Buffalo, NY Shooting

[NT2C]

Officials say a gunmans attack that killed 10 was a racially motivated hate crime

[majorhavoc]

Sigh.   

Well, it had been a while since the last mass shooting.  Like, two weeks.  Honestly, I don't know how to prep for this kind of thing.  Other than maintaining situational awareness and maybe finally get my CCW.

My only other thought, and one that I offer devoid of partisan judgement, is that this looks like further evidence of how divided society is across racial and cultural lines.  I expect to see more of this tragic shit in the coming weeks/years.  More than we've been seeing up to now, that is.

Stay vigilant and pray for the families. 

[NT2C]

Sigh.   

Well, it had been a while since the last mass shooting.  Like, two weeks.  Honestly, I don't know how to prep for this kind of thing.  Other than maintaining situational awareness and maybe finally get my CCW.

My only other thought, and one that I offer devoid of partisan judgement, is that this looks like further evidence of how divided society is across racial and cultural lines.  I expect to see more of this tragic shit in the coming weeks/years.  More than we've been seeing up to now, that is.

Stay vigilant and pray for the families. 

Without getting into the politics involved I'm going to note that obtaining a CCW in places like NYS can be nigh well impossible for the average person.  That leaves you with the difficult choice of breaking the law or following it.  Our position here at UFoZS is that you should always follow the law, even when you don't agree with it.  If you make the choice not to though you will face serious legal consequences if you ever find yourself needing to use your illegal weapon, and any "CCW insurance" you might have will probably not be valid.  My advice is to obey the law but if you can't do that reduce your exposure to that law as much as possible.  When I went to pick up Lamby in New Hampshire a few weeks back I had to face the fact that my CHP was not valid in most of the NE USA states.  Oh, I was good in NH, and in my home state of VA, so under federal law my having weapons locked in my luggage was legal (provided I followed magazine size limits, which I did) and I could limit to a small degree what states I passed through where I couldn't CCW, but there is no route between here and there that allowed me to CCW the whole way.  I did not like being that vulnerable.  I won't say what personal choices I made in the end but I was sure glad to put the NYS border behind me both going and coming back.

[Lodewijk]

The obvious "how to prepare for it" strategy is to stay the hell out of places where:

1) There are a lot of people in one place
2) There are severe bottlenecks at entry / exit

This is impractical for a lot of people due to working a job, needing groceries, etc, and mass shootings under the FBI definition are statistically rare to start with. If someone is truly concerned about it, go at off-peak hours when possible to avoid crowds and carry.

The 4chan shit on this one is disgusting but I really can't say I'm surprised that you're seeing it for a variety of reasons. The "slow motion riot" thing on random attacks that Malcolm Gladwell came up with (regardless of justification or method of the person carrying it out) seems to be holding up well as a model. That's a worthwhile read because it grounds the phenomenon in something other than TV talking points.

[Moab]

Horrific situation. This guy should be prosecuted to the full extent. These things are very rare though. But you wouldn't imagine that listening to major media.

Just to put mass shootings in perspective. You have a greater risk of being hit by lightening or killed by an animal.
You cannot view this attachment.

[Mr. E. Monkey]

My advice is to obey the law but if you can't do that reduce your exposure to that law as much as possible.

Likewise, it's much less likely that you'll be a victim of a mass shooting if you limit your exposure to places where they are more likely to occur (which seems to coincide, to some degree, to limiting your exposure to that law, which is all I'll say, because politics).  
  
Maintaining awareness of your surroundings is critical, of course, especially when you can't avoid that exposure/potential exposure.

[Ghost]

Sigh.   

Well, it had been a while since the last mass shooting.  Like, two weeks.  Honestly, I don't know how to prep for this kind of thing.  Other than maintaining situational awareness and maybe finally get my CCW.

My only other thought, and one that I offer devoid of partisan judgement, is that this looks like further evidence of how divided society is across racial and cultural lines.  I expect to see more of this tragic shit in the coming weeks/years.  More than we've been seeing up to now, that is.

