I realized it's been a very long time since I'd posted a 2nd line, and my setup has changed a lot since then. I then realized it's been a very long time since I'd seen much discussion about 2nd line gear in general. It's easy to lump 2nd line gear into the "unrealistic doomsday stuff" category and avoid talking about it, and to an extent it may be, but I think it's worth some idle speculation at least. In some prepper groups nowadays it seems common to dismiss too much talk of guns or gear beyond a 10/22 with cries of "you won't be in afghanistan!" or "you should be avoiding fights, not looking to get in them!" but to my ear these seem nearly as silly as "I don't need to prep, I have a gun!"
I don't want to get to lost in the weeds on the "why," but to touch on it briefly I tend to conceptualize the role of 2nd line gear for a prepper as one of two things:
1) Bug out gear in a world gone VERY sideways; relocating is when you and your family/crew will be most vulnerable and a group on any size will make stealth and retreat more difficult so a fight might be more likely.
2) Support gear for neighborhood watch/deputized pose/rural defensive patrols in a world gone somewhat or mostly sideways. I don't find it hard to imagine a world where able bodied community members become the backbone of legitimate law enforcement in certain areas, and may be repelling equally well armed brigands from their communities.
In my mind what 2nd line gear is NOT for is the overwhelming scenario most people seem to cite for long guns; the "bump in the night" case. At present this is certainly the highest statistical likelihood for most people to need a rifle; and with that in mind I don't really begrudge anyone that thinks putting a lot of time and energy into a well thought out 2nd line setup is a bit silly.
My younger self was primarily focused on the first case; and as such I was focused on getting everything on my chest as I assumed most times I would be carrying a 2nd line I would also be carrying a full sized pack. While my focus has shifted a lot to the second case my bias toward chest rigs has mostly remained, with a few exceptions.
To cut to the chase; here is my current setup:
(https://i.imgur.com/aUGht3b.jpg)
The big picture has stayed the same for a long time; IFAK, utility pouch, 4ish magazines. The layout has changed a decent amount though, and what I've settled on lately has been 2 magazines in a *very* fast open pouch (HSGI tacos pictured; trying ESSTAC Kywis now) and two magazines in a *very* secure, slower pouch as my compromise for balancing security with access.
I'm a narrow fellow so spreading the magazines out side by side is a bit of a non starter for me despite the often cited advantages for proning out; I tell myself that in most terrain near me a rock, tree or log is always near and fully proning out in open country is a rare case. Doubling up on mag depth lets me still wear a backpack, and reasonably keep my arms at my sides.
I've settled on the insert-as-flap of the Blue Force Gear Trauma Kit Now! as my first aid pouch of choice, and I've gone ahead and sewn up several duplicate inserts to use as refills or to supply duplicate rigs. I've debated some alternate locations for an IFAK (dangler below rig; offers good access from either side, cargo pocket of trousers for the always-on factor, or small of back under a plate carrier to double as a lumbar pillow in the car) but this is simple and seems to be most in line with the people in my area and circles, I'd want to convert them to one or the other before I switched and that's a heavy lift.
The utility pouch is fairly straight forward, usually just a SAW pouch or any ol' bucket with a buckle flap that can hold a snack, a cleaning kit, some tape, batteries, and other odds and ends that accumulate. I used to keep my radio in this pouch as well, but I've moved it to its own flashbang pouch next door to keep it from being jostled.
I run a hand mic off my radio with an aux cord from the mic to my ear pro. I keep a Mora knife in a kydex sheath tucked behind the pouch as a field knife and a get-off-me-knife.
The dump pouch hanging off the bottom is a new addition still in the trial phase; I've recognized the wisdom of a dump pouch for a long time but never found a model or location I was happy with. The wide and short orientation cuts down on flop a good bit.
In the interest of focusing on patrolling I have given more thought to the tradition belt kit in the last few years:
(https://i.imgur.com/cJe1Ea5.jpg)
With the idea of only being out and about around your community and in most cases home for dinner (or breakfast) the butt pack is more than enough room for day gear, and gives a lot of upper body mobility and avoids some of the issues of body armor compatibility with chest rigs and backpacks. In the above picture I actually have a 30 degree down quilt and an air mattress; with enough snacks for an overnight trip I went on (different trip, same setup below:)
(https://i.imgur.com/z25ULqq.jpg)
I was trying out a british belt rig above; I prefer the US style large butt pack in general.
In the belt kit it's fairly easy to carry 5 mags and an IFAK, even with my small waist and keeping the front clear for prone use. All the usual comparisons between belts and chest rigs hold; better ventilation and load carriage on the one hand, easier to get in and out of cars and use a backpack on the other.
A simpler and cheaper approximation is fairly easy to make; a few inexpensive SAW and canteen pouches and whatever mag pouches are cheap at the time (I'm fond of the USMC buckle flap quad mag pouch which was in the $10 range not so long ago):
(https://i.imgur.com/GcTrcET.jpg)
Makes for a serviceable backup or loaner rig; I'd peg the price of the above at around $50 if you had to buy it all off the shelf.
To continue with a few more options, I tend to keep my armor carrier pretty slick and wear it under a chest rig when needed, but I have setup the cummerbund to function as a very stripped down 2nd line when needed. 3 mags go on my off side, and a radio goes on my strong side; as pictured a windshirt is all that's needed to go unnoticed (a hood is fairly important to hide the hump at the top of the back) I've tested in numerous times around my wife, gun friends, and in town. Since I haven't found a good way to conceal an IFAK on this and keep it concealable I generally use an ankle kit with it.
(https://i.imgur.com/rJTdV1P.jpg)
Another option I've been playing with is a more stripped down lumbar pack; Its small and light enough it doesn't need suspenders which makes it much easier to pop on and off in conjunction with armor, chest rigs, or both. I can also loosen it and spin it around for access without taking it off, since its mostly meant as a supplement rather than a stand alone piece I only keep a few mags, and IFAK, and a dump pouch on it. The pack itself holds snacks, water, a poncho, some basic SERE items and sometimes a light jacket. Its short enough to fit under the rear plate of my armor and makes a great lower back pillow in a car to make armor more comfortable for short trips. This is about as close as I get to a "bump in the night" rig as it would be easy to throw on quickly and go check the property without having to fully gear up.
(https://i.imgur.com/vnUnToh.jpg)
Since the butt pack is sewn directly to the belt and the contact point between the two is very wide this bounces far less than most any other butt pack I've used, and even less so when pinned under a rear plate.
(https://i.imgur.com/oCeoOfF.jpg)
This is the larger belt kit in use; as you can see it rides pretty low so a shorter pack can be worn above it if needed; but most of the time I find it to be plenty on its own.
Several other members posted pics and descriptions of their setups on the old forum, I hope some of them will transfer their responses as well!
Quote from: RonnyRonin on June 27, 2021, 10:04:13 AM
To continue with a few more options, I tend to keep my armor carrier pretty slick and wear it under a chest rig when needed, but I have setup the cummerbund to function as a very stripped down 2nd line when needed. 3 mags go on my off side, and a radio goes on my strong side; as pictured a windshirt is all that's needed to go unnoticed (a hood is fairly important to hide the hump at the top of the back) I've tested in numerous times around my wife, gun friends, and in town. Since I haven't found a good way to conceal an IFAK on this and keep it concealable I generally use an ankle kit with it.
(https://i.imgur.com/rJTdV1P.jpg)
Another option I've been playing with is a more stripped down lumbar pack; Its small and light enough it doesn't need suspenders which makes it much easier to pop on and off in conjunction with armor, chest rigs, or both. I can also loosen it and spin it around for access without taking it off, since its mostly meant as a supplement rather than a stand alone piece I only keep a few mags, and IFAK, and a dump pouch on it. The pack itself holds snacks, water, a poncho, some basic SERE items and sometimes a light jacket. Its short enough to fit under the rear plate of my armor and makes a great lower back pillow in a car to make armor more comfortable for short trips. This is about as close as I get to a "bump in the night" rig as it would be easy to throw on quickly and go check the property without having to fully gear up.
(https://i.imgur.com/vnUnToh.jpg)
Since the butt pack is sewn directly to the belt and the contact point between the two is very wide this bounces far less than most any other butt pack I've used, and even less so when pinned under a rear plate.
(https://i.imgur.com/oCeoOfF.jpg)
This is the larger belt kit in use; as you can see it rides pretty low so a shorter pack can be worn above it if needed; but most of the time I find it to be plenty on its own.
In the picture of you wearing your set up and firing your weapon. I see snow on the walls of the range , but you are wearing a light shirt (jacket ? ). Which made me wonder how you addressee very cold weather with this set? Would you wear it over a bulkier coat or under it? And how does this affect it's functionality and comfort ?
Quote from: flybynight on June 27, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
In the picture of you wearing your set up and firing your weapon. I see snow on the walls of the range , but you are wearing a light shirt (jacket ? ). Which made me wonder how you addressee very cold weather with this set? Would you wear it over a bulkier coat or under it? And how does this affect it's functionality and comfort ?
Great question! Because it's colorado its probably in the 70's F in that picture, snow lingers for a long time in consistent shade.
A bit of a complex topic for a single post, but I'll take a stab at it. My basic layering principle is that you should dress so that fully zipped up you are warm while moving slowly, or stopped for short periods, and fully unzipped/sleeves pushed up/hoods down you aren't too hot while moving at your fastest. For me that means even down into the teens I rarely wear more than a baselayer and a windshirt ever. In a patrolling context you are moving slowly and pausing often so I'd wear a heavier baselayer than I would backpacking, but the same principle applies. Under almost no circumstance should you have a puffy jacket or a thick fleece between you and your kit in the lower 48 in my opinion.
(https://i.imgur.com/3D2fefN.jpg?1)
Here is an example of me moving fast in cold weather; my baselayer is a Level 2 grid fleece and my windshirt is a tyvek overwhite jacket. with two sets of sleeves, two hoods, a hat and gloves, I have a roughly 18 different "settings" I can adjust through without ever having to add or remove layers which would require removing my gear.
For longer security halts you want a "pause puffy" in your kit that can go over all your gear without taking anything off. This either means a jacket a size or two to big, an insulated poncho (like a wiggy's or an HPG serape), or something like a Crye Halfjacket. I have a home made halfjacket made from an ECWCS liner jacket (looks like a poncho liner) that I simply chopped the bottom half off of, works well with plate carriers and chest rigs as well. I actually rarely use it; even backpacking in the teens I often stay warm enough over a lunch break with just my baselayer and windshirt if I picked it right and did my job regulating while moving so I didn't get too sweaty. In a tactical context I might have to lay down on the cold ground for extended periods so I pack a bit more insulation than I would recreationally.
Excellent post. Alot of great information here. And i know its fully thought out and tested. As ronny never does anything halfassed. Which i admire.
My set up needs some tactical work. Presently i use an hpg recon chest bag. Pic attached. Then a usgi fannypack. And a thick traditional belt on my pants for holster and sheath.
Then i can add any backpack i want. As the chest bag does not impede a backpack. And the fanny pack rides under and below the belt holding my sidearm and knife. I can add an edc type pack, to a 24hr ghb pack or a bob, to 65l or 80l. Depending on the situation.
I dont have the smaller packs filled yet. But im working on a bob and a ghb. (Which in the case of the bob its really just picking and choosing items from my inch bag. Which im thinking about doing in modules.) As well as my new lapg book bag for edc. They are pretty great for twenty bucks.
My sidearm rotates between holster and chest bag. Depending on what i am doing. The holster is open carry owb or concealed if i wear a jacket. The chest bag allows full concealment. The chest bag also holds items i dont want to root around in my fannypack or backpack for. Gloves. Glasses. Gps. Flashlight. Etc.
The fannypack acts like a last ditch bag. Its basically a survival kit the size of a loaf of bread. If i lose or drop my main backpack. I have everything on me to survive. Alot of items are doubled from what i have in my main pack. Just smaller. Ifak. Poncho. Fire kit. Fishing kit. Water filter. Etc.
Again, my largest concern was finding something fairly minimalist that would ride friendly with a full pack. Thus the chest bag. And the fannypack.
I have considered a chest rig. For home urban settings. And getting out of LA. Most likely a cheap minimalist one. As its something i would ditch once out of town.
Having said all this. Im still considering a padded battle(?) belt. That could carry my sidearm, knife, and most importantly mags. In my backpack, chest pack, fannypack set up i dont have a place for mags. My pistol sheath does hold one other mag. But i have no viable set up for rifle mags.
I guess i could employ a chest rig under my back pack. And stow the chest bag inside it. While running the chest rig. But i would want something very minimalist that would ride friendly under my mainpack. I researched this all awhile ago. I wanted something cheap. And found this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Condor-MCR5-Tactical-Kangaroo-Magazine-Pouch-Military-Recon-Harness-Chest-Rig-/123744134918?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
But i think i found a better option with lighter straps etc. But cant find the link.
Any suggestions?
PS - I guess i have to go back to imgur to get pics within my post huh?
What are y'alls recommendations for a good plate carrier that fits 11x14 size plates ?
I've currently got a Condor plate carrier, but I want something a bit more well received and of better quality. The Condor plate carrier is decent, but I'm concerned about the longevity of it in actual use.
I've also got an AR500 Freeman plate carrier that I picked up for 50 bucks with some 9"x9" curved plates, but the thing makes me look like I'm wearing a tactical lobster bib when I put it on.
So what are some brands y'all trust and will fit 11x14 size plates ?
ETA: Originally I thought my Freeman carrier had 10"x12" plates, but upon closer inspection, they're actually 9"x9" plates. So way smaller than I'd initially thought.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 03, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
What are y'alls recommendations for a good plate carrier that fits 11x14 size plates ?
I've currently got a Condor plate carrier, but I want something a bit more well received and of better quality. The Condor plate carrier is decent, but I'm concerned about the longevity of it in actual use.
I've also got an AR500 Freeman plate carrier that I picked up for 50 bucks with some 10x12 curved plates, but the thing makes me look like I'm wearing a tactical lobster bib when I put it on.
So what are some brands y'all trust and will fit 11x14 size plates ?
I have a Tactical Tailor Rogue with 11x14s. I like the made in the USA.
I also look for adaptive stuff so I can mission adjust a loadout. So the MFR would need to have a plain carrier and add-on stuff. Carriers with sewn on pouches etc don't work for me.
The thing about plate carriers is they may have a 'size' to choose from, but the size is for the plates not the person, so look for a L or Large to fit your 11x14. M is for 10x12 and S is for 9xX. Or they may say adjustable to fit if it can do more than one size plate. Some are made to fit the largest size and you have to get an insert for the smaller sizes so the don't move around in the pocket. That's not a plus in my book.
