The 2022 shutdown of G3 service - end of many car features

[Blast]

"The truth is a large number of new cars made in the last decade, even some in the 2021 model year, were built with their connected services running on 3G. That includes things like in-nav traffic and location data, WiFi hotspots, emergency call services, remote lock/unlock functions, smartphone app connectivity, voice assistants, and even concierge services. With few exceptions, most of those features in most of those cars will no longer work by the end of 2022 when AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile all pull the plug."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/how-the-3g-shutdown-in-2022-could-screw-your-car/ar-AARF1Ri

I checked the list produced by Toyota. Many of the cellular services of my 2017 4Runner will go away and they have no plans to update them to 5G service. Links to lists of vehicles affected in the article.
-Blast

[mzmc]

Sidenote:

This applies to Europe as well. T-Mobile is going to shut off UMTS (3G) by the end of 2021, Telefónica is going to follow suit by 2022.

GSM (2G) will remain active, as it's the lowest common denominator for SMS and emergency calls.

[NT2C]

Tmobile has plug-in 4g updates available.  They use the OBDII port on your vehicle and they work fine.  We just got one sent to us for our Jeep.  You will have to pay a service fee for the 4G service but the unit itself will be free if you sign up for a year.  Talk to the customer support folks for the services you're trying to keep running, they'll get you hooked up.

[NapalmMan67]

I guess there's something to be said for driving "dumb" vehicles like I do.  No built in navigations, no pay radios, no voice assistants, no remote starts and manual locks.


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[EBuff75]

My Mazda has GPS, but it's DVD-based, not live.  My Suburban has OnStar, but it's an old analog system which hasn't worked in many years.  Heck, it needed an upgraded module back in 2005 to remain active, if my Google-fu is correct! 

I am sort of curious if this might affect either of my parents' vehicles, as they're both newer, all-the-bells-and-whistles models (one Chrysler, one Nissan).  I might send the link to my father as a heads-up.

[Raptor]

That is very interesting.

What is amazing is how many car brands have 2019 and 2020 models in the listings. Clearly the car companies use the same system (or at least the core system) for as long as possible. I guess the engineering cost to up grade is expensive.

I would note that these over air services are getting more and more common and many features like remote start are actually becoming subscription features requiring a monthly fee.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-remote-start-into-a-subscription-service

From a personal perspective, I prefer as little tech in my cars as possible. I made that call decades ago when GPS were first available as options in cars. The car GPS was a POS and could not be upgraded with new maps. So new subdivisions and other key data was omitted.  A simple stand alone mapping GPS for $99 beat the expensive factory installed $$$$$ GPS.

However the increasing incorporation of tech into vehicles is inevitable. Tech has a life span and it simply adds to the vehicle obsolescence. Which BTW is a key selling point for manufacturers to use more tech.

My current car is not affected ... yet ... for the above reason.

[mzmc]

I will say about my car what I said about smart home devices and voice assistants:

I am all over that SciFi shit, and I want all the features. As long as they are running locally, on a computer I actually own, and ideally with open source software.

We're slowly getting there. Most of this can be done in a non-dystopian way. Rooted android auto is an option. As are many other after-market solutions. It's not as convenient, and usually requires time to set up, and the will to actually work with the technology, but we're getting there.

And yeah, the Toyota thing is ridicioulous. I would understand a subscription-based system if it was a service that was actually running on Toyotas servers (like Tesla does, for remotely checking charge status, or adjusting AC from the other side of town). But it isn't, those keys operate on the damn ISM band. What the hell? 

[NT2C]

That is very interesting.

What is amazing is how many car brands have 2019 and 2020 models in the listings. Clearly the car companies use the same system (or at least the core system) for as long as possible. I guess the engineering cost to up grade is expensive.

I would note that these over air services are getting more and more common and many features like remote start are actually becoming subscription features requiring a monthly fee.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-remote-start-into-a-subscription-service

From a personal perspective, I prefer as little tech in my cars as possible. I made that call decades ago when GPS were first available as options in cars. The car GPS was a POS and could not be upgraded with new maps. So new subdivisions and other key was omitted.  A simple stand alone mapping GPS for $99 beat the expensive factory installed $$$$$ GPS.

However the increasing incorporation of tech into vehicles is inevitable. Tech has a life span and it simply adds to the vehicle obsolescence. Which BTW is a key selling point for manufacturers to use more tech.

My current car is not affected ... yet ... for the above reason.

I have one of those "interesting" backgrounds with a lot of professional-level experience in a lot of different areas.  Three of those areas are computers, electronics, and auto repair.  IMHO, the automotive industry lags the electronics industry by 10-15 years, depending on the specific tech.  This here is just one glaring example.  Hell, my 2017 Jeep has a USB A port for a flash drive to work with the sound system, and also an SD card slot for the same purpose.  The USB won't work with anything over 16GB and the SD card slot (full sized slot) is limited to 32GB.  So far as I know, those limits bumped up to 32GB and 64GB respectively starting with the 2020 models.  That's simply pitiful.