Stay vigilant and pray for the families. 

Without getting into the politics involved I'm going to note that obtaining a CCW in places like NYS can be nigh well impossible for the average person.  That leaves you with the difficult choice of breaking the law or following it.  Our position here at UFoZS is that you should always follow the law, even when you don't agree with it.  If you make the choice not to though you will face serious legal consequences if you ever find yourself needing to use your illegal weapon, and any "CCW insurance" you might have will probably not be valid.  My advice is to obey the law but if you can't do that reduce your exposure to that law as much as possible.  When I went to pick up Lamby in New Hampshire a few weeks back I had to face the fact that my CHP was not valid in most of the NE USA states.  Oh, I was good in NH, and in my home state of VA, so under federal law my having weapons locked in my luggage was legal (provided I followed magazine size limits, which I did) and I could limit to a small degree what states I passed through where I couldn't CCW, but there is no route between here and there that allowed me to CCW the whole way.  I did not like being that vulnerable.  I won't say what personal choices I made in the end but I was sure glad to put the NYS border behind me both going and coming back.

The SC will be releasing their opinion on NYS Pistol and Rifle vs. Bruen next month. I listened to the live stream of the oral arguments back in November. Suffice to say the Justices were not impressed with NYS reasoning. 

It's a (likely) forgone conclusion that NYS (expletive removed <as someone living in western NY) "may issue" is getting struck down, 6-3. Even Roberts was skeptical of NYS defense.

Sorry but as someone who is counting the days NYS and their laws really stick in my craw.

Fortunately that's about to change, only question is by how much.

And note folks this isn't designed to be to political, more my frustration living in a state that likes to talk about their "toughest gun laws in the nation" while paying lip service to the 2nd Amendment. Fortunately just over 6 years till I leave this state. 

[Lodewijk]

Sigh.   

Well, it had been a while since the last mass shooting.  Like, two weeks.  Honestly, I don't know how to prep for this kind of thing.  Other than maintaining situational awareness and maybe finally get my CCW.

My only other thought, and one that I offer devoid of partisan judgement, is that this looks like further evidence of how divided society is across racial and cultural lines.  I expect to see more of this tragic shit in the coming weeks/years.  More than we've been seeing up to now, that is.

Stay vigilant and pray for the families. 

Without getting into the politics involved I'm going to note that obtaining a CCW in places like NYS can be nigh well impossible for the average person.  That leaves you with the difficult choice of breaking the law or following it.  Our position here at UFoZS is that you should always follow the law, even when you don't agree with it.  If you make the choice not to though you will face serious legal consequences if you ever find yourself needing to use your illegal weapon, and any "CCW insurance" you might have will probably not be valid.  My advice is to obey the law but if you can't do that reduce your exposure to that law as much as possible.  When I went to pick up Lamby in New Hampshire a few weeks back I had to face the fact that my CHP was not valid in most of the NE USA states.  Oh, I was good in NH, and in my home state of VA, so under federal law my having weapons locked in my luggage was legal (provided I followed magazine size limits, which I did) and I could limit to a small degree what states I passed through where I couldn't CCW, but there is no route between here and there that allowed me to CCW the whole way.  I did not like being that vulnerable.  I won't say what personal choices I made in the end but I was sure glad to put the NYS border behind me both going and coming back.

The SC will be releasing their opinion on NYS Pistol and Rifle vs. Bruen next month. I listened to the live stream of the oral arguments back in November. Suffice to say the Justices were not impressed with NYS reasoning.

It's a (likely) forgone conclusion that NYS (expletive removed <as someone living in western NY) "may issue" is getting struck down, 6-3. Even Roberts was skeptical of NYS defense.

Sorry but as someone who is counting the days NYS and their laws really stick in my craw.

Fortunately that's about to change, only question is by how much.

And note folks this isn't designed to be to political, more my frustration living in a state that likes to talk about their "toughest gun laws in the nation" while paying lip service to the 2nd Amendment. Fortunately just over 6 years till I leave this state.