Nylon is in short supply due to the supply chain crisis these days and so prices are going up on it and b/o's and they may have extended lead times effecting US made carriers. I haven't looked lately though, not in the market right now.
Hailey Strategic
T-Rex
Crye Precision
These are all expensive relative to Condor. $200+ and may require proprietary add-ons so that's more $$. But I like their quality reviews, selections and adaptability. There's lots of review on TY.
You can find these brands used on trader websites but they usually come with plates. Prices used aren't great because they know you could wait 3-6 months for a new one.
Setting up a Tactical Tailor MAV & x-harness from scratch... currently have two TT double mag pouches (came with the setup) and a multitool pouch on it just as placeholders... where would you guys prioritize dollars in building it out?
Want to switch to at least a couple of HSGI tacos, although I might see if UW Gear is willing to make single-mag pouches.
Don't currently have an IFAK or dump pouch. Fun money's tight so I need to piecemeal it.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 04, 2021, 01:15:17 PM
Setting up a Tactical Tailor MAV & x-harness from scratch... currently have two TT double mag pouches (came with the setup) and a multitool pouch on it just as placeholders... where would you guys prioritize dollars in building it out?
Want to switch to at least a couple of HSGI tacos, although I might see if UW Gear is willing to make single-mag pouches.
Don't currently have an IFAK or dump pouch. Fun money's tight so I need to piecemeal it.
My money would go to a quality IFAK and then to training with the medical and with the rifle. If I'm reading you right, you have 4x mags and a multi-tool. That should be enough for any realistic fights unless you are assault infantry kicking down doors and taking names over a whole city. After you get training, I would evaluate based on your training experiences and your expected threats. But I think you have a really good starter package.
Quote from: woodsghost on August 04, 2021, 09:35:55 PM
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 04, 2021, 01:15:17 PM
Setting up a Tactical Tailor MAV & x-harness from scratch... currently have two TT double mag pouches (came with the setup) and a multitool pouch on it just as placeholders... where would you guys prioritize dollars in building it out?
Want to switch to at least a couple of HSGI tacos, although I might see if UW Gear is willing to make single-mag pouches.
Don't currently have an IFAK or dump pouch. Fun money's tight so I need to piecemeal it.
My money would go to a quality IFAK and then to training with the medical and with the rifle. If I'm reading you right, you have 4x mags and a multi-tool. That should be enough for any realistic fights unless you are assault infantry kicking down doors and taking names over a whole city. After you get training, I would evaluate based on your training experiences and your expected threats. But I think you have a really good starter package.
I had blown past the idea of taking a class with the existing mag pouches but you're totally right, I should.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 04, 2021, 01:15:17 PM
Setting up a Tactical Tailor MAV & x-harness from scratch... currently have two TT double mag pouches (came with the setup) and a multitool pouch on it just as placeholders... where would you guys prioritize dollars in building it out?
Want to switch to at least a couple of HSGI tacos, although I might see if UW Gear is willing to make single-mag pouches.
Don't currently have an IFAK or dump pouch. Fun money's tight so I need to piecemeal it.
piecemeal is wise. I'd also say IFAK; and a general purpose catch-all pouch. For both the USMC IFAK pouches are very cheap and do the job; don't pay more than $10 shipped for one. An IFAK insert will be a big step up but for now a gallon ziplock back will be better than nothing.
I'm comfortable piecing together IFAKs on the cheap from expired ebay supplies and rummage bins at local army surplus stores; others aren't. For gauze expired kerlix rolls are cheap but bulky, H&H compressed gauze is more money but much smaller. Older CAT TQs can be cheap ($20>), but don't go to old. Chest seals you should probably buy new ($12/pair).
If you have any friends at all I'd recommend comms next, but if you don't have anyone to talk to it may be a bit moot for the moment.
I used taco pouches for quite awhile, and they still are one of the better multi-mag options but for AR only I've started switching to ESSTAC Kywis, PM me and I can dig through my pouch pile and probably part with a double or single for cheap if you really want to try one. The TT pouches you have are quite good, and I'd keep at least one of them, but a quick access mag pouch is very nice as well. Another cheap option that isn't quite as nice is the "USMC speed reload pouch" ($10> shipped from ebay) but cut off the flap and it will do the job.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 04, 2021, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 04, 2021, 01:15:17 PM
Setting up a Tactical Tailor MAV & x-harness from scratch... currently have two TT double mag pouches (came with the setup) and a multitool pouch on it just as placeholders... where would you guys prioritize dollars in building it out?
Want to switch to at least a couple of HSGI tacos, although I might see if UW Gear is willing to make single-mag pouches.
Don't currently have an IFAK or dump pouch. Fun money's tight so I need to piecemeal it.
piecemeal is wise. I'd also say IFAK; and a general purpose catch-all pouch. For both the USMC IFAK pouches are very cheap and do the job; don't pay more than $10 shipped for one. An IFAK insert will be a big step up but for now a gallon ziplock back will be better than nothing.
I'm comfortable piecing together IFAKs on the cheap from expired ebay supplies and rummage bins at local army surplus stores; others aren't. For gauze expired kerlix rolls are cheap but bulky, H&H compressed gauze is more money but much smaller. Older CAT TQs can be cheap ($20>), but don't go to old. Chest seals you should probably buy new ($12/pair).
If you have any friends at all I'd recommend comms next, but if you don't have anyone to talk to it may be a bit moot for the moment.
I used taco pouches for quite awhile, and they still are one of the better multi-mag options but for AR only I've started switching to ESSTAC Kywis, PM me and I can dig through my pouch pile and probably part with a double or single for cheap if you really want to try one. The TT pouches you have are quite good, and I'd keep at least one of them, but a quick access mag pouch is very nice as well. Another cheap option that isn't quite as nice is the "USMC speed reload pouch" ($10> shipped from ebay) but cut off the flap and it will do the job.
Sorry for the hijack. But you seem pretty up on current surplus web gear. Are there any good items in multicam around these days?
And what are the dimensions of that usmc ifake pouch?
Quote from: woodsghost on August 04, 2021, 09:35:55 PM
If I'm reading you right, you have 4x mags and a multi-tool.
I should clarify a little - I have two double mag pouches as close to the centerline as possible (split-front rig) and a four-layer 111mm SAK in the multitool pouch until I can get around to picking up another SOG.
My main beef with doubles is that they constantly seem to get in the way during dryfire. You guys are right though, I should try them live before I change out.
I'm also sort of paranoid about stuff getting in the way seated or prone, but that comes from shooting bolt guns at Appleseeds for points and might not be legit.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 04, 2021, 10:18:46 PM
Older CAT TQs can be cheap ($20>), but don't go to old. Chest seals you should probably buy new ($12/pair).
IFAK it is, thanks for all the advice!
In terms of comms - I've got my Technician's license and an FT-60, but I've got to screw around with it before it's usable in my area (I-25 corridor). Still set up for North Alabama repeaters.
Edit: as far as people to talk to on something other than the 2M... nope.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 04, 2021, 11:16:43 PM
Quote from: woodsghost on August 04, 2021, 09:35:55 PM
If I'm reading you right, you have 4x mags and a multi-tool.
I should clarify a little - I have two double mag pouches as close to the centerline as possible (split-front rig) and a four-layer 111mm SAK in the multitool pouch until I can get around to picking up another SOG.
My main beef with doubles is that they constantly seem to get in the way during dryfire. You guys are right though, I should try them live before I change out.
I'm also sort of paranoid about stuff getting in the way seated or prone, but that comes from shooting bolt guns at Appleseeds for points and might not be legit.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 04, 2021, 10:18:46 PM
Older CAT TQs can be cheap ($20>), but don't go to old. Chest seals you should probably buy new ($12/pair).
IFAK it is, thanks for all the advice!
In terms of comms - I've got my Technician's license and an FT-60, but I've got to screw around with it before it's usable in my area (I-25 corridor). Still set up for North Alabama repeaters.
Edit: as far as people to talk to on something other than the 2M... nope.
2M is a good starting point and the FT-60 should be pretty durable. If you want to expand your comms for cheap I'd look at an FRS that is waterproof. I don't have any recommendation at the moment. But that should let you integrate into most any pick-up team for minimal investment.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 04, 2021, 11:16:43 PM
Quote from: woodsghost on August 04, 2021, 09:35:55 PM
If I'm reading you right, you have 4x mags and a multi-tool.
I should clarify a little - I have two double mag pouches as close to the centerline as possible (split-front rig) and a four-layer 111mm SAK in the multitool pouch until I can get around to picking up another SOG.
My main beef with doubles is that they constantly seem to get in the way during dryfire. You guys are right though, I should try them live before I change out.
I'm also sort of paranoid about stuff getting in the way seated or prone, but that comes from shooting bolt guns at Appleseeds for points and might not be legit.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 04, 2021, 10:18:46 PM
Older CAT TQs can be cheap ($20>), but don't go to old. Chest seals you should probably buy new ($12/pair).
IFAK it is, thanks for all the advice!
In terms of comms - I've got my Technician's license and an FT-60, but I've got to screw around with it before it's usable in my area (I-25 corridor). Still set up for North Alabama repeaters.
Edit: as far as people to talk to on something other than the 2M... nope.
I'm in the same boat money wise. So what I did was
1. get something cheap that does the job.
2. train with that and figure out what you like about it and what you don't.
3. research to find out how to fix what's not working or could work better
4. upgrade.
5. train with the upgrade and figure out what you like about it and what you don't.
6. repeat 3-6
7. stay abreast of the latest and greatest in new equipment releases.
You can stay in budget and eventually have exactly what you want. You still keep the old stuff as backup or for another person/people to use.
IIRC the TT MAV breaks at the front and so goes on like a vest. I have a USGI surplus version and that was the first LBR I ever bought, $20 and included pouches to hold 9 mags. I eventually added a knife, drop pouch, blackhawk molle pistol holster attachment w/ holster and a stripper loader key. Then just recently added a QD to the blackhawk attachment so I can move the holster from that rig to a belt rig and back when needed. That whole rig was based on NOT using a battle belt with it. Then I started on the next one. Also built belt systems and IFAKs and MedKits, and Hydration, COMs, Backpack, etc using the same upgrade theory system.
Right now I have a IIRC $30 belt with about $240 worth of mags and holster. That is one of the first belts I bought, and I had a 'cheap' holster setup on it originally. 511 IIRC. Now it's been upgraded to the best 7TS ALS QLS holster Safariland made at the time, and the best mags IMO. And I just started looking at better belt solutions for this. Looks like its going to be over $100 to upgrade that belt. When I do that, I'll revert the old belt to the old holster system and have another backup. I have another similar belt that I think was $20 that I have that old holster on but upgrade and hand-me-downs and that will get revised.
(https://i.imgur.com/kWppRa9.jpg?1)
Treat IFAKs as a separate thing on their own and not as part of the LBR, or chest rig. They should be able to attach to any load out and be moved from kit to kit, your MAV, your belt, you backpack your car. That way you don't have to have a separate one for each location to start. You can build them up using the steps for your LBR, figure out pouch sizes and contents, and eventually have multiples and different styles/sizes for different trips/scenarios.
TL:DR start cheap and add upgrades as budget allows. learn what is good quality and what works for you. Train.
Just looking at the MAV. You have something like this, but which opens in the front?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/speartacticalreviews.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/tactical-tailor-mav-and-x-harness-review/amp/
It's up to you, but I would consider putting the double mag pouches either over my hips (3 o'clock and 9 o'clock) or slightly forward of my hips (2 o'clock and 10 o'clock). I would put the multi-tool right near the buckles. I would want to be able to get low to the ground. Some guys with those or similar rigs with a massive amount of gear attached will leave them unbuckled so they can get lower to the ground. There is no rule book saying you have to have the rig buckled when you use it.
Another idea is to put both mag pouches on one side and an IFAK and something else useful (canteen?) On the other side to balance weight a little. No rule book says you need to have both mag pouches symmetrically attached to your rig. You get to make your own decisions, and as long as they work, no reason to change anything. The key question is always "is this working?" If it is, then keep it. If it stops working then change it.
It may or may not help to know more about your context (What state are you in? What rifle are you running? What experience do you have? Government or non-government? Etc). But only share what you are comfortable with, and I think those details won't really change our responses so far. IFAK and training. You have a good starter setup. Some pouches can be added for cheap off eBay.
Remember, *mission* drives gear choices. Define your mission, practice it, and fill gear needs *IF* there are any holes or failures. If there are no holes or failures, then put your money towards ammo or other needed items.
Quote from: woodsghost on August 05, 2021, 12:24:47 PM
It may or may not help to know more about your context (What state are you in? What rifle are you running? What experience do you have? Government or non-government? Etc). But only share what you are comfortable with, and I think those details won't really change our responses so far. IFAK and training. You have a good starter setup. Some pouches can be added for cheap off eBay.
, then put your money towards ammo or other needed items.
Yes, I have the split-front version of the MAV.
I'm between Denver and Colorado Springs using an AR (still needs an Aimpoint). In terms of experience I'm pretty much a beginner in the carbine world, but I was an Appleseed IIT3 (had kids / had to stop), and I worked for Remington for about seven years until it got split up and I had to bail out (for whatever that's worth). I actually used to help R&D test firearms whenever they needed help, which was cool, but that typically involved magdumping into a backstop because we were looking for stoppages and part failures. I did enough self-teaching to make 100-yard hits on IPSC silhouettes with my old J-frame, but honestly that's not very hard. In Appleseed terms I typically shoot in the mid-230s on the AQT from a cold start and closer to 240 warmed up with my CZ. But again, that's not particularly difficult and is NOT the same kind of shooting.
Mostly a handgun (DA/SA) and bolt-action rifle shooter. I'm not a government employee.
The intent is to set up a reasonably low-profile rig to take classes with and layer on top of my existing handgun stuff, which revolves around a full-sized Beretta on a pistol belt. And then to flex into more serious defensive use if absolutely necessary.
Hope that's helpful.
Edit: If I can keep weight down that's probably ideal. I'm getting old and moving from 600 feet of elevation to 6,500 a couple months ago is still killing me.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 04, 2021, 10:18:46 PM
I'm comfortable piecing together IFAKs on the cheap from expired ebay supplies and rummage bins at local army surplus stores; others aren't. For gauze expired kerlix rolls are cheap but bulky, H&H compressed gauze is more money but much smaller. Older CAT TQs can be cheap ($20>), but don't go to old. Chest seals you should probably buy new ($12/pair).
