Body Armor?

[Limon Man]

This is a subject that I'm on the fence about.  There is some obvious utility to armor plates, especially in a dangerous area.  My issue with possessing armor is based on reduction in mobility, high expense, and personal philosophy of avoidance rather than active pursuit of conflict.  If I have time to kit up with my plate carrier, then I will probably have time to bug out and evade the threat.  I personally can't think of a realistic situation where I need to strap on a plate carrier.

Can you convince me otherwise?

[woodsghost]

I woke up one morning in 2020 and found out there had been a riot in town. Some of the people in the apartment complex bought guns to be ready for round 2. So what if the riot had come down my street while I was sleeping? Afterwards there were more riots but I was more aware. Buildings were burned, some protesters and almost every police officer in the city and county was injured. Severity of injuries varied.

In rural areas in both South Africa and Venezuela people in rural areas are being killed. In SA it appears racially motivated. In Venezuela it appears to be just financially motivated. But a gang shows up at your door in fast vehicles, jump out, grab you and family, torture you and family until they are sure they have the info to all your valuables, kill you and move on. It happens day or night and is fairly common in both countries.

There are suburban examples of someone posting "this is a racist house" and mobs show up to burn the house down. My big example is from 2020. The home owner was very surprised to find people outside his door burning his house down. I don't know that anyone actually vets the information fed to mobs, so I don't know how true or false the data was that the home owner was "racist."

These situations seem difficult to avoid or E&E, but let's look at that...E&E...

Imagine you have enough time to get in a car and try to drive away from the situation. In an urban area, like Minneapolis in 2020, there was a lot of violence and shooting randomly (still is, but reduced from what I have heard), both during the riots and after. Do you want to drive out/bug out and risk stray (or purposeful) bullets finding you in the car? Or would you rather have some level of armor?


Just some thoughts and some real world examples. Armor is not something everyone needs, but sometimes one cannot escape the bad situation.

There are multiple types of armor at multiple price points. If that is something you want to discuss, I'm happy to do so.

Fundamentally, the ideas of "avoidance and E&E" depend on prior knowledge of the threat and having enough time to react. I think "in general" that is true, but non-preppers say "In general, most people don't face disasters."

[flybynight]

  If I have time to kit up with my plate carrier, then I will probably have time to bug out and evade the threat. 

Holy crap, how long does it take you to put on a plate carrier?

[Lodewijk]

Just some thoughts and some real world examples. Armor is not something everyone needs, but sometimes one cannot escape the bad situation.

I've been halfway wondering about armor too since moving from a pretty low-density region to a higher-density region.

Just wondering, where do you think armor fits in terms of prioritization, and is there anything that efficiently checks the 80/20 box? My guess is that it's pretty far down the list but interested in your thoughts.

I'd always been focused on "just set up a lightweight rig for shooting" but plate carriers don't seem as crazy as they used to.

[woodsghost]

Just some thoughts and some real world examples. Armor is not something everyone needs, but sometimes one cannot escape the bad situation.

I've been halfway wondering about armor too since moving from a pretty low-density region to a higher-density region.

Just wondering, where do you think armor fits in terms of prioritization, and is there anything that efficiently checks the 80/20 box? My guess is that it's pretty far down the list but interested in your thoughts.

I'd always been focused on "just set up a lightweight rig for shooting" but plate carriers don't seem as crazy as they used to.

There are people here who are more knowledgeable than I am, but in my mind, 80/20 in an urban area means getting a lvl IIIA vest for shotgun and pistol threats. Very light weight too and comfortable. But if it's 95F, nothing is comfortable.

Where is armor in priority? In my mind, I want a gun, first aid, training, hand tools for basic needs, food water, batteries, all for 4 weeks. For an urban area it is a higher priority for me.

But these are my opinions and I have not shared the logic behind my thoughts. But maybe the logic is obvious or maybe it is worth discussing.