I don't think you are being unfairly political. The last time New York got challenged in SCOTUS they changed the law because they knew it wasn't going to survive review.

The uncomfortable implication is that NY pressed for and passed at least one law that the state government knew to be unconstitutional.

Thankfully getting pistol permits is done locally, and local governments are not necessarily as restrictive as the city. I have family members who sailed through the process in Orange County where I grew up because the cops there generally support it.

Full disclosure, I fled the state as fast as I could and will never go back.

[NT2C]

Sigh.   

Well, it had been a while since the last mass shooting.  Like, two weeks.  Honestly, I don't know how to prep for this kind of thing.  Other than maintaining situational awareness and maybe finally get my CCW.

My only other thought, and one that I offer devoid of partisan judgement, is that this looks like further evidence of how divided society is across racial and cultural lines.  I expect to see more of this tragic shit in the coming weeks/years.  More than we've been seeing up to now, that is.

Stay vigilant and pray for the families. 

Without getting into the politics involved I'm going to note that obtaining a CCW in places like NYS can be nigh well impossible for the average person.  That leaves you with the difficult choice of breaking the law or following it.  Our position here at UFoZS is that you should always follow the law, even when you don't agree with it.  If you make the choice not to though you will face serious legal consequences if you ever find yourself needing to use your illegal weapon, and any "CCW insurance" you might have will probably not be valid.  My advice is to obey the law but if you can't do that reduce your exposure to that law as much as possible.  When I went to pick up Lamby in New Hampshire a few weeks back I had to face the fact that my CHP was not valid in most of the NE USA states.  Oh, I was good in NH, and in my home state of VA, so under federal law my having weapons locked in my luggage was legal (provided I followed magazine size limits, which I did) and I could limit to a small degree what states I passed through where I couldn't CCW, but there is no route between here and there that allowed me to CCW the whole way.  I did not like being that vulnerable.  I won't say what personal choices I made in the end but I was sure glad to put the NYS border behind me both going and coming back.

The SC will be releasing their opinion on NYS Pistol and Rifle vs. Bruen next month. I listened to the live stream of the oral arguments back in November. Suffice to say the Justices were not impressed with NYS reasoning.

It's a (likely) forgone conclusion that NYS (expletive removed <as someone living in western NY) "may issue" is getting struck down, 6-3. Even Roberts was skeptical of NYS defense.

Sorry but as someone who is counting the days NYS and their laws really stick in my craw.

Fortunately that's about to change, only question is by how much.

And note folks this isn't designed to be to political, more my frustration living in a state that likes to talk about their "toughest gun laws in the nation" while paying lip service to the 2nd Amendment. Fortunately just over 6 years till I leave this state.

Preaching to the choir, friend.  I was born in Brooklyn, lived there 44 years and then had to move out back in '01.  I spent a lot of time hiking/fishing/hunting most of the state.  It is/was "home" for me, except it's not.  It's not the place of my youth, my memories.  Driving through it twice when I brought Lamby down from New Hampshire was probably one of the hardest things I've done, emotionally, since my dad died.  I will always love NY, and will always curse what politics and good intentions gone wild have turned it into.

[Moab]

My son got the video the shooter took. From a friend this morning. For some reason whem he tried to play it for me on his phone. It wouldnt work. But my son said its horrific.

The kid gets out of his car and immediately shoots 3 people. There is an older guy that isnt dead yet. And the kid shoots him in the head from close range. His skull splits.

Then he shoots thru the stores windows. Goes inside and finds a guy hiding. Is about to shoot him. But realizes the guy is white. And apologizes and doesnt shoot him.

He also had the n word painted on the barrel if his ar.

My son was shocked by it. As was I just from the description.

I also read someplace that all the weapons were ny legal. Except he modified the ar to allow something. But I don't remember what. Maybe to accept mags or something? I don't recall.