Wait... Surplus stores carry "expired" bandages?! Sounds like I need to rediscover the surplus stores near Lewis McChord next time I'm down there! I just spent several hundred bucks building 2 IFAK kits and restocking lost trauma supplies (United Airlines lost my whole med kit a few years ago).
If I can find "expired" stuff cheap, I'll stock my supplies far deeper.
Does anyone know of a lightweight chest rig like this thats cheaper?
https://www.moonlightinds.com/collections/chest-rigs/products/ak47-getaway-driver-chest-rig-7-62x39?variant=38275736928434
SKD Tactical makes something called the PIG UCR chest rig.
I'm not sure if they still make it, though. I'm finding the all MOLLE version on their site for 75 bucks, but I'm not seeing the UCR like I've got.
When I bought my UCR, it was about 125 bucks or so. Right now I've got it set up for my AR with 8 Pmags and 4 G17 mags.
Quote from: Moab on August 07, 2021, 10:42:35 AM
Does anyone know of a lightweight chest rig like this thats cheaper?
https://www.moonlightinds.com/collections/chest-rigs/products/ak47-getaway-driver-chest-rig-7-62x39?variant=38275736928434
Moonlight Industries Getaway Driver Chest Rig 7.62X39
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0268/0923/7682/products/PXL_20210219_003518777_1_740x.jpg?v=1613698136)
Are those pouches sewn on or velcroe'd on? Do you need an internal storage area like this one has?
Other than it comes with the pouches, and it has an internal storage compartment I don't see the difference between that one and my Tactical Tailor. which i paid 59.99 sans the pouches and the internal storage. [It might be $89.99 now] And look at the shoulder straps, my TT has padding on the straps. But it didn't come with any pouches. Originally I put condor pouches which were 2 triple rifle mag pouches and 2 double pistol mag pouches. IIRC that's about $60-70 on top of the chest rig or $120-130 total. But then I upgraded and put 2 Esstac double-dual pouches and 2 single 556's on it. See photo's below. Those Pouches are way better than those elastic ones IMO, but those were $188 total, plus the 60 rig and that's $248 total now.
In this picture I've also added the Tactical Tailor Rogue Skeletonized cummerbund $46, it comes with the single strap just like the Moonlight one. Total rig expenditure. $294 not including the condors which are now repurposed.
(https://i.imgur.com/pbfsbC2.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/kWppRa9.jpg?1)
What's cool about the modularity of this setup is that I can take off the skeletonized cummerbund, its just velcro'd, the two outside single Esstac rifle mag pouches will go with it reducing the number of rifle mags to 4. And then either put on the single strap that the chest rig came with to reduce the load by two mags, OR I can put the elastic cummerbund that came with my Rogue plate carrier on the chest rig if I want to add 4 more rifle mags or other equipment that will fit in the 4 internal slots in the elastic.
MODULARITY!!! :smiley_happy_thumbup:
(https://i.imgur.com/nv6FKPG.jpg?1)
Tactical Taylor Rogue Plate Carrier
For additional modularity I can either wear the chest rig with the shoulder straps over the plate carrier or peal off the placard from the chest rig, and the skeletonized cummerbund, and mount them directly to the plate carrier, velcro. And either leave the PC's elastic cummerbund on, which has extra storage, or remove it.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on June 27, 2021, 10:04:13 AM
To continue with a few more options, I tend to keep my armor carrier pretty slick and wear it under a chest rig when needed, but I have setup the cummerbund to function as a very stripped down 2nd line when needed. 3 mags go on my off side, and a radio goes on my strong side; as pictured a windshirt is all that's needed to go unnoticed (a hood is fairly important to hide the hump at the top of the back) I've tested in numerous times around my wife, gun friends, and in town. Since I haven't found a good way to conceal an IFAK on this and keep it concealable I generally use an ankle kit with it.
(https://i.imgur.com/rJTdV1P.jpg)
Another option I've been playing with is a more stripped down lumbar pack; Its small and light enough it doesn't need suspenders which makes it much easier to pop on and off in conjunction with armor, chest rigs, or both. I can also loosen it and spin it around for access without taking it off, since its mostly meant as a supplement rather than a stand alone piece I only keep a few mags, and IFAK, and a dump pouch on it. The pack itself holds snacks, water, a poncho, some basic SERE items and sometimes a light jacket. Its short enough to fit under the rear plate of my armor and makes a great lower back pillow in a car to make armor more comfortable for short trips. This is about as close as I get to a "bump in the night" rig as it would be easy to throw on quickly and go check the property without having to fully gear up.
(https://i.imgur.com/vnUnToh.jpg)
Since the butt pack is sewn directly to the belt and the contact point between the two is very wide this bounces far less than most any other butt pack I've used, and even less so when pinned under a rear plate.
(https://i.imgur.com/oCeoOfF.jpg)
This is the larger belt kit in use; as you can see it rides pretty low so a shorter pack can be worn above it if needed; but most of the time I find it to be plenty on its own.
What low profile armor carrier is this?
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 09, 2021, 11:06:43 AM
Quote from: Moab on August 07, 2021, 10:42:35 AM
Does anyone know of a lightweight chest rig like this thats cheaper?
https://www.moonlightinds.com/collections/chest-rigs/products/ak47-getaway-driver-chest-rig-7-62x39?variant=38275736928434
Moonlight Industries Getaway Driver Chest Rig 7.62X39
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0268/0923/7682/products/PXL_20210219_003518777_1_740x.jpg?v=1613698136)
Are those pouches sewn on or velcroe'd on? Do you need an internal storage area like this one has?
Other than it comes with the pouches, and it has an internal storage compartment I don't see the difference between that one and my Tactical Tailor. which i paid 59.99 sans the pouches and the internal storage. [It might be $89.99 now] And look at the shoulder straps, my TT has padding on the straps. But it didn't come with any pouches. Originally I put condor pouches which were 2 triple rifle mag pouches and 2 double pistol mag pouches. IIRC that's about $60-70 on top of the chest rig or $120-130 total. But then I upgraded and put 2 Esstac double-dual pouches and 2 single 556's on it. See photo's below. Those Pouches are way better than those elastic ones IMO, but those were $188 total, plus the 60 rig and that's $248 total now.
In this picture I've also added the Tactical Tailor Rogue Skeletonized cummerbund $46, it comes with the single strap just like the Moonlight one. Total rig expenditure. $294 not including the condors which are now repurposed.
(https://i.imgur.com/pbfsbC2.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/kWppRa9.jpg?1)
What's cool about the modularity of this setup is that I can take off the skeletonized cummerbund, its just velcro'd, the two outside single Esstac rifle mag pouches will go with it reducing the number of rifle mags to 4. And then either put on the single strap that the chest rig came with to reduce the load by two mags, OR I can put the elastic cummerbund that came with my Rogue plate carrier on the chest rig if I want to add 4 more rifle mags or other equipment that will fit in the 4 internal slots in the elastic.
MODULARITY!!! :smiley_happy_thumbup:
(https://i.imgur.com/nv6FKPG.jpg?1)
Tactical Taylor Rogue Plate Carrier
For additional modularity I can either wear the chest rig with the shoulder straps over the plate carrier or peal off the placard from the chest rig, and the skeletonized cummerbund, and mount them directly to the plate carrier, velcro. And either leave the PC's elastic cummerbund on, which has extra storage, or remove it.
That's not bad for $75. And i like your idea of starting with the Condor pouches
https://www.tacticaltailor.com/minimav-1.aspx
I dont know if that rig i posted has sewn on pouches or not. I just like that its so slim and lightweight. But the TT one looks good. Thanks for that post. That was alot. I really appreciate it.
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 02:13:28 PM
That's not bad for $75. And i like your idea of starting with the Condor pouches
https://www.tacticaltailor.com/minimav-1.aspx
I dont know if that rig i posted has sewn on pouches or not. I just like that its so slim and lightweight. But the TT one looks good. Thanks for that post. That was alot. I really appreciate it.
That's the Mini Mav you've linked to. Mine's the Rogue, so I can't say how adaptive the MiniMav is. Shoulder straps are different also.
https://www.tacticaltailor.com/rogueadapatablechestrig.aspx
I got mine for less than the MSRP. You may find it for less on other distributors sites. Here it is on Amazon for less. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06ZYWSKMM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 09, 2021, 04:01:12 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 02:13:28 PM
That's not bad for $75. And i like your idea of starting with the Condor pouches
https://www.tacticaltailor.com/minimav-1.aspx
I dont know if that rig i posted has sewn on pouches or not. I just like that its so slim and lightweight. But the TT one looks good. Thanks for that post. That was alot. I really appreciate it.
That's the Mini Mav you've linked to. Mine's the Rogue, so I can't say how adaptive the MiniMav is. Shoulder straps are different also.
https://www.tacticaltailor.com/rogueadapatablechestrig.aspx
I got mine for less than the MSRP. You may find it for less on other distributors sites. Here it is on Amazon for less. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06ZYWSKMM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I actually prefer that lighter weight one. I wish i could get that moonlight one. But with just a molle panel. As its super light duty. And it would be "modular". I found one with a laser cut molle panel. I think thats what its called. Just one sheet of multicam fabric with molle cut outs. But more expensive iirc. I cant find the link.
Something like this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tactical-MultiCam-Chest-Rig-Modular-Load-Bearing-Equipment-Adjustable-Strap-/304044750139?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Quote from: Moab on August 04, 2021, 10:47:14 PM
Sorry for the hijack. But you seem pretty up on current surplus web gear. Are there any good items in multicam around these days?
And what are the dimensions of that usmc ifake pouch?
Pretty much everything being made is either multicam or scorpion now, so you are spoiled for choice. Of course some of the prices are still high on certain items until the market gets more flooded. The IFAK is more or less the size of a 200rd SAW pouch, but 3 PALS channels wide rather than 4.
Quote from: Limon Man on August 09, 2021, 12:12:32 PM
What low profile armor carrier is this?
Home made. The First Spear Sleeper was my main inspiration but I lined the inside with 10mm spacer mesh for extra cushion and ventilation.
Quote from: RoneKiln on August 05, 2021, 09:50:33 PM
Wait... Surplus stores carry "expired" bandages?! Sounds like I need to rediscover the surplus stores near Lewis McChord next time I'm down there! I just spent several hundred bucks building 2 IFAK kits and restocking lost trauma supplies (United Airlines lost my whole med kit a few years ago).
If I can find "expired" stuff cheap, I'll stock my supplies far deeper.
We've paid as little as $5 for CATs still in the package, and occasionally find chest seals, decomp needles and quickclot gauze. Highly recommend looking around.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 09, 2021, 07:48:59 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 04, 2021, 10:47:14 PM
Sorry for the hijack. But you seem pretty up on current surplus web gear. Are there any good items in multicam around these days?
And what are the dimensions of that usmc ifake pouch?
Pretty much everything being made is either multicam or scorpion now, so you are spoiled for choice. Of course some of the prices are still high on certain items until the market gets more flooded. The IFAK is more or less the size of a 200rd SAW pouch, but 3 PALS channels wide rather than 4.
Quote from: Limon Man on August 09, 2021, 12:12:32 PM
What low profile armor carrier is this?
Home made. The First Spear Sleeper was my main inspiration but I lined the inside with 10mm spacer mesh for extra cushion and ventilation.
Quote from: RoneKiln on August 05, 2021, 09:50:33 PM
Wait... Surplus stores carry "expired" bandages?! Sounds like I need to rediscover the surplus stores near Lewis McChord next time I'm down there! I just spent several hundred bucks building 2 IFAK kits and restocking lost trauma supplies (United Airlines lost my whole med kit a few years ago).
If I can find "expired" stuff cheap, I'll stock my supplies far deeper.
We've paid as little as $5 for CATs still in the package, and occasionally find chest seals, decomp needles and quickclot gauze. Highly recommend looking around.
I looked on ebay for multicam. And didnt find much under 15 bucks. Ill search scorpion.
Ive gotta find better surplus stores. Im going to Seattle on the 17th. Maybe ill drive down to fort lewis. And see if i can find any good surplus stores.
Heres the one i was talking about. It holds 3 to 6 mags. 5 being standard. The outside is laser cut molle holes. Its very lightweight. And modular of course. And it comes in multicam. :)
https://beezcombatsystems.com/AR-LE-Chest-Rig-GRID-BCS-CR-AR-LEG-1000.htm
They also sell an AK47 version, an AK 74 version and several others.
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 05:11:07 PM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 09, 2021, 04:01:12 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 02:13:28 PM
That's not bad for $75. And i like your idea of starting with the Condor pouches
https://www.tacticaltailor.com/minimav-1.aspx
I dont know if that rig i posted has sewn on pouches or not. I just like that its so slim and lightweight. But the TT one looks good. Thanks for that post. That was alot. I really appreciate it.
That's the Mini Mav you've linked to. Mine's the Rogue, so I can't say how adaptive the MiniMav is. Shoulder straps are different also.
https://www.tacticaltailor.com/rogueadapatablechestrig.aspx
I got mine for less than the MSRP. You may find it for less on other distributors sites. Here it is on Amazon for less. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06ZYWSKMM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I actually prefer that lighter weight one. I wish i could get that moonlight one. But with just a molle panel. As its super light duty. And it would be "modular". I found one with a laser cut molle panel. I think thats what its called. Just one sheet of multicam fabric with molle cut outs. But more expensive iirc. I cant find the link.
Something like this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tactical-MultiCam-Chest-Rig-Modular-Load-Bearing-Equipment-Adjustable-Strap-/304044750139?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Yeah, Laser cut webbing is lighter than standard molle weave. The back of that one IIRC is called an 'H' back vs the cross back.
The TT Rogue is only 0.80 lbs, the mini mav doesn't have a weight listed. I didn't see one on the EBAY one either.
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 08:16:05 PM
Ive gotta find better surplus stores. Im going to Seattle on the 17th. Maybe ill drive down to fort lewis. And see if i can find any good surplus stores.
Half a lifetime ago there was a cluster of great ones just outside the north entrance of Camp Murray. I know there are still at least 2 there, but I have no idea how good they are anymore. There used to be several really tiny ones tied into laundry and tailoring services packed full of stuff the troops sold to them for near nothing.
If your trip brings you north closer to the border, I'll buy ya a beer or three.
Quote from: RoneKiln on August 10, 2021, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 08:16:05 PM
Ive gotta find better surplus stores. Im going to Seattle on the 17th. Maybe ill drive down to fort lewis. And see if i can find any good surplus stores.