If one is asking "do I pay rent or get armor?" I would say pay rent. If one is asking "do I buy another gun or get armor?" I would probably get armor. I'm leaving out a lot of detail, but in general, that would be the advice I give to most situations.

[MacWa77ace]

This is a subject that I'm on the fence about.  There is some obvious utility to armor plates, especially in a dangerous area.  My issue with possessing armor is based on reduction in mobility, high expense, and personal philosophy of avoidance rather than active pursuit of conflict.  If I have time to kit up with my plate carrier, then I will probably have time to bug out and evade the threat.  I personally can't think of a realistic situation where I need to strap on a plate carrier.

Can you convince me otherwise?

So you're bugging out due to TEOTWAWKI. And are walking to your car to load up. Some guy runs up and shoots you in the chest to steal your stuff. Now, are you alive or dead because you were or were not wearing armor.

You're bugging out in your car, speeding down the street to avoid the cataclysmic event behind you. Your kids and wife are with you, snap snap snap snap snap, your car is pelted by gunfire. Was everyone wearing their armor?

Armor doesn't have to be plates, soft armor stops pistol rounds. And you can get shot running away too. There're those types of people out there.

[RoneKiln]

I place a higher value on concealable soft armer that will stop handguns.

1) I don't want to draw attention during bad times, and plate carriers tend to draw attention.
2) Handguns are more likely what would be used against me.
3) Concealable armor may also be more useful during very tense times that have not truly turned immediately bad yet.

I have seriously considered investing in a good quality properly fitting concealable vest. I already got an amazing deal (gift of thanks in exchange for helping with a minor home remodel) on a used one that's a little big for me. It's hard for me to justify investing that much money for real good when I already have pretty good.

I'm not going to wander around outside if a riot is happening a few blocks from my home. But a riot across town won't stop me from going to work. What if the riot moves? What if it erupts while I'm at work and I need to get home? Earthquakes are a risk in my area. What if a quake is just bad enough to disrupt services and crime is rampant but we're not really in a complete breakdown scenario?

There's a lot of grey area between a safe peaceful society and violent anarchy. Concealable armor may increase my safety if we enter any of those grey areas.

I also agree with Woods comments on priorities.

[boskone]

Perhaps it's a difference of location, being in a fairly rural area (and the nearest urban area being nicely stable), but armor would probably be just about the last thing on my priority list.

Well after "buying a lot of bbq to make friends with the neighbors".

[echo83]

I saw more usefulness in concealable armor versus a plate carrier when making my purchase, so I got a Level 2 soft vest.

My reasoning? It's suitable for the vast majority of threats I'd face on a daily basis; pistol rounds, and on a really bad day, buckshot. The bad guys around me don't seem to be carrying anything bigger than that. Further, it's light enough that I actually wear it, instead of wishing that I had.

I haven't ruled out a plate carrier, but for now I'd rather spend money on more training, ammunition and other more frequently used preps.

OP, what's your threat environment like? And are you purchasing armor for daily wear, or to toss behind your car seat and put on if things suddenly go sideways?

[Limon Man]

My threat environment is mostly urban (Texas cities) with extensive travel down rural highways in West Texas, South Texas, and the border region.  It would be kept in the car unless needed, and I don't foresee myself running to the sound of the guns. 

My conundrum is this: if I'm in a place where I need any armor, then I need to be prepared for rifle fire.  Heat is also a significant factor in my AO, both for storage in the car and while wearing during the boogaloo.  I already have a light chest rig built around handgun support and first aid (HPG Kit Bag).

I'm not opposed to the concept of armor.  But when I look at adding the weight and heat retention if a vest on top of my rifle/other equipment, the expense of a quality armor setup, I'm putting this towards the bottom of my priorities.

[woodsghost]

My threat environment is mostly urban (Texas cities) with extensive travel down rural highways in West Texas, South Texas, and the border region.  It would be kept in the car unless needed, and I don't foresee myself running to the sound of the guns. 