I'm shocked by how insane this guy had to be to see that kind of destruction, close up, for the first time in his life. And not vomit on himself. Or otherwise be left in enough shock to even slow down. Even when you punch someone in the face for the first time and they start bleeding. Its a shock. I can't imagine doing that and continuing. Kid has to be completely insane. Obviously.

[Ghost]

Insane? No, evil is evil.

[Lodewijk]

My son got the video the shooter took. From a friend this morning. For some reason whem he tried to play it for me on his phone. It wouldnt work. But my son said its horrific.

The kid gets out of his car and immediately shoots 3 people. There is an older guy that isnt dead yet. And the kid shoots him in the head from close range. His skull splits.

Then he shoots thru the stores windows. Goes inside and finds a guy hiding. Is about to shoot him. But realizes the guy is white. And apologizes and doesnt shoot him.

He also had the n word painted on the barrel if his ar.

My son was shocked by it. As was I just from the description.

I also read someplace that all the weapons were ny legal. Except he modified the ar to allow something. But I don't remember what. Maybe to accept mags or something? I don't recall.

I'm shocked by how insane this guy had to be to see that kind of destruction, close up, for the first time in his life. And not vomit on himself. Or otherwise be left in enough shock to even slow down. Even when you punch someone in the face for the first time and they start bleeding. Its a shock. I can't imagine doing that and continuing. Kid has to be completely insane. Obviously.

As horrifying as they are, I think watching these things - at least one or two - is actually a good idea if you're armed. Hideously, the POV video you can find on this guy, the Christchurch guy, etc is probably the most instructive because it shows you more or less what they saw and how they acted on what they could see.

First, it's worth watching because they're real and drive home how fast violence like this is. If I was walking through that parking lot, I'd probably be dead. I would not heroically save the day and my kids would grow up without a dad. Which means you have to start thinking about what realistic defensive actions look like (i.e. things like don't be there in the first place).

Second, because they show what those guys do that works for them, and what doesn't. Buffalo Guy doesn't plug anyone he can't directly see in the video, and he uses the long open corridor at the checkout registers to control the front of the store. When that fails to provide (ugh, christ... "valid") targets, he moves further in.

It's hard viewing. But I think anyone carrying a gun themselves should at least think about watching them. And I won't lie to you, some of them do take time to shake off.

I am almost certainly in the minority on this. That's OK. I think most people know upfront if they'll get personal utility out of it or not.

Edit: Follow the law, obviously. I think NZ took a very aggressive stance on Christchurch footage.

[Moab]

My son got the video the shooter took. From a friend this morning. For some reason whem he tried to play it for me on his phone. It wouldnt work. But my son said its horrific.

The kid gets out of his car and immediately shoots 3 people. There is an older guy that isnt dead yet. And the kid shoots him in the head from close range. His skull splits.

Then he shoots thru the stores windows. Goes inside and finds a guy hiding. Is about to shoot him. But realizes the guy is white. And apologizes and doesnt shoot him.

He also had the n word painted on the barrel if his ar.

My son was shocked by it. As was I just from the description.

I also read someplace that all the weapons were ny legal. Except he modified the ar to allow something. But I don't remember what. Maybe to accept mags or something? I don't recall.

I'm shocked by how insane this guy had to be to see that kind of destruction, close up, for the first time in his life. And not vomit on himself. Or otherwise be left in enough shock to even slow down. Even when you punch someone in the face for the first time and they start bleeding. Its a shock. I can't imagine doing that and continuing. Kid has to be completely insane. Obviously.

As horrifying as they are, I think watching these things - at least one or two - is actually a good idea if you're armed. Hideously, the POV video you can find on this guy, the Christchurch guy, etc is probably the most instructive because it shows you more or less what they saw and how they acted on what they could see.

First, it's worth watching because they're real and drive home how fast violence like this is. If I was walking through that parking lot, I'd probably be dead. I would not heroically save the day and my kids would grow up without a dad. Which means you have to start thinking about what realistic defensive actions look like (i.e. things like don't be there in the first place).

