2nd line (combat load) theory and discussion

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?

I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.

Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fa t I've never heard of this company until this past year.

Isnt ar500 or whatever its called cheaper?

Depends on what package you get. AR500 seems to have sales on their stuff pretty frequently.

I've got a Freeman plate carrier and those seem to go on sale pretty often and seem to be the entry level carriers from AR500.

[Moab]

Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?

I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.

Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fa t I've never heard of this company until this past year.

Isnt ar500 or whatever its called cheaper?

Depends on what package you get. AR500 seems to have sales on their stuff pretty frequently.

I've got a Freeman plate carrier and those seem to go on sale pretty often and seem to be the entry level carriers from AR500.

Classic sells alot of good stuff. And seems to have a great reputation. I couldn't imagine them not standing behind their products. They had a glock stock for sale last week that i wanted. But i passed. There prices are some of the best. And if i didn't live in CA I'd do there giveaways. They give away some great rifles 

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

I've ordered three guns from Classic and they've been very helpful in getting my order placed (I usually call to place an order instead of doing it online.)

My last one was an SDS Imports/Tisas B45 Duty 1911.

As for the contests, I enter them when I want to, but I've yet to win anything. I'd have loved to have won that Barrett M82A1 and AK underfolder built by Brandon Herrera, but some dude in Kentucky won it instead.

Hope he has fun with either one.

[Mr. E. Monkey]

They give away some great rifles

...but they do it wrong.  They're supposed to give them to me!   

[Moab]

They give away some great rifles

...but they do it wrong.  They're supposed to give them to me!   

I dont think tjey give any of them to cali members.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

They give away some great rifles

...but they do it wrong.  They're supposed to give them to me!   

I got excited one time when I thought I saw my name as the winner, but then I noticed the city and state were wrong.

[Moab]

Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?

I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.

Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fact I've never heard of this company until this past year.

Have you looked at LAPG too? They have their own line now. That seems pretty reasonable. I just got an email from them.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

It's actually been a few years since I checked LAPG, Moab.

I think it was back in like 2011 when I was last on their site.

[Moab]

It's actually been a few years since I checked LAPG, Moab.

I think it was back in like 2011 when I was last on their site.

They have gotten alot better. I just got one of there school backpacks for edc. Its 20 bucks. Pretty great for what it is. They also have kind of a 5.11 knock off brand of packs.

https://lapolicegear.com/lapg-bg-commuter-pack.html

[Mr. E. Monkey]

That's not a bad looking bag!  Looks like a nice balance between "everything having a place" and "pouches everywhere."

[Moab]

They have a whole line of backpacks and rifle cases that are very economical.


https://lapolicegear.com/brands/la-police-gear/lapg-tactical-bags-cases.html

[Lodewijk]

So what do you guys think support gear for a bolt-action rifle might look like? Given how different the end-use is from a carbine, I'm guessing some kind of small pack.

My initial thought is to adapt some of what people carry for a typical precision match, borrow other elements from a vanilla hunting pack, and include one or two things you'd want on a chest rig or plate carrier (i.e IFAK). Have to pivot gun dollars away from my carbine and into my .308 build, because it's starting to sound like I'm going to need it completed for a non-optional hunting trip next year. Might as well build around it as I go. Would also conceptually go with my 700 Police in .223, which is finally set up the way I want it. But that is intended for shorter ranges.

In ZS terms, seeing potential to have this be a one-stop-shop for range use, hunting use, and potentially serving as a supplement to neighborhood security. In my James Wesley Rawles fever dreams I could see OP work or overwatch for like a neighborhood checkpoint (i.e. backing up carbines), but I have to admit those sound a bit ridiculous. So I have been going with "support gear for all lawful purposes" in my head.

So far my braindump sketch is something like this:

- Rear bag
- Some kind of larger positional bag (though I've only played with a few)
- Ammo mgmt & dope, etc.
- IFAK
- Sharpies / multitool / whatever else is currently in my admin pouch
- Compact binos
- Waterproof notebook

Obviously a Kestrel and a rangefinder are sort of implied but I don't have the money for those yet.

Hunting is sort of an afterthought because I just don't have the time for it and it really isn't a big interest of mine, but I'm going to be expected to do it by family members so would also toss in like a gut hook, etc.

What do you guys think?

[woodsghost]

So what do you guys think support gear for a bolt-action rifle might look like? Given how different the end-use is from a carbine, I'm guessing some kind of small pack.

My initial thought is to adapt some of what people carry for a typical precision match, borrow other elements from a vanilla hunting pack, and include one or two things you'd want on a chest rig or plate carrier (i.e IFAK). Have to pivot gun dollars away from my carbine and into my .308 build, because it's starting to sound like I'm going to need it completed for a non-optional hunting trip next year. Might as well build around it as I go. Would also conceptually go with my 700 Police in .223, which is finally set up the way I want it. But that is intended for shorter ranges.

In ZS terms, seeing potential to have this be a one-stop-shop for range use, hunting use, and potentially serving as a supplement to neighborhood security. In my James Wesley Rawles fever dreams I could see OP work or overwatch for like a neighborhood checkpoint (i.e. backing up carbines), but I have to admit those sound a bit ridiculous. So I have been going with "support gear for all lawful purposes" in my head.