Half a lifetime ago there was a cluster of great ones just outside the north entrance of Camp Murray. I know there are still at least 2 there, but I have no idea how good they are anymore. There used to be several really tiny ones tied into laundry and tailoring services packed full of stuff the troops sold to them for near nothing.
If your trip brings you north closer to the border, I'll buy ya a beer or three.
Im getting my teeth worked on. On the reservation at Swinomish. Otherwise id meet you halfway or something. Thats cool that you live there. When we move home next year i plan to move to either Granite Falls or Darrington.
Ill look up some reviews of surplus stores. And see which ones are worth looking into. Very few good ones down here by me. As far as real surplus goes.
Probably the lightest chest rig you can get is something like the Blue Force Gear 10sp chest rig; while the beez has many lightweight features it still amounts to several layers of fabric to make the internal pouches. Any skeletonized/single layer laser cut modular chest rig also has to have pouch weight factored in; the single layer of elastic webbing for rifle mags is about as light as you can go.
The army surplus TAP is something like a very very heavy beez if price is more of a concern than weight; like most things standard issue it has entirely too many layers and a few too many features, but with some judicious scissor application its not the worst option.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 11, 2021, 10:03:53 PM
Probably the lightest chest rig you can get is something like the Blue Force Gear 10sp chest rig; while the beez has many lightweight features it still amounts to several layers of fabric to make the internal pouches. Any skeletonized/single layer laser cut modular chest rig also has to have pouch weight factored in; the single layer of elastic webbing for rifle mags is about as light as you can go.
The army surplus TAP is something like a very very heavy beez if price is more of a concern than weight; like most things standard issue it has entirely too many layers and a few too many features, but with some judicious scissor application its not the worst option.
I see that.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/USGI-OCP-Multicam-Molle-II-Tactical-Assault-Panel-TAP-Chest-Rig-GOOD-USED-/234024390024?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
What would u trim?
Quote from: RoneKiln on August 10, 2021, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 08:16:05 PM
Ive gotta find better surplus stores. Im going to Seattle on the 17th. Maybe ill drive down to fort lewis. And see if i can find any good surplus stores.
Half a lifetime ago there was a cluster of great ones just outside the north entrance of Camp Murray. I know there are still at least 2 there, but I have no idea how good they are anymore. There used to be several really tiny ones tied into laundry and tailoring services packed full of stuff the troops sold to them for near nothing.
If your trip brings you north closer to the border, I'll buy ya a beer or three.
that strip has changed somewhat, but there's a surplus store that looks like a small house on the main strip; used to have pallet boxes of gear you could dig thru doesn't look like it's changed at all.
Quote from: Tony D Tiger on August 11, 2021, 11:50:27 PM
Quote from: RoneKiln on August 10, 2021, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 09, 2021, 08:16:05 PM
Ive gotta find better surplus stores. Im going to Seattle on the 17th. Maybe ill drive down to fort lewis. And see if i can find any good surplus stores.
Half a lifetime ago there was a cluster of great ones just outside the north entrance of Camp Murray. I know there are still at least 2 there, but I have no idea how good they are anymore. There used to be several really tiny ones tied into laundry and tailoring services packed full of stuff the troops sold to them for near nothing.
If your trip brings you north closer to the border, I'll buy ya a beer or three.
that strip has changed somewhat, but there's a surplus store that looks like a small house on the main strip; used to have pallet boxes of gear you could dig thru doesn't look like it's changed at all.
I checked google reviews tonite. There is one with over 200 reviews. Looks like a good place. Called Washington Military Depot. In Spanaway. But i want to check out Lakewood too.
Ive hijacked this thread like a dozen times. My apologies Ronny
Quote from: Moab on August 11, 2021, 11:39:05 PM
What would u trim?
The lowest hanging fruit is the mesh pockets on the user side, especially that giant zipper. Depending on how you plan to retain magazines you might be able to trim all the flaps off as well. I removed one of the dividers to create larger pocket for a FAK insert. There are some plastic sheets off to the sides to stiffen some of the pockets if I recall, if you could remove that you'd likely be ahead.
Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?
I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.
Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fact I've never heard of this company until this past year.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 12, 2021, 05:48:00 PM
Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?
I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.
Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fa t I've never heard of this company until this past year.
Isnt ar500 or whatever its called cheaper?
Quote from: Moab on August 12, 2021, 08:23:56 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 12, 2021, 05:48:00 PM
Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?
I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.
Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fa t I've never heard of this company until this past year.
Isnt ar500 or whatever its called cheaper?
Depends on what package you get. AR500 seems to have sales on their stuff pretty frequently.
I've got a Freeman plate carrier and those seem to go on sale pretty often and seem to be the entry level carriers from AR500.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 12, 2021, 10:59:19 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 12, 2021, 08:23:56 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 12, 2021, 05:48:00 PM
Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?
I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.
Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fa t I've never heard of this company until this past year.
Isnt ar500 or whatever its called cheaper?
Depends on what package you get. AR500 seems to have sales on their stuff pretty frequently.
I've got a Freeman plate carrier and those seem to go on sale pretty often and seem to be the entry level carriers from AR500.
Classic sells alot of good stuff. And seems to have a great reputation. I couldn't imagine them not standing behind their products. They had a glock stock for sale last week that i wanted. But i passed. There prices are some of the best. And if i didn't live in CA I'd do there giveaways. They give away some great rifles
I've ordered three guns from Classic and they've been very helpful in getting my order placed (I usually call to place an order instead of doing it online.)
My last one was an SDS Imports/Tisas B45 Duty 1911.
As for the contests, I enter them when I want to, but I've yet to win anything. I'd have loved to have won that Barrett M82A1 and AK underfolder built by Brandon Herrera, but some dude in Kentucky won it instead.
Hope he has fun with either one.
Quote from: Moab on August 13, 2021, 12:32:01 AM
They give away some great rifles
...but they do it wrong. They're supposed to give them to me! :tickedoff:
:greenguy:
Quote from: Mr. E. Monkey on August 13, 2021, 04:14:10 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 13, 2021, 12:32:01 AM
They give away some great rifles
...but they do it wrong. They're supposed to give them to me! :tickedoff:
:greenguy:
I dont think tjey give any of them to cali members.
Quote from: Mr. E. Monkey on August 13, 2021, 04:14:10 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 13, 2021, 12:32:01 AM
They give away some great rifles
...but they do it wrong. They're supposed to give them to me! :tickedoff:
:greenguy:
I got excited one time when I thought I saw my name as the winner, but then I noticed the city and state were wrong. :gonk:
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 12, 2021, 05:48:00 PM
Anyone heard of or used anything made by a company called "Guard Dog" ?
I've been seeing a lot of their stuff on Classic Firearms and it looks interesting. The plate carriers and chest rigs are about 70 to 120 bucks, so the price is within range for most folks looking for a budget carrier or chest rig.
Only thing keeping me from grabbing one of their carriers is the fact I've never heard of this company until this past year.
Have you looked at LAPG too? They have their own line now. That seems pretty reasonable. I just got an email from them.
It's actually been a few years since I checked LAPG, Moab.
I think it was back in like 2011 when I was last on their site.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 13, 2021, 09:09:28 PM
It's actually been a few years since I checked LAPG, Moab.
I think it was back in like 2011 when I was last on their site.
They have gotten alot better. I just got one of there school backpacks for edc. Its 20 bucks. Pretty great for what it is. They also have kind of a 5.11 knock off brand of packs.
https://lapolicegear.com/lapg-bg-commuter-pack.html
That's not a bad looking bag! Looks like a nice balance between "everything having a place" and "pouches everywhere."
They have a whole line of backpacks and rifle cases that are very economical.
https://lapolicegear.com/brands/la-police-gear/lapg-tactical-bags-cases.html
So what do you guys think support gear for a bolt-action rifle might look like? Given how different the end-use is from a carbine, I'm guessing some kind of small pack.
My initial thought is to adapt some of what people carry for a typical precision match, borrow other elements from a vanilla hunting pack, and include one or two things you'd want on a chest rig or plate carrier (i.e IFAK). Have to pivot gun dollars away from my carbine and into my .308 build, because it's starting to sound like I'm going to need it completed for a non-optional hunting trip next year. Might as well build around it as I go. Would also conceptually go with my 700 Police in .223, which is finally set up the way I want it. But that is intended for shorter ranges.
In ZS terms, seeing potential to have this be a one-stop-shop for range use, hunting use, and potentially serving as a supplement to neighborhood security. In my James Wesley Rawles fever dreams I could see OP work or overwatch for like a neighborhood checkpoint (i.e. backing up carbines), but I have to admit those sound a bit ridiculous. So I have been going with "support gear for all lawful purposes" in my head.
So far my braindump sketch is something like this:
- Rear bag
- Some kind of larger positional bag (though I've only played with a few)
- Ammo mgmt & dope, etc.
- IFAK
- Sharpies / multitool / whatever else is currently in my admin pouch
- Compact binos
- Waterproof notebook
Obviously a Kestrel and a rangefinder are sort of implied but I don't have the money for those yet.
Hunting is sort of an afterthought because I just don't have the time for it and it really isn't a big interest of mine, but I'm going to be expected to do it by family members so would also toss in like a gut hook, etc.
What do you guys think?
Quote from: Lodewijk on October 19, 2021, 12:35:22 PM
So what do you guys think support gear for a bolt-action rifle might look like? Given how different the end-use is from a carbine, I'm guessing some kind of small pack.
My initial thought is to adapt some of what people carry for a typical precision match, borrow other elements from a vanilla hunting pack, and include one or two things you'd want on a chest rig or plate carrier (i.e IFAK). Have to pivot gun dollars away from my carbine and into my .308 build, because it's starting to sound like I'm going to need it completed for a non-optional hunting trip next year. Might as well build around it as I go. Would also conceptually go with my 700 Police in .223, which is finally set up the way I want it. But that is intended for shorter ranges.
In ZS terms, seeing potential to have this be a one-stop-shop for range use, hunting use, and potentially serving as a supplement to neighborhood security. In my James Wesley Rawles fever dreams I could see OP work or overwatch for like a neighborhood checkpoint (i.e. backing up carbines), but I have to admit those sound a bit ridiculous. So I have been going with "support gear for all lawful purposes" in my head.
So far my braindump sketch is something like this:
- Rear bag
- Some kind of larger positional bag (though I've only played with a few)
- Ammo mgmt & dope, etc.
- IFAK
- Sharpies / multitool / whatever else is currently in my admin pouch
- Compact binos
- Waterproof notebook
Obviously a Kestrel and a rangefinder are sort of implied but I don't have the money for those yet.
Hunting is sort of an afterthought because I just don't have the time for it and it really isn't a big interest of mine, but I'm going to be expected to do it by family members so would also toss in like a gut hook, etc.
What do you guys think?
I don't know what kind of shooter you are, but for both hunting and overwatch and "all lawful purposes" I would plan on 0-300 being my range. I would also set up with a lower powered scope, but that is not quite LBE.
For LBE I would consider a buttstock pouch with ammo and dope gear.
I assume this rifle does not have detachable mags.
For body I would look at IFAK, bipod, something for stock rest (socks?), something to carry a 3x3 or 4x4 camo net, bug dope, snacks, water, sniper veil/bug net/sweat rag, multi-tool if not already carried, cleaning kit (minimal, just if it takes a dump in water or snow), locktite (backup), whatever you want for gut/skinning knife (mine is a Mora), saw (bone/wood, folding or sheath).
If playing Call of Duty or otherwise concerned, carry pistol and ammo. I worked for a guy who carried a bow for elk and a 10mm for bears. But "10mm is too expensive to practice with, so I just load it up and carry it." We all make choices.
Bear spray, depending on hunting situation.
Smoke grenades, depending on Call of Duty position.
With the right pack I would ignore the bipod & butt rest.
Spare socks, survival kit, tarp or poncho, knit hat.
Just some ideas.
Quote from: woodsghost on October 19, 2021, 02:49:05 PM
I don't know what kind of shooter you are, but for both hunting and overwatch and "all lawful purposes" I would plan on 0-300 being my range. I would also set up with a lower powered scope, but that is not quite LBE.
For LBE I would consider a buttstock pouch with ammo and dope gear.
I assume this rifle does not have detachable mags.
For body I would look at IFAK, bipod, something for stock rest (socks?), something to carry a 3x3 or 4x4 camo net, bug dope, snacks, water, sniper veil/bug net/sweat rag, multi-tool if not already carried, cleaning kit (minimal, just if it takes a dump in water or snow), locktite (backup), whatever you want for gut/skinning knife (mine is a Mora), saw (bone/wood, folding or sheath).
If playing Call of Duty or otherwise concerned, carry pistol and ammo. I worked for a guy who carried a bow for elk and a 10mm for bears. But "10mm is too expensive to practice with, so I just load it up and carry it." We all make choices.
Bear spray, depending on hunting situation.
Smoke grenades, depending on Call of Duty position.
With the right pack I would ignore the bipod & butt rest.
Spare socks, survival kit, tarp or poncho, knit hat.
Just some ideas.
Good food for thought. Thank you.
To clarify - I'm building off of a 700 SPS Tactical in .308 to learn the basics of long-range shooting, now that I live in a place where that is a reasonably accessible thing to do, and (along with a similar build in .223, which I put together for Appleseed KDs) it will be my primary rifle for a while. I have a grab-and-go pistol bag, and a grab-and-go rimfire bag that I've dialed in over a number of squirrel seasons and Appleseeds (shooting and instructing), but I do not have one for either of my centerfire bolt-action rifles.
As a side note, the only reason I went with .308 is because it is what happened to be available on my last day at Remington. I bought it before I lost my employee discount, which was a few hundred bucks at the time.
All of my bolt guns have stock pouches. Like most people I use strips of yoga mat or mousepad to build a cheekpiece and then strap it all down with a stock pouch. No detachable mags as of right now.
My .223 has a 3.5-10x, which seems to cover .223 distances well enough. I will most likely be using a 5-25x and fancy reticle (or something similar) on the .308 for obvious reasons.
As far as what kind of shooting I do - the intent is to learn how to shoot past 500 yards and take my first few precision rifle classes with it (again, because accessibility seems pretty good compared to where I was in the East). I'm an old Appleseed guy and was shooting Distinguished before they handed out patches for that... I don't have a lot of interest in service rifle or high power, so this is the next logical step skills-wise. I have seen a few other Appleseed guys try to make the leap to more precision-style matches and not have it go cleanly, so I'm looking to take it slow and learn.
I don't know if I have a use for camo netting, but a skeeter net might not be a bad idea. And mentioning a tarp does prompt the question of a ground cloth, which doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Shamefully... yes, I will admit to having a shemagh in the "rifle bag" pile.