Second, because they show what those guys do that works for them, and what doesn't. Buffalo Guy doesn't plug anyone he can't directly see in the video, and he uses the long open corridor at the checkout registers to control the front of the store. When that fails to provide (ugh, christ... "valid") targets, he moves further in.

It's hard viewing. But I think anyone carrying a gun themselves should at least think about watching them. And I won't lie to you, some of them do take time to shake off.

I am almost certainly in the minority on this. That's OK. I think most people know upfront if they'll get personal utility out of it or not.

Edit: Follow the law, obviously. I think NZ took a very aggressive stance on Christchurch footage.

I agree completely. Its why I asked my son to show it to me.

[Mr. E. Monkey]

It is/was "home" for me, except it's not.  It's not the place of my youth, my memories.

I know I'm getting way off topic (and I'll stop, I promise), but I was in Oregon last spring for a job interview, and I had a similar feeling.


On topic, I agree with Ghost.  Evil can rationalize what others might think would be insane.

[Lambykins]

It is/was "home" for me, except it's not.  It's not the place of my youth, my memories.

I know I'm getting way off topic (and I'll stop, I promise), but I was in Oregon last spring for a job interview, and I had a similar feeling.


On topic, I agree with Ghost.  Evil can rationalize what others might think would be insane.

On the topic of "You can't go home again"...
I graduated high school in this area. I spent a lot of my summer vacations here with my grandparents. Mainly my maternal grandparents that had a farm out in the county.
I had 6 of my 7 kids here. Married here several times.
Left this place over 20 years ago because I saw then it was getting rotten to the core.
It has gotten so, so, much worse than I could have imagined.

On topic...I am nervous at work. We have a great many homeless, mentally ill, drug addicted customers/loiterers.
We are not allowed to carry a firearm. HOWEVER we do have a *tire-thumper* under the counter. I am looking into other legal options here (pepper spray, taser, etc). Many of the less desired clientele carry large hunting knives on their hip when they come in.
I have two doors. I lock one at dusk, which prevents anyone coming into the store out of my line of sight. We do not allow non-employees to use our bathroom. The bathroom is not a safe haven if shit goes down. The door is flimsy and could easily be breached. Similarly, the beer/drink cooler would be a trap, as it has one door and no way out except that door if someone came in behind me.

Some of these folks are sad examples of addiction. But there are some...you can see evil in their eyes, and I am not being over-dramatic. They come in spoiling for a fight...just waiting for you to say the "wrong" thing. These are the ones that make me reach for the tire thumper.
It does not matter what their grief is...race, religion, age, you name it, they are angry at something or someone. One woman recently came in and demanded a cup of coffee and food because it was OWED to her because the cashier had a job she was OBLIGATED to support her. When free stuff was not given to her, she went outside and busted the windows on the cashiers vehicle. (I was not yet hired, this was about 2 months ago...also, the judge fined the woman and we see her walking past the store every day. She's homeless, so the fine will never be paid, I guess)

As for the young man in the Buffalo shooting....indeed, evil walks among us. What made him so evil and angry that he would do this? The internet, 4chan, school, tv, his parents...?
In some countries (the UK for example I think) they advise to *Run, Hide and Notify* in the case of a workplace shooting. At the IGA our workplace module on computer was "Run, Hide, FIGHT". We were told to run and get out of the area as fast as possible. If not possible to run, hide from the aggressor as effectively as possible. If neither of these options are achievable, fight back with anything and everything. As the IGA I worked at had previously had a shooting (25-26 years ago) this was taken very damn seriously. During regular day shift, at least 2 managers were carrying. At night, at least 1. We were never told who was carrying, but most of us had a pretty good idea who was. (NT2C, the day we went through, it was probably Lance plus the meat manager. I also saw a guy in the freight dept that was *printing*, so he must have gotten permission to carry)