My conundrum is this: if I'm in a place where I need any armor, then I need to be prepared for rifle fire.  Heat is also a significant factor in my AO, both for storage in the car and while wearing during the boogaloo.  I already have a light chest rig built around handgun support and first aid (HPG Kit Bag).

I'm not opposed to the concept of armor.  But when I look at adding the weight and heat retention if a vest on top of my rifle/other equipment, the expense of a quality armor setup, I'm putting this towards the bottom of my priorities.

If you do ever get armor, stay away from Spectra or the various forms of UHMWPE for Texas car storage. Kevlar will do best for pistol/shotgun in that situation. If you decide to look into rifle armor, post up and we can all discuss options if you like.

[RonnyRonin]

Soft vests are too cheap and handguns too prevalent to NOT get soft armor in my opinion. Really, I buy and sell soft vests fairly regularly between $20-50 and the importance of a perfect fit is overstated in my opinion. I've worn everything from a small female vest to a large long male vest, and while coverage and comfort varied neither was particularly noticeable.

WHEN to wear your vest is far more variable of course; I had friends that put on a soft vest any time they left the house during the election ruckus after seeing a few people get shot in their cars by in-road protesters. I did not wear mine, but I threw it in the car because why not; I already owned one and it wouldn't do me any good at home. I've considered leaving one in my car's seat backers just so its own hand if there is trouble while I'm at work because, once again, I already own it so the additional investment of keeping it close approaches zero (of course don't keep UHMWPE in your car in hot weather or Woodsghost will haunt your dreams, but I have some pure kevlar stuff).

For home defense I think it makes sense to armor up if you ever hear a bump in the night; the additional time is very small and you can call it extra wake-up time if you want to justify it even more.

I am personally a fan of level II vests, they are cheap and few people want them as IIIA is the gold standard. The main differences are .44 mag protection, some hot exotic rounds, and 12 gauge slugs. If money isn't tight a IIIA vest has few drawbacks these days, the new ones are quite thin and light. I don't consider .44 mag to be a common threat much of anywhere, and especially not in my area. The crime stats I see say 9mm/.380/.40/.45/.22 is the common threat as you would expect, and my personal theory is if some criminal is obsessed with having more powa they are more likely to get a 5.56 pistol than a .44 mag these days.




Plates are more debatable I think most people will agree; I got mine when they were cheap and much easier to justify, and have a physique in which I can easily hide them (I've slipped them by my wife, my shooting friends, non-shooting friends, and worn them around town enough that this isn't idle speculation). Nowadays you can still get some pretty darn good plates for $200/pair, and if you wear them by themselves the mobility hit is fairly minimal.

Conceptually I don't think they are as much for the running firefights that people like to straw-man preppers into dreaming about as they are for the sort of armed community protection we are seeing in less stable parts of the world and we saw a little bit last summer in the US. Community protection often involves some element of standing around in a visible manner, which makes you more vulnerable to snipers which seems to be a preferred method of urban warfare in destabilized areas. So I don't imagine myself catching one in the plate as I do an Australian Peel out of an ambush so much as I imagine someone taking a potshot at me as I man a roadblock or check a perimeter. "I'm not looking for a fight" is often repeated as a reason to not invest in weapons or armor, but if lawlessness increases in an area don't expect a brigand to care much about your preferences before picking one with you.

My easy answer for "when I should buy plates" is if you are considering your second or third defensive rifle you should probably stop and buy armor instead. Occasionally there are deals that make it easier to justify sooner, my local group found a deal on NIJ level III plates for $35 per and needless to say, stocked up.

[Raptor]

^^^---Excellent post and great logic---^^^

I too purchased plates when they were cheap and easy to find. I also have soft armor IIIA. The key issue I have with soft armor is that due to its nature it will wear out if wearing it a lot and there is a shelf life. There is a lot of debate as to whether or not the shelf life is real or a best by date but it comes down to the issue: If you are wearing armor you do do not want it to fail.