So far my braindump sketch is something like this:

- Rear bag
- Some kind of larger positional bag (though I've only played with a few)
- Ammo mgmt & dope, etc.
- IFAK
- Sharpies / multitool / whatever else is currently in my admin pouch
- Compact binos
- Waterproof notebook

Obviously a Kestrel and a rangefinder are sort of implied but I don't have the money for those yet.

Hunting is sort of an afterthought because I just don't have the time for it and it really isn't a big interest of mine, but I'm going to be expected to do it by family members so would also toss in like a gut hook, etc.

What do you guys think?

I don't know what kind of shooter you are, but for both hunting and overwatch and "all lawful purposes" I would plan on 0-300 being my range. I would also set up with a lower powered scope, but that is not quite LBE.

For LBE I would consider a buttstock pouch with ammo and dope gear.

I assume this rifle does not have detachable mags.

For body I would look at IFAK, bipod, something for stock rest (socks?), something to carry a 3x3 or 4x4 camo net, bug dope, snacks, water, sniper veil/bug net/sweat rag, multi-tool if not already carried, cleaning kit (minimal, just if it takes a dump in water or snow), locktite (backup), whatever you want for gut/skinning knife (mine is a Mora), saw (bone/wood, folding or sheath).

If playing Call of Duty or otherwise concerned, carry pistol and ammo. I worked for a guy who carried a bow for elk and a 10mm for bears. But "10mm is too expensive to practice with, so I just load it up and carry it." We all make choices.

Bear spray, depending on hunting situation.

Smoke grenades, depending on Call of Duty position.

With the right pack I would ignore the bipod & butt rest.

Spare socks, survival kit, tarp or poncho, knit hat.

Just some ideas.

[Lodewijk]

I don't know what kind of shooter you are, but for both hunting and overwatch and "all lawful purposes" I would plan on 0-300 being my range. I would also set up with a lower powered scope, but that is not quite LBE.

For LBE I would consider a buttstock pouch with ammo and dope gear.

I assume this rifle does not have detachable mags.

For body I would look at IFAK, bipod, something for stock rest (socks?), something to carry a 3x3 or 4x4 camo net, bug dope, snacks, water, sniper veil/bug net/sweat rag, multi-tool if not already carried, cleaning kit (minimal, just if it takes a dump in water or snow), locktite (backup), whatever you want for gut/skinning knife (mine is a Mora), saw (bone/wood, folding or sheath).

If playing Call of Duty or otherwise concerned, carry pistol and ammo. I worked for a guy who carried a bow for elk and a 10mm for bears. But "10mm is too expensive to practice with, so I just load it up and carry it." We all make choices.

Bear spray, depending on hunting situation.

Smoke grenades, depending on Call of Duty position.

With the right pack I would ignore the bipod & butt rest.

Spare socks, survival kit, tarp or poncho, knit hat.

Just some ideas.

Good food for thought. Thank you.

To clarify - I'm building off of a 700 SPS Tactical in .308 to learn the basics of long-range shooting, now that I live in a place where that is a reasonably accessible thing to do, and (along with a similar build in .223, which I put together for Appleseed KDs) it will be my primary rifle for a while. I have a grab-and-go pistol bag, and a grab-and-go rimfire bag that I've dialed in over a number of squirrel seasons and Appleseeds (shooting and instructing), but I do not have one for either of my centerfire bolt-action rifles.

As a side note, the only reason I went with .308 is because it is what happened to be available on my last day at Remington. I bought it before I lost my employee discount, which was a few hundred bucks at the time.

All of my bolt guns have stock pouches. Like most people I use strips of yoga mat or mousepad to build a cheekpiece and then strap it all down with a stock pouch. No detachable mags as of right now.

My .223 has a 3.5-10x, which seems to cover .223 distances well enough. I will most likely be using a 5-25x and fancy reticle (or something similar) on the .308 for obvious reasons.

As far as what kind of shooting I do - the intent is to learn how to shoot past 500 yards and take my first few precision rifle classes with it (again, because accessibility seems pretty good compared to where I was in the East). I'm an old Appleseed guy and was shooting Distinguished before they handed out patches for that... I don't have a lot of interest in service rifle or high power, so this is the next logical step skills-wise. I have seen a few other Appleseed guys try to make the leap to more precision-style matches and not have it go cleanly, so I'm looking to take it slow and learn.

I don't know if I have a use for camo netting, but a skeeter net might not be a bad idea. And mentioning a tarp does prompt the question of a ground cloth, which doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Shamefully... yes, I will admit to having a shemagh in the "rifle bag" pile.

Not intended to be a LRRP larp bag (that's more or less what my bushcraft pack is for). Just something to go with the rifle that covers more than just a range.

[RoneKiln]

In ZS terms, seeing potential to have this be a one-stop-shop for range use, hunting use, and potentially serving as a supplement to neighborhood security. In my James Wesley Rawles fever dreams I could see OP work or overwatch for like a neighborhood checkpoint (i.e. backing up carbines), but I have to admit those sound a bit ridiculous. So I have been going with "support gear for all lawful purposes" in my head.