Not intended to be a LRRP larp bag (that's more or less what my bushcraft pack is for). Just something to go with the rifle that covers more than just a range.
Quote from: Lodewijk on October 19, 2021, 12:35:22 PM
In ZS terms, seeing potential to have this be a one-stop-shop for range use, hunting use, and potentially serving as a supplement to neighborhood security. In my James Wesley Rawles fever dreams I could see OP work or overwatch for like a neighborhood checkpoint (i.e. backing up carbines), but I have to admit those sound a bit ridiculous. So I have been going with "support gear for all lawful purposes" in my head.
"Coolness factor" is almost always rooted in the ridiculous. As long as we're self aware and have fun with it, it's cool and worthwhile. Hopefully that's all it ever is.
But start asking the same questions cause you're concerned about having to defend against snipers at 500 yards as part of your normal day working security at the local mall and... well... Ok, I gotta admit I sometimes miss those idiots posting. Some of the greatest comedy I've ever read was written by some of those guys.
I'll admit non-detachable magazine ammo management isn't something I give much thought to...since stripper clips are almost never an option with modern guns I'd say you are limited to a pouch for loose ammo, a bandolier for individual rounds, or some kind of shot card like the shotgun luddites use.
An HPG kit bag might serve your purposes for things like binos and accessories, but personally I'd want DBMs for anything beyond normal hunting use; and even then I'd prefer it.
Like Woodsghost said a good handgun might be essential to focus on for a backup to the bolt gat; might even be worth considering how to bump that handgun up to a borderline PDW like a glock with an Endo Adaptor and extended mags, or an RDS to extend the handgun into the awkward middle range where most people struggle to be accurate enough with a handgun or fast enough with a bolt.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on October 20, 2021, 12:08:00 AM
I'll admit non-detachable magazine ammo management isn't something I give much thought to...since stripper clips are almost never an option with modern guns I'd say you are limited to a pouch for loose ammo, a bandolier for individual rounds, or some kind of shot card like the shotgun luddites use.
Appleseed actually forced me to attempt solving for this - ten rounds to a stage on the AQT and no transitioning with a loaded rifle means you have to be creative to avoid dealing with loose rounds. The best solution I came up with was to find a stock pouch that held eight rounds (i.e. TacOps) and add a two-round SAP holder, then single-load every round for each stage. Ten slot Bam-doliers from Triad were the quickest way I found to refill everything between stages. This is all undoubtedly well beyond mallninja, but given the ruleset for the game I was playing it was not an unreasonable solution. For better or worse.
There was a period of time where I drilled this relatively often. It is not ideal, but it
can be done under AQT time constraints.
Just to be totally clear, I have NO illusions about the high-speed defensive application of a 15 pound bolt-action rifle. Navigating all that just to play a gun game was pretty sobering.
Quote from: Lodewijk on October 20, 2021, 12:48:08 AM
Quote from: RonnyRonin on October 20, 2021, 12:08:00 AM
I'll admit non-detachable magazine ammo management isn't something I give much thought to...since stripper clips are almost never an option with modern guns I'd say you are limited to a pouch for loose ammo, a bandolier for individual rounds, or some kind of shot card like the shotgun luddites use.
Appleseed actually forced me to attempt solving for this - ten rounds to a stage on the AQT and no transitioning with a loaded rifle means you have to be creative to avoid dealing with loose rounds. The best solution I came up with was to find a stock pouch that held eight rounds (i.e. TacOps) and add a two-round SAP holder, then single-load every round for each stage. Ten slot Bam-doliers from Triad were the quickest way I found to refill everything between stages. This is all undoubtedly well beyond mallninja, but given the ruleset for the game I was playing it was not an unreasonable solution. For better or worse.
There was a period of time where I drilled this relatively often. It is not ideal, but it can be done under AQT time constraints.
Just to be totally clear, I have NO illusions about the high-speed defensive application of a 15 pound bolt-action rifle. Navigating all that just to play a gun game was pretty sobering.
Yeah, I'm thinking that bolt action rifles en mass might be effective as defensive weapons, but a single man with a bolt action bring to mind the scenes from 'inglorious basterds' stolz der nation bell tower scene or 'saving private ryan' bell tower scene. I wouldn't want to put myself in that situation.
But there's tons of ways to carry single rounds for semi quick access. Side saddles mounted to buttstocks, or ammo cards on slings, plus the pouches that were used back in the great war on bandoleers. Then to restock those 'quick' access solutions you can just carry boxes in your pack/bag.
Another technique i've seen is to put 3 rounds in between your fingers on your off hand. But that is more of a single shot breach loading technique.
Quote from: RoneKiln on October 19, 2021, 11:01:05 PM
But start asking the same questions cause you're concerned about having to defend against snipers at 500 yards as part of your normal day working security at the local mall and... well... Ok, I gotta admit I sometimes miss those idiots posting. Some of the greatest comedy I've ever read was written by some of those guys.
Oh man...Gecko45, wasn't it? That takes me waaay back.
On topic, if a flashlight isn't part of your first line gear, Lodewijk (I'm sure you're way ahead of me on this one), I would consider adding one, or adding spare batteries for it if you already have one in your loadout. Hand-held, not weapon mounted, and maybe with a colored filter. Might be useful for hunting as far as finding your blind or firing position in the dark, or tracking a blood trail in the evening. Also potentially helpful as a signaling device. Depending on the cool-guy factor, a laser might be helpful in that regard as well, but probably not enough to seriously worry about adding it to the kit.
I have a Stylus Pro that I stuff in my pockets everyday but that doesn't really check the same boxes. A bigger light that'll take filters is a really good idea, I hadn't thought of that.
This could actually be it's own thread. Long range precision bolt rifle load out for patrol and hunting.
Agree - I'll write it up once I have enough junk assembled to warrant an OP.
(unless someone else does it first)
The power went out at my house for a couple of hours yesterday so I did a dry run to see how long it takes to 'gear up' in my 2nd line. [plus I was watching war movies since Sunday night which musta gotten me in the mood.]
I put on most of my 2nd line stuff, timed it and weighed myself. And also to get my new[ish] WPS rifle sling dialed in for fit while wearing plates and mark it. [different for w/ or w/out plates, as its not a quick adjust sling]
Rifle
Pistol w/ taclight and Safari QD ALS Holster
Battlebelt w/ 2 pistol 1 rifle mag pouch
LBR w/ 6 rifle mag pouches and 4 pistol mag pouches
Lvl 3+ 14" w/ carrier
8 rifle mags total including in the rifle
7 pistol mags total including in the pistol
= about 60lbs based on bathroom scale accuracy
And when I said most, that's not including hydration [~7lbs full] , fixed blade, MUT, HT radio, and TCCC IFACK [of which =~2.5lbs]. that would be about 70lbs total with all that added.
Right now I'm running LBR and plate carrier separate but they can be combined as one as they are modular to each other, which that change doesn't really affect the weight at all, only reducing by an X harness on the LBR. And wearing the LBR w/out plates happens more than with. I can and will probably get a separate setup for pouches that will be dedicated to the plate carrier, but that's about $175 more worth of gear for my preferred setup.
It'd been a while since I'd been in the plates, and after donning, just futzed around for a while wearing all of it including the firearms and mags. And weirdly, when I took off the LBR when I was done, I thought the plates felt really light after that. Like swinging a bat with weights on it I guess. But I didn't think the LBR weighed that much compared to the 22lb worth of plates. I didn't weigh anything separately.
The weight is not that bad for me, and everything seems balanced. It'd be more balanced with hydration on my back. I'll tell you, if I fell from a second story or had to jump down from over 6 ft that would hurt wearing this stuff. Even just diving for cover sometimes the top of the front plate hits my chin. So no Commander Taggert cartwheels.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/dd577ab368034a1e8b0ecd6f21583414/tumblr_nvlghvp7hj1ugfo44o1_400.gif)
Many years ago I bought two LBV88s for $15 each and a woodland FLC for $10. Also some woodland double mag pouches and triple mag shingles and ALICE triple mag pouches, all for $1-5 a piece.
It's funny that when I bought them woodland and ALICE were out of style and the cheaper options. I was ordering a bunch of other surplus stuff and I thought "this doesn't seem that important, but I'll probably never see such cheap prices again and it's better to have it and not need it, etc." Now the other day I decided to check prices on things and it's funny that woodland and ALICE stuff seems to have become retro and cool and gone way up in price while that ugly greyish digital camo (ACU?) is actually cheaper than the stuff I bought years ago when inflation is taken into account.
When I got it I felt that I was being a little tinfoil hat, but since it cost so little it was fine to indulge in a bit of paranoia. Since then I've slowly changed my mind, and I think second line gear is more sensible than I once thought it was.
I've mostly got Step 1 on MacWa77ace's procedure done. Now I've got to start going through the next steps. One thing I'm lacking in is very many pouches, as my brother hijacked all my double mag pouches to use as beer holders on the Hellcat backpack I put together for him, and I gave away all but one of my ALICE mag pouches stuffed full of magazines as Christmas presents. I'll need to dig through my bins of junk to see what I've actually got, but I figure I can start experimenting before I buy much of anything. I've been getting back into snowshoeing and adding a little LARPing could be fun. (I'm not using LARPing in a derogatory sense.)
I might pick up some more surplus on eBay to give out to others. I know several people with guns that don't seem to have any of this type of gear (that I know of). I've been seeing stuff for super cheap, and I could probably put together a few FLCs with a few pouches each for ~$15 a piece and partially solve my lack of pouches at the same time.
Quote from: Optimist on November 29, 2022, 06:43:10 PMMany years ago I bought two LBV88s for $15 each and a woodland FLC for $10. Also some woodland double mag pouches and triple mag shingles and ALICE triple mag pouches, all for $1-5 a piece.
It's funny that when I bought them woodland and ALICE were out of style and the cheaper options. I was ordering a bunch of other surplus stuff and I thought "this doesn't seem that important, but I'll probably never see such cheap prices again and it's better to have it and not need it, etc." Now the other day I decided to check prices on things and it's funny that woodland and ALICE stuff seems to have become retro and cool and gone way up in price while that ugly greyish digital camo (ACU?) is actually cheaper than the stuff I bought years ago when inflation is taken into account.
When I got it I felt that I was being a little tinfoil hat, but since it cost so little it was fine to indulge in a bit of paranoia. Since then I've slowly changed my mind, and I think second line gear is more sensible than I once thought it was.
I've mostly got Step 1 on MacWa77ace's procedure done. Now I've got to start going through the next steps. One thing I'm lacking in is very many pouches, as my brother hijacked all my double mag pouches to use as beer holders on the Hellcat backpack I put together for him, and I gave away all but one of my ALICE mag pouches stuffed full of magazines as Christmas presents. I'll need to dig through my bins of junk to see what I've actually got, but I figure I can start experimenting before I buy much of anything. I've been getting back into snowshoeing and adding a little LARPing could be fun. (I'm not using LARPing in a derogatory sense.)
I might pick up some more surplus on eBay to give out to others. I know several people with guns that don't seem to have any of this type of gear (that I know of). I've been seeing stuff for super cheap, and I could probably put together a few FLCs with a few pouches each for ~$15 a piece and partially solve my lack of pouches at the same time.
I recall that period of time as well. When woodland and alice was cheap and acu was on the budget highside.
I think what happened is everyone figured out acu was a terrible camo pattern. That woodland worked in a large swath of america. And was cheap. But then the army switched to multicam. A superior pattern and product designs. Which made the army dump a huge amount of acu on the surplus market. While woodland started running out. Remember when you could find a woodland mss for $100? Not anymore! $200 at least. And now an alice pack runs you a $100!
Also commercial packs in camo and subdued tones became more plentiful and lighter. As well as all sorts of camo and subdued gear.
If you're concerned about camo. You can now find lightweight commercial packs in multicam and most everything else you need in surplus multicam. Its not the cheapest. But its coming down. And at least its all the same pattern.
I think the cheap sweetspot these days. Although it will be far from the lightest is dyeing acu gear. If I had a large family or group to gear up. Its hard to beat outfitting everyone in acu. And dyeing it all with RIT dye. Its a very effective multishade of dirty green. If you use the right dye color.
But I think the sweetspot overall is multicam. Again if you're concerned about hiding from other people. A mix of commercial and surplus multicam gets you in a medium to lower price point. And the gear and clothing options are endless. Its really the only camo pattern you can find your entire kit in these days.
I won't go into sniper detail. But there is a reason the militaries around the world try to outfit everyone in the same pattern. And your best served by copying that. If you want to effectively stay hidden.
Lastly, I would even say woodland is a superior pattern in most of the northern us. But good luck finding everything you need, in modern designs, in woodland. And some stuff just isn't available anymore.
Woodland is awesome in my region and I miserably failed to appreciate the opportunities to get good solid gear for near nothing from surplus stores in my youth.
I've actually thought about switching my gear from coyote tan to Multicam since Multicam seems to be the more plentiful camo pattern.
Only other fighting gear I've got is in Mall Ninja Black and that's being reserved for my back up set ups (namely for my AR and G17. Main rig is set up for my AK and G21.).
Quote from: MoabI think what happened is everyone figured out acu was a terrible camo pattern. That woodland worked in a large swath of america. And was cheap. But then the army switched to multicam. A superior pattern and product designs. Which made the army dump a huge amount of acu on the surplus market. While woodland started running out. Remember when you could find a woodland mss for $100? Not anymore! $200 at least. And now an alice pack runs you a $100!
Wow, I've bought three large alice packs with frames over the years, two of which were $5 a piece and one was $15. :eek1:
QuoteI won't go into sniper detail. But there is a reason the militaries around the world try to outfit everyone in the same pattern. And your best served by copying that. If you want to effectively stay hidden.
Is that because having non-matching camo colors tends to draw attention, or because they want to have identifiable patterns to avoid friendly fire?
I ordered a couple ranger green Esstac Kywi belt pouches. I wanted to make sure they held up in really cold weather before buying any more and also I thought it would be good to see how the color worked in real life. I think OD would be really good here in the summer but in the winter the only green thing is dark green spruce needles.
I think your suggestion of RIT dying the gear is probably the best thing for me to do since I have such a hodgepodge of stuff already and I don't want to spend too much money on this stuff. (Those two single magazine Esstac pouches cost more than all the LBE stuff and pouches I bought previously combined, it was kind of shocking.) Do you know how reflective RIT dye is under IR light? Seems like night vision is becoming more and more of a concern.