On to laws (without getting political)...
Even in states and localities with stringent gun laws, wouldn't it make sense that high impact areas (concert venues, stores, etc.) have it legally obtainable for them to have armed employees on site? If a shooter knows that a location has armed employees, wouldn't they be less likely to target that business? Except for the few extraordinarily stupid criminals that have tried to rob gun stores, most gun stores don't have a problem with armed robbers.(To see exceptions, see videos on youtube)

[Mr. E. Monkey]

Lamby,

I hope you never have to use the tire-thumper, much less anything else, but of course, preparation > hoping.  Worst case, what about keeping a can of wasp spray down there?  I know it's not even close to ideal, and I'm not sure how, legally, that would work, but it'd have to be better than critically injured or dead.  And you're ready if the murder hornets make their move (are murder hornets even still a thing?).  

Obviously, this is not legal advice, or probably even good advice. 


I ended up in another job where I am not allowed to carry (federal regulations say it's a no-no), but I'm fortunate that at least I'm not dealing with the public very much.  


I don't even want to talk about active shooter training.  Did that for an office that was an hour's drive away from town...and it was every bit as stupid as you'd expect.  

[Lambykins]

Lamby,

I hope you never have to use the tire-thumper, much less anything else, but of course, preparation > hoping.  Worst case, what about keeping a can of wasp spray down there?  I know it's not even close to ideal, and I'm not sure how, legally, that would work, but it'd have to be better than critically injured or dead.  And you're ready if the murder hornets make their move (are murder hornets even still a thing?). 

Obviously, this is not legal advice, or probably even good advice. 


I ended up in another job where I am not allowed to carry (federal regulations say it's a no-no), but I'm fortunate that at least I'm not dealing with the public very much. 


I don't even want to talk about active shooter training.  Did that for an office that was an hour's drive away from town...and it was every bit as stupid as you'd expect.   

I have actually used wasp spray for self defense in the past and it was quite...effective.
I'll get a can tomorrow.

[RickOShea]

I also read someplace that all the weapons were ny legal. Except he modified the ar to allow something. But I don't remember what. Maybe to accept mags or something? I don't recall.

It appears to be an old 20" A2 rifle with a fixed carry handle. It also appears that 30 rounds were fired before the first reload, and then 10 rounds after that.

IIRC, New York state has had a 7 round mag capacity limit for a while now, and I'm not sure if pre-owned mags were grandfathered. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about NYS laws can chime in.

[Lodewijk]

I also read someplace that all the weapons were ny legal. Except he modified the ar to allow something. But I don't remember what. Maybe to accept mags or something? I don't recall.

It appears to be an old 20" A2 rifle with a fixed carry handle. It also appears that 30 rounds were fired before the first reload, and then 10 rounds after that.

IIRC, New York state has had a 7 round mag capacity limit for a while now, and I'm not sure if pre-owned mags were grandfathered. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about NYS laws can chime in.

That's correct, but they're reporting now that he modified the lower to take standard mags sourced from *wherever*. Rifle was bought legally in NY.

I would've said DFM / Cali-legal setup, because we (at least) tended to make one ban-state model and call it a day. But it's hard to tell from the low-info reporting. I bet the answer could be found on /k/ because those sperglords are frickin' fast, but I'm in the open at work and I've had enough of monitoring the assholes on 4chan for a while anyway.

It's been a long time but I don't really remember us manufacturing anything like that under the BFI rollmark... maybe DPMS with a bullet button though. So could be Nu-Bushy (if so, welcome to the blame party fellas).

Edit: Oops, yeah BFI had ORCs and stuff with bullet buttons too.

Double edit: FWIW /k/ is saying the kid's writeup includes details on driling out a mag lock... NYS apparently says pinned magazines are OK.

[RickOShea]

Double edit: FWIW /k/ is saying the kid's writeup includes details on driling out a mag lock... NYS apparently says pinned magazines are OK.

Ah, I see......I knew about Cali bullet-buttons, but I didn't know about the shear pin thingy used to keep a mag "permanently" fixed in the lower.