"Coolness factor" is almost always rooted in the ridiculous. As long as we're self aware and have fun with it, it's cool and worthwhile. Hopefully that's all it ever is.

But start asking the same questions cause you're concerned about having to defend against snipers at 500 yards as part of your normal day working security at the local mall and... well... Ok, I gotta admit I sometimes miss those idiots posting. Some of the greatest comedy I've ever read was written by some of those guys.

[RonnyRonin]

I'll admit non-detachable magazine ammo management isn't something I give much thought to...since stripper clips are almost never an option with modern guns I'd say you are limited to a pouch for loose ammo, a bandolier for individual rounds, or some kind of shot card like the shotgun luddites use.

An HPG kit bag might serve your purposes for things like binos and accessories, but personally I'd want DBMs for anything beyond normal hunting use; and even then I'd prefer it.

Like Woodsghost said a good handgun might be essential to focus on for a backup to the bolt gat; might even be worth considering how to bump that handgun up to a borderline PDW like a glock with an Endo Adaptor and extended mags, or an RDS to extend the handgun into the awkward middle range where most people struggle to be accurate enough with a handgun or fast enough with a bolt.

[Lodewijk]

I'll admit non-detachable magazine ammo management isn't something I give much thought to...since stripper clips are almost never an option with modern guns I'd say you are limited to a pouch for loose ammo, a bandolier for individual rounds, or some kind of shot card like the shotgun luddites use.

Appleseed actually forced me to attempt solving for this - ten rounds to a stage on the AQT and no transitioning with a loaded rifle means you have to be creative to avoid dealing with loose rounds. The best solution I came up with was to find a stock pouch that held eight rounds (i.e. TacOps) and add a two-round SAP holder, then single-load every round for each stage. Ten slot Bam-doliers from Triad were the quickest way I found to refill everything between stages. This is all undoubtedly well beyond mallninja, but given the ruleset for the game I was playing it was not an unreasonable solution. For better or worse.

There was a period of time where I drilled this relatively often. It is not ideal, but it can be done under AQT time constraints.

Just to be totally clear, I have NO illusions about the high-speed defensive application of a 15 pound bolt-action rifle. Navigating all that just to play a gun game was pretty sobering.

[MacWa77ace]

I'll admit non-detachable magazine ammo management isn't something I give much thought to...since stripper clips are almost never an option with modern guns I'd say you are limited to a pouch for loose ammo, a bandolier for individual rounds, or some kind of shot card like the shotgun luddites use.

Appleseed actually forced me to attempt solving for this - ten rounds to a stage on the AQT and no transitioning with a loaded rifle means you have to be creative to avoid dealing with loose rounds. The best solution I came up with was to find a stock pouch that held eight rounds (i.e. TacOps) and add a two-round SAP holder, then single-load every round for each stage. Ten slot Bam-doliers from Triad were the quickest way I found to refill everything between stages. This is all undoubtedly well beyond mallninja, but given the ruleset for the game I was playing it was not an unreasonable solution. For better or worse.

There was a period of time where I drilled this relatively often. It is not ideal, but it can be done under AQT time constraints.

Just to be totally clear, I have NO illusions about the high-speed defensive application of a 15 pound bolt-action rifle. Navigating all that just to play a gun game was pretty sobering.

Yeah, I'm thinking that bolt action rifles en mass might be effective as defensive weapons, but a single man with a bolt action bring to mind the scenes from 'inglorious basterds' stolz der nation bell tower scene or 'saving private ryan' bell tower scene. I wouldn't want to put myself in that situation.

But there's tons of ways to carry single rounds for semi quick access. Side saddles mounted to buttstocks, or ammo cards on slings, plus the pouches that were used back in the great war on bandoleers. Then to restock those 'quick' access solutions you can just carry boxes in your pack/bag.

Another technique i've seen is to put 3 rounds in between your fingers on your off hand. But that is more of a single shot breach loading technique.

[Mr. E. Monkey]

But start asking the same questions cause you're concerned about having to defend against snipers at 500 yards as part of your normal day working security at the local mall and... well... Ok, I gotta admit I sometimes miss those idiots posting. Some of the greatest comedy I've ever read was written by some of those guys.

Oh man...Gecko45, wasn't it?  That takes me waaay back.






On topic, if a flashlight isn't part of your first line gear, Lodewijk (I'm sure you're way ahead of me on this one), I would consider adding one, or adding spare batteries for it if you already have one in your loadout.  Hand-held, not weapon mounted, and maybe with a colored filter.  Might be useful for hunting as far as finding your blind or firing position in the dark, or tracking a blood trail in the evening.  Also potentially helpful as a signaling device.  Depending on the cool-guy factor, a laser might be helpful in that regard as well, but probably not enough to seriously worry about adding it to the kit.

[Lodewijk]

I have a Stylus Pro that I stuff in my pockets everyday but that doesn't really check the same boxes. A bigger light that'll take filters is a really good idea, I hadn't thought of that.