I've been thinking about it and I think the ACU/UCP might actually not be terrible in the winter here as most everything that is not white and dark green is some shade of gray.
I wonder if we should start a camouflage thread? It's not high on my list of practical concerns but it's something I find interesting, especially after I spent some time researching it related to painting models.
Quote from: Optimist on December 05, 2022, 07:58:01 PMQuote from: MoabI think what happened is everyone figured out acu was a terrible camo pattern. That woodland worked in a large swath of america. And was cheap. But then the army switched to multicam. A superior pattern and product designs. Which made the army dump a huge amount of acu on the surplus market. While woodland started running out. Remember when you could find a woodland mss for $100? Not anymore! $200 at least. And now an alice pack runs you a $100!
Wow, I've bought three large alice packs with frames over the years, two of which were $5 a piece and one was $15. :eek1:
QuoteI won't go into sniper detail. But there is a reason the militaries around the world try to outfit everyone in the same pattern. And your best served by copying that. If you want to effectively stay hidden.
Is that because having non-matching camo colors tends to draw attention, or because they want to have identifiable patterns to avoid friendly fire?
I ordered a couple ranger green Esstac Kywi belt pouches. I wanted to make sure they held up in really cold weather before buying any more and also I thought it would be good to see how the color worked in real life. I think OD would be really good here in the summer but in the winter the only green thing is dark green spruce needles.
I think your suggestion of RIT dying the gear is probably the best thing for me to do since I have such a hodgepodge of stuff already and I don't want to spend too much money on this stuff. (Those two single magazine Esstac pouches cost more than all the LBE stuff and pouches I bought previously combined, it was kind of shocking.) Do you know how reflective RIT dye is under IR light? Seems like night vision is becoming more and more of a concern.
I've been thinking about it and I think the ACU/UCP might actually not be terrible in the winter here as most everything that is not white and dark green is some shade of gray.
I wonder if we should start a camouflage thread? It's not high on my list of practical concerns but it's something I find interesting, especially after I spent some time researching it related to painting models.
Some of the Esstac belt clips say they work well in subzero and high temps. But I couldn't find where it said that for the mag pouches' inserts. I'm interested in your test results although I don't think I'll ever be in sub freezing climes in my AO. When you said that, I thought about putting them in our 0 degree freezer but then decided not to have to explain why there are mag pouches in there. LOL. Maybe just the inserts in a ziplock with some strawberries as cammo.
How are you using the pistol mags on your belt? 1.5" is kinda narrow for a belt used outside the beltloops of your pants. Are you running the belt thru your beltloops?
I got the 2" clips for a two inch belt, but the way the clips go on there is going to be a point where they aren't secure. I don't think that would be going from 1.75" to 1.5" though. May just be a little loose.
Quote from: MacWa77aceHow are you using the pistol mags on your belt? 1.5" is kinda narrow for a belt used outside the beltloops of your pants. Are you running the belt thru your beltloops?
I got the 2" clips for a two inch belt, but the way the clips go on there is going to be a point where they aren't secure. I don't think that would be going from 1.75" to 1.5" though. May just be a little loose.
I'm planning to use them on a 1.5" belt. My everyday belt that I run through the belt loops on my pants. I'm hoping the 1.75" attachments fit without being too loose, as many companies don't seem to make modern pouches for 1.5" belts.
It might be worth me getting a 1.75" belt, but one consideration is that most of my friends and family have normal belts and I wouldn't be able to share pouches with them if the 1.75" clips don't fit.
I should mention that these belt pouches are first-line gear. I'm willing to spend more money on that as I figure it is more likely to be useful.
I want to know if the kydex inserts will break in cold weather, but I imagine that these will most likely be close to my body and if it's really cold they'll be covered by a jacket and/or I won't be wearing a pants belt at all.
I know there are a bunch of Alaskans that like belt setups for second-line gear as they can add or remove layers without having to take the belt off and without covering everything up and making it inaccessible. I might have to look into experimenting with that, especially as I'm interested in figuring out a pulk sled setup.
Quote from: Optimist on December 06, 2022, 11:58:21 AMQuote from: MacWa77aceHow are you using the pistol mags on your belt? 1.5" is kinda narrow for a belt used outside the beltloops of your pants. Are you running the belt thru your beltloops?
I got the 2" clips for a two inch belt, but the way the clips go on there is going to be a point where they aren't secure. I don't think that would be going from 1.75" to 1.5" though. May just be a little loose.
I'm planning to use them on a 1.5" belt. My everyday belt that I run through the belt loops on my pants. I'm hoping the 1.75" attachments fit without being too loose, as many companies don't seem to make modern pouches for 1.5" belts.
It might be worth me getting a 1.75" belt, but one consideration is that most of my friends and family have normal belts and I wouldn't be able to share pouches with them if the 1.75" clips don't fit.
I should mention that these belt pouches are first-line gear. I'm willing to spend more money on that as I figure it is more likely to be useful.
I want to know if the kydex inserts will break in cold weather, but I imagine that these will most likely be close to my body and if it's really cold they'll be covered by a jacket and/or I won't be wearing a pants belt at all.
I know there are a bunch of Alaskans that like belt setups for second-line gear as they can add or remove layers without having to take the belt off and without covering everything up and making it inaccessible. I might have to look into experimenting with that, especially as I'm interested in figuring out a pulk sled setup.
I don't think I'd've thought of using Esstacs as first line, on body, mag holders. There's a bunch of kydex belt holsters that work for smaller belts and are even belt thickness adjustable. I even have a double mag set that has a 'paddle' that just inserts into your waistband but the mags are outside. Can't remember the brand right now, I'll have to look when I get home. That being said I've currently got a Condor double mag molle carrier in my bag with 2 back up mags for my PD. Just stuffed in there, not attached on any molle.
paddle style double mag kydex like this.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi5.walmartimages.com%2Fasr%2Fd74cee83-9053-4d4c-abbe-e4b51228032f_1.70ff40d6411aa50f0363e8e7746bc613.jpeg%3FodnWidth%3D612%26odnHeight%3D612%26odnBg%3Dffffff&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=6ab6a2c72f6a770f11ed7e3e91b5c65328e22f37326df0206a5b40ceb8984991&ipo=images)
Quote from: MacWa77aceI don't think I'd've thought of using Esstacs as first line, on body, mag holders. There's a bunch of kydex belt holsters that work for smaller belts and are even belt thickness adjustable. I even have a double mag set that has a 'paddle' that just inserts into your waistband but the mags are outside. Can't remember the brand right now, I'll have to look when I get home. That being said I've currently got a Condor double mag molle carrier in my bag with 2 back up mags for my PD. Just stuffed in there, not attached on any molle.
paddle style double mag kydex like this.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi5.walmartimages.com%2Fasr%2Fd74cee83-9053-4d4c-abbe-e4b51228032f_1.70ff40d6411aa50f0363e8e7746bc613.jpeg%3FodnWidth%3D612%26odnHeight%3D612%26odnBg%3Dffffff&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=6ab6a2c72f6a770f11ed7e3e91b5c65328e22f37326df0206a5b40ceb8984991&ipo=images)
I probably should have done a little more research before buying the Esstacs. I just heard a bunch of people here and other places saying they were good, so I went ahead and bought a couple to test, but police gear might be a lot more suited to what I'm thinking about than military gear.
I think I'm guilty of abusing the term "first-line gear" as I'm using it more in the sense of EDC than E&E. What I imagine as likely for my friends and family out here is that if things get bad we'd start adding a lot more stuff to our belts (full-size handguns with extra mags, radios, first aid, maybe long gun ammo) but we'd still need to be working our butts off on tasks like gardening and harvesting fire wood. Carrying a rifle and a bunch of second-line gear would be exhausting, but it might not be a bad idea to have that stuff nearby in case there is advanced warning like hearing gunshots or a neighbor calling us on the radio.
If things get really, really bad to the point where it seems necessary to always have a long gun and gear on our persons then I imagine it's past time for us to pack up and move out to one of our cabins totally off the road system and lay low. That would suck for obvious reasons but especially as we would be relying entirely on finite pre-stocked supplies.
Quote from: Optimist on December 06, 2022, 12:44:05 PMI probably should have done a little more research before buying the Esstacs. I just heard a bunch of people here and other places saying they were good, so I went ahead and bought a couple to test, but police gear might be a lot more suited to what I'm thinking about than military gear.
I think I'm guilty of abusing the term "first-line gear" as I'm using it more in the sense of EDC than E&E. What I imagine as likely for my friends and family out here is that if things get bad we'd start adding a lot more stuff to our belts (full-size handguns with extra mags, radios, first aid, maybe long gun ammo) but we'd still need to be working our butts off on tasks like gardening and harvesting fire wood. Carrying a rifle and a bunch of second-line gear would be exhausting, but it might not be a bad idea to have that stuff nearby in case there is advanced warning like hearing gunshots or a neighbor calling us on the radio.
If things get really, really bad to the point where it seems necessary to always have a long gun and gear on our persons then I imagine it's past time for us to pack up and move out to one of our cabins totally off the road system and lay low. That would suck for obvious reasons but especially as we would be relying entirely on finite pre-stocked supplies.
Esstac are excellent mag holders. Now you just need to build a complete 2nd line kit around that one mag holder, LOL. :awesome:
'First line' in the context of this '2nd line' thread means EDC to me also. And when you added in the 'handing out to friends and family' I understood that it meant open carry which may or may not be legal in all AO's in all apocalypse scenarios. But there are a lot of 'open carry' mag holders that aren't cammo and are more streamlined and EDC even for 1" belts. And the belt clips are adjustable to fit from 1" to 1.75" in some cases.
Don't forget you can run a security team to oversee the workers. The 'team' would probably have their 2nd line kit on, while the 'workers' would just have their EDC, whether that be open carry or concealed [for pistol mags also IWB]
I'm glad my blathering made sense. I'm on vacation down in Florida and I think the sun has addled my brain.
Quote from: MacWa77aceDon't forget you can run a security team to oversee the workers. The 'team' would probably have their 2nd line kit on, while the 'workers' would just have their EDC, whether that be open carry or concealed [for pistol mags also IWB]
That makes sense. I wonder if having a dedicated security team for a whole "shift" makes sense or if everyone capable taking more frequent rotations of being on watch makes more sense? Frequent rotations would give people more of a chance to take a breather from the regular work and less time to get bored of keeping a lookout, but that means the people on watch would also be at least somewhat worn out from working. I imagine it's pretty dependent on the particular circumstances.
Quote from: Optimist on December 06, 2022, 02:26:41 PMI'm glad my blathering made sense. I'm on vacation down in Florida and I think the sun has addled my brain.
Naaah, I live here year round and the sun is so low now that even at high noon that it feels to me like having a kitten fall asleep on your chest. :awesome: But visit us here in July, then it'll feel like your standing in the anti matter chamber on the Starship Enterprise.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scifimoviezone.com%2Fimagestartrek%2Fstartrek82033.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=2dc222eda64208216d1edb567cddce7caff1d2ce05cde808a7bc193571200b01&ipo=images)
I'm just glad I can still go in my pool so far this year, pool temp was 74 degrees Saturday, so I jumped in after mowing the lawn. If the pool temp drops much lower I'll have to wait for the spring thaw before I go in again. This Florida boy ain't no polar club member. Florida polar club starts at 69 degrees IIRC. LOL.
Wasn't sure whether to put this in here or in one of the bargain threads, but Varusteleka has British surplus Osprey vests with a bunch of pouches for $40. The pouches people are getting with these seem a little random, but it sounds like a lot of people are getting 10+.
https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/british-osprey-load-bearing-vest-package-desert-dpm-surplus/6149 (https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/british-osprey-load-bearing-vest-package-desert-dpm-surplus/6149)
I made myself pass the last couple times they were in stock but I decided to get a couple of them this time mostly to get an assortment of pouches.
The desert camo doesn't really fit with my area, but I figure I can dye and paint them. Pegasus Tests has a couple videos on these, including one where he dyes one OD green. A few things didn't take the dye but I figure I can always paint them.
Well thanks I just bought it if nothing else I'm gonna try dying it. My plate carrier I got used but only slightly and it's tan. Where I'm in the PNW ana tan is no bueno. I've just been holding off on doing anything because I don't want to mess it up.
Got the surplus Osprey vests. One came with nine pouches and one came with ten. These are the pouches I got:
6x utility pouches*
1x small utility pouch
2x knife/flashlight pouches
2x 40mm genrade pouches**
2x AP grenade pouches
2x medical pouches
3x SA80 ammunition (magazine) pouches
1x water bottle pouch
*Got a lot of these but they seem pretty useful. They have and expandable collar with cinch string (in addition to the regular clasp) and and are lined with a material that I suspect is waterproof, which seems good in my wet environment. I think they might fit a standard size nalgene bottle but I don't have any on hand to test with.
**these don't have the open bottoms like some do.
Some of them seem almost brand new, while other you can definitely tell they were used, but everything is in pretty good shape.
I ordered some dark green RIT dye. I'm on the fence about finding a recipe, testing it on one pouch and then adjusting, or just going for it and dying everything at once because I'm lazy,
Got mine as well and couldn't find this post. I'm less than thrilled. I got 6 punches 3 canteen and 3 3 mag pouches.
The mag pouches are cool but 3 canteen?!? And most of the ouches are stained red.
Quote from: Halfapint on January 08, 2023, 10:06:34 AMGot mine as well and couldn't find this post. I'm less than thrilled. I got 6 punches 3 canteen and 3 3 mag pouches.
The mag pouches are cool but 3 canteen?!? And most of the ouches are stained red.
Oh, that stinks. You want to trade a water bottle pouch for a utility pouch? They aren't that different overall. The utility pouch is a little smaller but has the expanding collar with the cinch cord.
Quote from: Optimist on January 08, 2023, 03:59:25 PMQuote from: Halfapint on January 08, 2023, 10:06:34 AMGot mine as well and couldn't find this post. I'm less than thrilled. I got 6 punches 3 canteen and 3 3 mag pouches.
The mag pouches are cool but 3 canteen?!? And most of the ouches are stained red.
Oh, that stinks. You want to trade a water bottle pouch for a utility pouch? They aren't that different overall. The utility pouch is a little smaller but has the expanding collar with the cinch cord.
I'm dumb and didn't actually take the utility pouches just looked like a water bottle. They are actually utility pouches. I finally took them off about 5 minutes ago was coming back here to edit when you commented 🤣
Feeling around it turns out that most all of the pouches are rubberized inside,except the smallest ones don't have rubberized lids (or whatever you call the top of a pouch).