The plates I bought are steel heavy and not comfortable. That said they exceed IIIA performance. They also can be left in the back seat of my car during the NOLA summer heat. I would be afraid that my soft vest would be materially affected if I used it for this purpose.

As for II, IIA or III the vast majority of the thugs in my area use 9mm or .40S&W however an alarming number now use 7.62x39 and 5.56. It is that latter group that motivated start carrying plate in my car.

If you do not have armor you should as your budget allows consider getting some. I would note that used vets are an option and there many Youtube videos of "expired" armor being tested. Most of the time it still meets or exceeds the listed rating. 

   

[Lettuce Pray]

I'm not opposed to the concept of armor.  But when I look at adding the weight and heat retention if a vest on top of my rifle/other equipment, the expense of a quality armor setup, I'm putting this towards the bottom of my priorities.

Soft armor is not that bad for mobility or heat retention. I average wearing it 5 days per week and hardly notice it once I get busy. Plates on the other hand, are different.  I have worn level 4 plates in an IOTV or IBA vest in some of the hottest places in the world during the hottest parts of the year for up to 12 hours at a time dismounted. It sucked. And I mean really, really sucked. But it is doable. The biggest factors that make or break if an able-bodied adult is able to pull off wearing heavy armor in the heat for extended periods are conditioning, hydration, and being climitized to the environmental conditions that you encounter. I don't condition like I should or like I used to. That is a goal of mine for this year for functional fitness. Right now I have the snake bite excuse but that is about to run out.

[RonnyRonin]

Worth noting that in very hot places there are some plate ventilation and cooling devices that are worth considering. There is a "USMC mesh cooling vest" which is simply very very thick spacer mesh that allows a tiny amount of air flow (as well as some backface deformation protection), there are often pontoons that can velcro in to a PC to limit the amount of direct contact with you, and even some devices you freeze and insert between you and your plates. Obviously the latter doesn't work for stash-and-forget armor but if you are operating close to home it could be an option.

[Limon Man]

What would be a recommended Level II soft wrap with plate pockets?  What plates are people running?

[Raptor]

What would be a recommended Level II soft wrap with plate pockets?  What plates are people running?

I bought these plates.
https://www.ar500armor.com/level-3-body-armor-tpads.html

[RoneKiln]

My threat environment is mostly urban (Texas cities) with extensive travel down rural highways in West Texas, South Texas, and the border region.  It would be kept in the car unless needed, and I don't foresee myself running to the sound of the guns. 

My conundrum is this: if I'm in a place where I need any armor, then I need to be prepared for rifle fire.  Heat is also a significant factor in my AO, both for storage in the car and while wearing during the boogaloo.  I already have a light chest rig built around handgun support and first aid (HPG Kit Bag).

I'm not opposed to the concept of armor.  But when I look at adding the weight and heat retention if a vest on top of my rifle/other equipment, the expense of a quality armor setup, I'm putting this towards the bottom of my priorities.

I would also put it to the bottom of my priorities given the conditions you reference.

I also agree with everything Ronny posted.

I really appreciate how this site gives us a venue to not just seek simple answers, but to discuss all the details of different situations and values.

[Lettuce Pray]

What would be a recommended Level II soft wrap with plate pockets?  What plates are people running?

I bought these plates.
https://www.ar500armor.com/level-3-body-armor-tpads.html

That is actually a good bit cheaper than I would have thought. What do your plates weigh?

[Raptor]

What would be a recommended Level II soft wrap with plate pockets?  What plates are people running?

I bought these plates.
https://www.ar500armor.com/level-3-body-armor-tpads.html

That is actually a good bit cheaper than I would have thought. What do your plates weigh?

Too f'ing much

The plates and concealable carrier together weigh about 12 lbs.

When I bought them they had 2 plates and concealable carrier on sale for $99 (+S&H). The current price is way down from the 2020 price.