[NT2C]

It gets worse:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc

[Raptor]

IMHO, the automotive industry lags the electronics industry by 10-15 years, depending on the specific tech.  This here is just one glaring example.  Hell, my 2017 Jeep has a USB A port for a flash drive to work with the sound system, and also an SD card slot for the same purpose.  The USB won't work with anything over 16GB and the SD card slot (full sized slot) is limited to 32GB.  So far as I know, those limits bumped up to 32GB and 64GB respectively starting with the 2020 models.  That's simply pitiful.

In fairness to car companies it does take 3 to 5 years to go from design to the first model and that model may not change a lot from year to year. That may explain a 5 year lag in tech and may explain why there is no USB C port but not why it is not at least a USB B port. A USB A port is IMO simply the cost accountants expressing their $0.01 to keep costs down.

Also, resources are directed to tech like federally mandated backup cameras and the latest requirement...prevent drunk driving?! (i guess locking up drunk drivers is not logical and 100% of drivers have to pay for anti-drunk driving tech)
https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2021-11-09/congress-mandates-new-car-technology-to-stop-drunken-driving

While I am not a fan of Teslas for my driving needs but you can look at the tech that they incorporate to see how far behind  many of the mainstream car companies are in car tech.

[RoneKiln]

What is amazing is how many car brands have 2019 and 2020 models in the listings. Clearly the car companies use the same system (or at least the core system) for as long as possible. I guess the engineering cost to up grade is expensive.

I wonder if it just never occurred to anyone to ask. They may not have even needed to do any engineering if the electronic parts are somewhat standard in those types of devices (I have no idea). A phone call to the supplier asking about part x to work on 4g instead of 3g and a quick tweak to a contract might have covered it. The housing obviously need to be engineered to fit and mount in a certain space. But the internals might be fairly plug and play.

I run into this sort of thing in my job all the time. If the client had just told us of something upfront we could have done it at the exact same price. But it didn't occur to anyone till late in the project and suddenly we're backtracking and reworking things.

[Lambykins]

I'm a *boomer*.
This is outrageous! Especially the youtube video posted.....you have to PAY a subscription for the key fob to start your car? To heat the seats you already paid for?
Currently carless, but the next vehicle I get is going to be an older model...no fancy stuff, maybe a radio.

[NT2C]

I'm a *boomer*.
This is outrageous! Especially the youtube video posted.....you have to PAY a subscription for the key fob to start your car? To heat the seats you already paid for?
Currently carless, but the next vehicle I get is going to be an older model...no fancy stuff, maybe a radio.

Move to Virginia.  I have a nice pickup truck looking for someone to drive him more than monthly.

[mzmc]

Yes, it is outrageous. And again, I would understand a subscription model, if it was a "do something via our servers from the other side of town".

But these key fobs operate on the ISM band. They are just remotes. So, in essence, Toyota doesn't just cancel a Service they provide (which would be fine), no, the disable a feature on a product you own, without any security or compliance reason to do so.

May I point out that this is the exact behavior Apple was fined € 25 Million for in France?

[Raptor]

This type of "denial of service" is becoming common with a lot of equipment.

For instance a client purchased a very large (200hp) air compressor. It is internet enabled to keep track of hours & maintenance performed. The data resides on the client's server and sends it to the manufacturer. If service is not performed at their schedule as evidenced by buying the components from them (i.e. everything from a tube of grease, a gasket, etc.) the system shuts down until the manufacturer re-enables the device. The manufacturer will only re-enable the device if the components are purchased or the client agrees to void the very generous 5 year "Intake to Exhaust" warranty. Of course the manufacturer's components are 2x the ordinary price for basically the same stuff. For instance they stick their decal on a 5 gallon Pail of Mobil synthetic hydraulic fluid or a tube of Mobil grease and charge 2x the retail price.

The model of selling equipment to use with a service is a very profitable model. Think about cell phones and computer software. In Toyota's eyes the key fob is no different from a cell phone (not defending them just saying).

It will be up to the consumer to send a strong "I will not pay for that service" message.

Now from a purely personal perspective a remote start function has no value to me since I live in a hot climate. So the "NO! I am not paying for that!" message is not hard for me...but YMMV.

That and they may "bundle" that service with other features that I may want and add that fee to the "service".

[NapalmMan67]

It gets worse:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc 

I'll agree that's a bunch of BS if they do that. 

But! this guy sitting in the video is wearing a ($30+) shirt advertising a vendor, that imo has high pricing on what they sell- and has shelves full of collectibles around...  Then talks about companies trying to figure out more ways to get your money and boost profits.  Now that's amusing.


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[Raptor]

I'll agree that's a bunch of BS if they do that. 

But! this guy sitting in the video is wearing a ($30+) shirt advertising a vendor, that imo has high pricing on what they sell- and has shelves full of collectibles around...  Then talks about companies trying to figure out more ways to get your money and boost profits.  Now that's amusing.

I watch this channel on occasions. He clearly shills his services as an attorney (look at the things in the background) on his channel. Yes do treat him like any source on the internet (such as me)... with great care and your own due diligence.

That said he is knowledgeable about car lemon laws and auto sales law at least in Michigan.  Lemon law litigation is his raison d'etre.

He chases ambulances but only litigate the poor build quality of the ambulance.