Quote from: Optimist on January 08, 2023, 04:52:19 PMFeeling around it turns out that most all of the pouches are rubberized inside,except the smallest ones don't have rubberized lids (or whatever you call the top of a pouch).
I've always just called it a flap.
Flap seems like the right word. I've been abstaining from coffee and my brain hasn't been working well.
I made a huge write up on rit dying web gear. ("Web gear" is what it was called back in the day. I guess because of the woven web belt you hung everything off of. Not sure what the cool kids call it now.) I found a couple good test vids and threads at the time. You might find it in the old zs at internet archive.
Dark green rit dye boiled in water seemed to be the ticket. Testing was the preferred method. Using whatever type of water you had and run of dye and type of gear. Back then it was ACU. There was a ton of it for cheap. I assume that is the same case. But your UK stuff is going to turn out different. Because your starting with a different colored gear. The good news is the rit dye works on the plastic too. At least it does on ACU gear.
See if you can find youtube vids or threads online with tests on your specific UK gear color. It depends on various factors but length of time boiling is the big one.
Or just wing it. Bring some dark green rit dye and water to a boil. Set it in for say 2 or 5 minutes. Pull it. Let it dry. See how it turns out. You can always dye it again for a longer time.
ACU turned out good enough with dark green or brown or a combo. Its not rocket science. You just need it to be a dirty or dirty green color. Its not gonna look great. But its gonna look way better than tan or red or acu in the PNW.
One thing I adhere to is using the same camo pattern for all your gear. For your AO. I won't bore u with why.
I have not priced multicam lately. But that is the pattern you can get everything in fairly economically. Clothing. Gear. Pack. Etc etc.
But if I was going to outfit myself or a family or a militia. On the cheap. I would use rit dye for sure. On the cheapest usable stuff I could find. And even if it doesnt all match thats ok too. As long as its all dirty colored ir dirty green Better to have dull colored gear and all outfitted. Than not.
I keep saying dirty green or dirty brown cause that is the best you can hope for. Rit isnt going to change it to the color on the package. Because your not starting with white. Your dying a shit color with a slightly less shit color. Lol. But you'd be surprised how earth tone it will come out. It will work as camo way better than the tan.
I wonder if anyone has put together like a complete minuteman loadout on the cheap using rit dye? So you can at least get the cheapest loadout by dying all the crappy colored, cheap gear, you could find? That would be an obviously good project. Like combat fatigues, pack, web gear, the whole deal. Back when they switched to multicam. You could get everything in ACU. And rit dye it. It was heavy as hell. But if your just bugging in or a short bugout it wouldn't matter.
Remeber oda617 (or whatever his name was?) On the old forum? The special forces guy? He had like a 200lb loadout that included all acu gear. But his bugout was like a 5 mile truck ride to his bugout property. Most of his weight was a ridiculous amount of guns and ammo tho.
Quote from: Moab on January 17, 2023, 07:16:53 PMI made a huge write up on rit dying web gear. ("Web gear" is what it was called back in the day. I guess because of the woven web belt you hung everything off of. Not sure what the cool kids call it now.) I found a couple good test vids and threads at the time. You might find it in the old zs at internet archive.
Dark green rit dye boiled in water seemed to be the ticket. Testing was the preferred method. Using whatever type of water you had and run of dye and type of gear. Back then it was ACU. There was a ton of it for cheap. I assume that is the same case. But your UK stuff is going to turn out different. Because your starting with a different colored gear. The good news is the rit dye works on the plastic too. At least it does on ACU gear.
See if you can find youtube vids or threads online with tests on your specific UK gear color. It depends on various factors but length of time boiling is the big one.
Or just wing it. Bring some dark green rit dye and water to a boil. Set it in for say 2 or 5 minutes. Pull it. Let it dry. See how it turns out. You can always dye it again for a longer time.
ACU turned out good enough with dark green or brown or a combo. Its not rocket science. You just need it to be a dirty or dirty green color. Its not gonna look great. But its gonna look way better than tan or red or acu in the PNW.
One thing I adhere to is using the same camo pattern for all your gear. For your AO. I won't bore u with why.
I have not priced multicam lately. But that is the pattern you can get everything in fairly economically. Clothing. Gear. Pack. Etc etc.
But if I was going to outfit myself or a family or a militia. On the cheap. I would use rit dye for sure. On the cheapest usable stuff I could find. And even if it doesnt all match thats ok too. As long as its all dirty colored ir dirty green Better to have dull colored gear and all outfitted. Than not.
I keep saying dirty green or dirty brown cause that is the best you can hope for. Rit isnt going to change it to the color on the package. Because your not starting with white. Your dying a shit color with a slightly less shit color. Lol. But you'd be surprised how earth tone it will come out. It will work as camo way better than the tan.
I wonder if anyone has put together like a complete minuteman loadout on the cheap using rit dye? So you can at least get the cheapest loadout by dying all the crappy colored, cheap gear, you could find? That would be an obviously good project. Like combat fatigues, pack, web gear, the whole deal. Back when they switched to multicam. You could get everything in ACU. And rit dye it. It was heavy as hell. But if your just bugging in or a short bugout it wouldn't matter.
Remeber oda617 (or whatever his name was?) On the old forum? The special forces guy? He had like a 200lb loadout that included all acu gear. But his bugout was like a 5 mile truck ride to his bugout property. Most of his weight was a ridiculous amount of guns and ammo tho.
This is the info I wanted to read! All my stuff is coyote or "sand" colored. And that is opposite what I need. So my plan was to dye it with Rit. So that's great. I was found to do exactly as you said. Boil. Put in for 5 minutes set to dry then wash sit it doesn't bleed. Than redye if needed.
Sorry, half. I didnt get an email notification that you'd responded.
Glad I could help. Check out youtube too. Someone may have already done your test.
Quote from: Moab on January 23, 2023, 01:38:53 AMSorry, half. I didnt get an email notification that you'd responded.
Glad I could help. Check out youtube too. Someone may have already done your test.
No worries! I don't get emails either which is why I often don't check the site as regularly as I want/should.
I did a couple test pieces with dark green Rit dye, mostly following instructions on the bottle. I brought 5/6 of the water to a boil, dumped in 1/6 of cold water* so that it wouldn't be quite at boiling, mixed in some vinegar and salt** and the recommended amount of dye. I stirred the stuff around every fifteen minutes and pulled out a couple pieces at 30 minutes and the other two at an hour.
*I've heard different things about boiling water. Some people do it straight into boiling and other say it should be hot but not boiling. I figured 1/6 cold would be short of boiling by a little bit and would be a repeatable ratio.
**The bottle said vinegar for synthetics and salt for natural fibers. I used the recommended amount of vinegar, but I threw in about half the amount of salt as I figured it wouldn't hurt.
For the British DPM desert I did two grenade pouches. Some of the British stuff has very light tan webbing and edges, while some has a much darker brown. At first I thought it might be fading but I actually think it's different from the factory. For comparison I have the vest with the darker brown webbing and a utility pouch with the light tan. The grenade pouch that has the lighter green border is one that started out light tan and the brown grenade pouch started out dark brown. The The dark brown pouch was taken out at 30 minutes and the light tan/green was taken out at an hour.
(https://i.imgur.com/vodnpmd.jpg)
The one that was in for longer looks more noticeably green in the picture, but I wonder how much is the effect of having the lighter green edges effecting how it is perceived? Holding the two pouches side-by-side the main material doesn't look that different.
For ACU/UCP I didn't have many pouches to test (yet) but I was able to scrounge up a canteen pouch and a bandolier. The canteen pouch was taken out at 30 minutes and the bandolier was taken out at an hour. There isn't a huge difference in color between the two dyed pouches, but the camera actually seems to take away some of the color difference between the dyed and undyed. It looks more noticeable to my naked eye.
(https://i.imgur.com/0gI3dc1.jpg)
Here are the pouches with some Woodland and Olive Drab for comparison.
(https://i.imgur.com/gS1ITi7.jpg)
(Unfortunately I couldn't find my two small Ranger Green pouches for comparison.)
The grenade pouch that turned out more green actually doesn't look that far off Woodland. I've got a little newer and faded older Woodland for comparison.
(https://i.imgur.com/TOZHZHW.jpg)
I wish I had read Moab's thread about dying a pack with that combination of other dye's earlier, but I had this stuff and decided to wing it. I'm fairly happy with how the ACU/UCP turned out, as I was going for green but not super vibrant green as then I figure I could tie on some bright green in the summer and white in the winter and have it be good year-round. I'm tempted to throw the Desert DPM in the dye for a little longer and see how it turns out.
I saved the dye from the previous night. I brought it back up to 200*F, and put in a splash more salt and vinegar. I put two more Desert DPM pouches in, but this time for two hours. Strangely they didn't seem to take the dye as well as the grenade pouches that were in for a shorter amount of time. I think my dye might have been off for some reason, so I think I'll toss it and start over but go for double the concentration rather than double the time. Maybe it was the type of pouch though? The first two I did were grenade pouches, while the second two were utility pouches. I don't think that would make a difference as they seem to be the same material.
Also through the bandolier in for another hour. It did get darker, so the dye was working at least somewhat. The camera tends to wash out the differences between the three, they are more noticeable to my eye.
(https://i.imgur.com/RocLNHq.jpg)
I ordered some more dark green dye. Maybe I should order some other colors and experiment with them, but I kind of like the idea of something super simple (ideally following the directions on the bottle) so that I can remember it and it will also be easy to tell friends and family.
I need to get off my butt and order some cheap ACU/UCP pouches, but it always takes too long because I obsessively hunt for the best deals and then get sick of it and don't buy anything.
I thought I'd do one or two test pieces and then dye everything, but I haven't quite found the color I like and I actually enjoy the process. To keep from cluttering this thread up with frequent updates I'm going to start a new one dedicated to my experiments with dying stuff.
Here's a last group shot with some of the test pieces next to undyed woodland, OD green, ACU/UCP and desert DPM.
(https://i.imgur.com/kpaDHDA.jpg?1)
I put in a big order for cheap ACU/UCP pouches and FLCs. These are both to use as test pieces for dying and also as gifts for people I know who don't have anything like that. I focused on stuff that could be had inexpensively so the final price per vest and a few pouches should be pretty low.
I'll hop on the dying thread. I had some green rit dye and I just wanted to do small and wanted to get it dark. So I through about half a gallon of HOT water into a gallon ziploc bag and threw a grenade pouch and a water bottle pouch into it. Let it sit about 20 minutes and then washed them. I'll say. I like how dark they turned out, but it's a little more bright green than I was expecting. Maybe I'll let them fry, wash them again in HOT water wirh some stronger detergent and put them in a bag of black. We'll see
Quote from: Halfapint on July 09, 2023, 08:49:36 PMI'll hop on the dying thread. I had some green rit dye and I just wanted to do small and wanted to get it dark. So I through about half a gallon of HOT water into a gallon ziploc bag and threw a grenade pouch and a water bottle pouch into it. Let it sit about 20 minutes and then washed them. I'll say. I like how dark they turned out, but it's a little more bright green than I was expecting. Maybe I'll let them fry, wash them again in HOT water wirh some stronger detergent and put them in a bag of black. We'll see
Do you think we should make a new thread more generically about dying gear or add stuff to Moab's post about dying an ACU backpack? I wasn't sure which way would be better.
The pouches I tried to dye dark green came out a brighter green than I expected too. It's not that the actual darkness of the green isn't what I was going for, but rather that it has a pretty vibrant, intense look that I wasn't expecting. I did take a couple pouches with me when I was out in the woods and the spruce was also brighter than in my memory. In my mind I picture a more bluish grey color but maybe that's because I'm usually thinking about them in winter? I really should wait until winter to look at some of the test pieces before committing but it's a fun process so I might not be able to resist.
(https://i.imgur.com/N39wjoM.jpg)
(You can also see the difference between last year's growth and the newer growth on the spruce tips.)
Edit: Found a picture of spruce during the winter and it is more like what I was thinking of, but of course the colors of other things like the white snow and my red and yellow gloves will effect how the green is perceived.
(https://i.imgur.com/tNIQFLt.jpg)
Could probably start a new one so we don't take over others threads
Ordered some inexpensive surplus ACU stuff on eBay. I got a good deal on like-new FLCs back in December. I ordered some pouches earlier this month to go with them. I tried to leverage buying things in lots and getting stuff that was in well worn but functional condition to keep the cost down.
This is what I came up with for gear to give away: FLC, 2x triple mag shingles, 2x double mag pouches, grenade pouch, British utility pouch. It's a little hard to estimate exact cost since I got some of these things in bundles and Halfapint is sending me some, but I think they are a little less than $25 a set.
(https://i.imgur.com/sVteYRs.jpg)
I've got four of them total. I chose the pouches I did because they could be had for about $2 each, where as other pouches like canteen, first aid, utility and whatnot generally seem to be $7 and up. I figure not every mag pouch has to be used for mags, for example, but since they were the cheapest I got a lot of them.
These aren't something I'm waiting to hand out during a disaster, I've got people in mind to give them to now. I'm not in a hurry though, so I'll probably take the time to dye them. (This is unlike the tourniquets I got to be Christmas presents, but then when they arrived I gave them all away immediately because if something happened before Christmas I would have felt awful.)
Slightly off-topic but I've been looking for belt pouches that fit regular old pants belts and everything I find seems to be MOLLE/PALS. I'm glad that stuff is so readily available, but I'm looking for a few pouches that will fit my leather belt (double layer heavy leather with a kydex stiffener, so it's a bit more than a regular belt).
Most of the products I find online say they also work with pants belts but in the pictures they just run the belt through the MOLLE straps. In my experience this makes for a super loose and floppy pouch that's incredibly annoying. Maybe there's some trick I'm missing?
Hiking/jogging stuff all seems to have moved to water bladders or tiny bottles you hold in your hand while running. I tried looking for "duty" pouches on LAPG but they were mostly focused on tiny stuff like handcuffs and pepper spray.
I've been wanting to replace carrying a daypack when out on short hikes with belt pouches. A water bottle pouch or two, FAK, holster, knife and possibles/GP pouch. I've been thinking about maybe spending the money on one of the two layer inner-outer belt systems that seem possible these days but was thinking it would be cheaper to test out how I like it with my existing heavy leather belt first. Maybe I need to buy some knockoff Chinese inner-outer belt system for testing and then upgrade to a more durable one if I decide I like it?
Edit: I also have a preference for more outdoorsy looking pouches and less tactical looking pouches. I never seem to run into anyone out in the woods but I seem to frequently run into tourists while getting ready to go out and I'm self-conscious about feeling like a chunky mall ninja.
Esstac has these belt/molle plastic clips. They would work on any molle equipment to attach to a 1.75 or 2 in belts.
They might be too big for 1 or 1.5 street belts.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-4z9lxo7ou8/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/140/399/26fc5f_1f1d0c39c0834a22828e408b95bf8c7fmv2_d_5184_3456_s_4_2__69152.1594355957.jpg?c=1)
there are hard plastic molle clips, they might work better to keep stuff 'tighter' on the street belts.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shoplightspeed.com%2Fshops%2F629496%2Ffiles%2F15954466%2F1600x2048x2%2Fg-code-g-code-r1-molle-clips-pair.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=10b2e1ad2dc750ed197ee94092aac1ab5eb00aef73b1ec5721fc4a5b7e26b61a&ipo=images)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.auprep.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FMOLLE_STICKS_01WG_1200.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8b0ea52fc4d441e55b8fa38ec3ed993991a8a40352abefeb2b1a072ed9f36171&ipo=images)
Or just use those molle thigh rigs. Offbelt.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fop2.0ps.us%2F365-240-ffffff%2Fopplanet-specter-314-coy-front-as-smart-object-1-242-detail.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=540f71f81e6d1e3be21d3962b459c7cbd94ff28be463f36819f313615af0fa15&ipo=images)
I don't see anything in leather. What about something like this ?
https://www.amazon.com/FAMI-Tactical-Bottle-Waterproof-Bag-Tan/dp/B0BKG4HCD2/ref=sr_1_42?crid=2GMMHIM0GSIG5&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Z6cyybOhi1krwIIAOFI0afVFnWkQ5uaauIzIOCtJZ28sR5fUJUIxEPXrr24QTuH-Dudm7qW-dnLJzwJlDAA3b5CA1QAuATcTGC5kpUJain_1L1ouhmz3zexK3H-vgzAiAlp8DfWJqciSr2wH9JJ57Oi2xi_X0EBAeQ4LstHe7UAgs_BBCsKHZItON96ZORW6IT0pw_nQnU5Dycv7tNY4I2lmHQwyR9DhfE4_zeBwM9ItuuBkqSz43tbGY7V62eCOVgqQyeBUXRm_Jek0TLePckU_TVgfZFhp9JH6YkAfwrg.7fpwe_th7VTTe0F5EpZ4J81bl9Y3PkCnakfbN7u1hAU&dib_tag=se&keywords=LEATHER+WATER+BOTTLE+belt+pouches+for+men&qid=1713909445&sprefix=leather+water+bottle+belt+pouches+for+men%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-42
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZgkIZaasL._AC_SX569_.jpg)
Quote from: MacWa77ace on April 23, 2024, 03:38:37 PMEsstac has these belt/molle plastic clips. They would work on any molle equipment to attach to a 1.75 or 2 in belts.
They might be too big for 1 or 1.5 street belts.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-4z9lxo7ou8/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/140/399/26fc5f_1f1d0c39c0834a22828e408b95bf8c7fmv2_d_5184_3456_s_4_2__69152.1594355957.jpg?c=1)
there are hard plastic molle clips, they might work better to keep stuff 'tighter' on the street belts.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shoplightspeed.com%2Fshops%2F629496%2Ffiles%2F15954466%2F1600x2048x2%2Fg-code-g-code-r1-molle-clips-pair.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=10b2e1ad2dc750ed197ee94092aac1ab5eb00aef73b1ec5721fc4a5b7e26b61a&ipo=images)
Thanks! I actually have some of those Esstac clips somewhere that I had forgot about. I could give them a try with some of the pouches I already own instead of buying stuff.
Quote from: flybynight on April 23, 2024, 05:04:17 PMI don't see anything in leather. What about something like this ?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZgkIZaasL._AC_SX569_.jpg)
I think something like that could work well, although I would have to add shoulder straps to it as belt-only fanny packs do not stay up on me.
I actually want to make a post about getting something along the lines of a Maxpedition Versipack/Gearslinger (or a Chinese knockoff for testing purposes). I might want something like that for use in the woods, and I'm pretty sure I want one as my general-purpose emergency bag for things like house fires and earthquakes.
One thing about the fanny pack/Versipack size of bags is that they often max out at about a Glock 17 size of handgun. My woods gun for the last few years has been a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag and I just got a folding pistol brace for my Glock 40 to test out. I need to get measurements for my Glock in the brace but it's probably going to be about 15" I'm guessing.
Maxpedition is actually having a BOGO sale right now but I figure I need to actually test the brace and the concept of such a bag with a cheaper alternative before I drop that kind of money, even at sale prices.
Maybe I'm weak the art of search-fu, but if this is your second line gear what is your first line gear and how does it ties in with the second line?
Quote from: eugenenine on April 23, 2024, 07:03:13 PMMaybe I'm weak the art of search-fu, but if this is your second line gear what is your first line gear and how does it ties in with the second line?
You're not wrong, it's pretty off-topic on my part. Sorry.
Quote from: eugenenine on April 23, 2024, 07:03:13 PMMaybe I'm weak the art of search-fu, but if this is your second line gear what is your first line gear and how does it ties in with the second line?
First line is your EDC CCW and/or any folder or other on body defensive and safety equipment.
Quote from: Optimist on April 23, 2024, 06:10:28 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on April 23, 2024, 03:38:37 PMEsstac has these belt/molle plastic clips. They would work on any molle equipment to attach to a 1.75 or 2 in belts.
They might be too big for 1 or 1.5 street belts.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-4z9lxo7ou8/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/140/399/26fc5f_1f1d0c39c0834a22828e408b95bf8c7fmv2_d_5184_3456_s_4_2__69152.1594355957.jpg?c=1)
there are hard plastic molle clips, they might work better to keep stuff 'tighter' on the street belts.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shoplightspeed.com%2Fshops%2F629496%2Ffiles%2F15954466%2F1600x2048x2%2Fg-code-g-code-r1-molle-clips-pair.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=10b2e1ad2dc750ed197ee94092aac1ab5eb00aef73b1ec5721fc4a5b7e26b61a&ipo=images)
Thanks! I actually have some of those Esstac clips somewhere that I had forgot about. I could give them a try with some of the pouches I already own instead of buying stuff.
Quote from: flybynight on April 23, 2024, 05:04:17 PMI don't see anything in leather. What about something like this ?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZgkIZaasL._AC_SX569_.jpg)
I think something like that could work well, although I would have to add shoulder straps to it as belt-only fanny packs do not stay up on me.
I actually want to make a post about getting something along the lines of a Maxpedition Versipack/Gearslinger (or a Chinese knockoff for testing purposes). I might want something like that for use in the woods, and I'm pretty sure I want one as my general-purpose emergency bag for things like house fires and earthquakes.
One thing about the fanny pack/Versipack size of bags is that they often max out at about a Glock 17 size of handgun. My woods gun for the last few years has been a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag and I just got a folding pistol brace for my Glock 40 to test out. I need to get measurements for my Glock in the brace but it's probably going to be about 15" I'm guessing.
Maxpedition is actually having a BOGO sale right now but I figure I need to actually test the brace and the concept of such a bag with a cheaper alternative before I drop that kind of money, even at sale prices.
Quote from: Optimist on April 23, 2024, 07:42:26 PMQuote from: eugenenine on April 23, 2024, 07:03:13 PMMaybe I'm weak the art of search-fu, but if this is your second line gear what is your first line gear and how does it ties in with the second line?
You're not wrong, it's pretty off-topic on my part. Sorry.
Sorry, guess I should have quoted the OP. I was just wondering what his other lines of gear looked like and how they fit together as a whole
Quote from: eugenenine on April 30, 2024, 09:03:54 AMQuote from: Optimist on April 23, 2024, 07:42:26 PMQuote from: eugenenine on April 23, 2024, 07:03:13 PMMaybe I'm weak the art of search-fu, but if this is your second line gear what is your first line gear and how does it ties in with the second line?
You're not wrong, it's pretty off-topic on my part. Sorry.
Sorry, guess I should have quoted the OP. I was just wondering what his other lines of gear looked like and how they fit together as a whole
First line is what you grab for immediate use in the event you need to defend yourself. And/or gets you to your second line. First line is usually onbody EDC or offbody but carried daily for immediate use. Self defense or home defense.
I remember a WWYD topic on the old ZS, about, IIRC, "what do you have right next to you right now to defend yourself?" There were some funny responses, like a stapler, or a chair. But its all first line.
Other Examples:
Night stand pistol gets you to your gun safe.
EDC CCW gets you to your trunk gun.
Backpack or soft body armor possibly if worn EDC.
2nd line takes time to equip, and may not even be immediately available to you. It can be stored in your car or your house or office. And is not usually worn continually, unless there is some sort of extreme event, or you're doing some kind of training with it. So generally you switch from one to the other or you can intermix if it makes sense and you don't have useless redundancies.
This is my current EDC firstline. It weighs less than 3 lbs.
Surefire
Walther
Zero Tolerance
(https://i.imgur.com/u9o1M5l.jpg)
This is my second line gear and it weighs 60 lbs +. >> https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=222.msg17268#msg17268
Level 4 ceramic plate official tap and torque test video.
Do level 4 ceramic plates expire. (https://www.apexarmorsolutions.com/post/armor-mythbusters-do-ceramic-plates-expire) << This is good to know info regarding the lifespan of Lvl IV ceramic plates.
This is annoying. I'm looking into getting some Esstac mag pouches for my new plate carrier and a setup of 2+1 pouch for a belt setup during the Florida Guns & Gear sales tax holiday.
I have a 'large' lightweight plate carrier with 11x14 plates and I'm able to put a placard with 4 pouches on the front of it.
(https://i.imgur.com/nv6FKPG.jpg?1)
I recently got this new one, with 10x12 plates, but it looks like I won't be able to mount 4 mag pouches directly on it, which is what i was hoping for. It looks like I'm going to have to rig a 4 pouch placard to the front. Then a single mag pouch on each side for a total of 6. Or just mount 3 pouches to the front. That would be 1 lb less than having 4 pouches.
(https://i.imgur.com/Bfj6ror.jpg)
I got the 10x12's because I wanted a lighter setup for reasons. They are 8.5lbs each plate and the carrier is spec'd at 3.6 lbs. [unconfirmed via actual measurement] 2(8.5)+3.6= 20.6lbs and my 11x14 setup is 11lbs each plate and 0.3 lbs for the carrier [it's a really good light weight carrier with laser cut molle]. = 22.3 lbs.
Testudo Gen II
Weight
3.6 lbs
Dimensions
15.5 × 12.5 × 3 in
Apparently didn't reduce the weight much. :smiley_shrug: Only 1.7 lbs. And now I'll have to add a placard.
Anyhow, still saving up for Florida's sales tax free guns and gear holiday, and will probably buy ammo from Ammunition Depot which is Florida based but It'd be nice to get this stuff tax free too.
Measure twice, cut once...
I've been looking at this Esstac 4 mag pouch molle setup in Multi-cam, but it won't properly mount directly on the new rig. I've been trying to figure out how to get 4 upfront.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-4z9lxo7ou8/images/stencil/300x300/products/153/414/26fc5f_cf288de036ac478c8f036307a96d36ccmv2_d_1392_1260_s_2__58272.1595449208.jpg?c=1)
Change of direction,
This Esstac QUAD Daeodon Front Panel 5.56 Tall KYWI Pouch will work. I can't afford it right now but I did order some metal 'G' buckles to attach it to the front of the plate carrier. It's main attachment is hook velcro on the back, the buckles are just insurance I guess. This will give me my 4 up front, and then there will be a single on each of the sides, and a 2+1 gap a the belt. Plus a 5 rnd shotgun card.
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-4z9lxo7ou8/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/166/428/26fc5f_f95040ccaae94d688b12caeee2463b71__99457.1595459885.jpg?c=1)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41DXVVJ1vsL._AC_SX466_.jpg)
The G buckles were $7 on Amazon. These are lower profile than the polymer buckles.
But I have to call Esstac because I'd like to make sure those male plastic buckles that come on Daeodon are removable and not sewn on. The G buckles will sit much lower profile and would be preferred, but I can always just get some more of the female buckles in tan they offer. [I already have a few in black but they won't go with the multi-cam. It's not a deal breaker but my way seems better.
1" Female ITW QASM Buckle (Set of Two) $4.50
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-4z9lxo7ou8/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/254/528/ITW_QASM_Female_Coyote__65762.1603925301.jpg?c=1)
FETA/Rant: Why the frick do manufacturers permanently sew on those plastic buckles. I'm dealing with a broken buckle on a backpack right now. It's one of those smallish ones that connects the shoulder straps across your chest. The male one broke. Both male and female are sewn on. I want to swap them with those plastic buckles you see on paracord bracelets as they are the right size, what a pain.
Quote from: Optimist on April 23, 2024, 01:52:46 PMSlightly off-topic but I've been looking for belt pouches that fit regular old pants belts and everything I find seems to be MOLLE/PALS. I'm glad that stuff is so readily available, but I'm looking for a few pouches that will fit my leather belt (double layer heavy leather with a kydex stiffener, so it's a bit more than a regular belt).
Most of the products I find online say they also work with pants belts but in the pictures they just run the belt through the MOLLE straps. In my experience this makes for a super loose and floppy pouch that's incredibly annoying. Maybe there's some trick I'm missing?
Hiking/jogging stuff all seems to have moved to water bladders or tiny bottles you hold in your hand while running. I tried looking for "duty" pouches on LAPG but they were mostly focused on tiny stuff like handcuffs and pepper spray.
I've been wanting to replace carrying a daypack when out on short hikes with belt pouches. A water bottle pouch or two, FAK, holster, knife and possibles/GP pouch. I've been thinking about maybe spending the money on one of the two layer inner-outer belt systems that seem possible these days but was thinking it would be cheaper to test out how I like it with my existing heavy leather belt first. Maybe I need to buy some knockoff Chinese inner-outer belt system for testing and then upgrade to a more durable one if I decide I like it?
Edit: I also have a preference for more outdoorsy looking pouches and less tactical looking pouches. I never seem to run into anyone out in the woods but I seem to frequently run into tourists while getting ready to go out and I'm self-conscious about feeling like a chunky mall ninja.
ANOTHER great thread. WRT this question, I have upgraded all of my Kydex holsters to have something like this:
(https://warriorland.net/cdn/shop/products/5_700x.jpg?v=1723616379)
Very fast to hook on and they almost magically clip around the bottom of my belt and have a very secure grip.
Not sure if it will work but thought I'd suggest it.