Not much information on this one yet but the flight path seems telling.


Citation Jet Crashes In Virginia After Supersonic Intercept By F-16s (Updated) (msn.com)

I have been to that area where the plane went down many times as well.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/04/us/southwest-virginia-aircraft-crash/index.html

No explanation for cause of crash but it appears sad.

 "Barbara Rumpel is the president of the company. When reached by phone Sunday, her husband, John Rumpel, told CNN Barbara was safe and that they are owners of Encore. They did not want to comment further to CNN. On her Facebook profile, Barbara commented on an unrelated post of others asking if she was on the plane and sending prayers, writing, "My family is gone, my daughter and granddaughter."

John Rumpel told the Washington Post his family members, including his daughter, a grandchild and her nanny, were on board. He told The New York Times the family was returning home to East Hampton, New York, after a four-day trip to his home in North Carolina, and added his granddaughter is 2 years old."

Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 04, 2023, 09:14:40 PMNot much information on this one yet but the flight path seems telling.


Citation Jet Crashes In Virginia After Supersonic Intercept By F-16s (Updated) (msn.com)

I have been to that area where the plane went down many times as well.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/04/us/southwest-virginia-aircraft-crash/index.html

No explanation for cause of crash but it appears sad.

 "Barbara Rumpel is the president of the company. When reached by phone Sunday, her husband, John Rumpel, told CNN Barbara was safe and that they are owners of Encore. They did not want to comment further to CNN. On her Facebook profile, Barbara commented on an unrelated post of others asking if she was on the plane and sending prayers, writing, "My family is gone, my daughter and granddaughter."

John Rumpel told the Washington Post his family members, including his daughter, a grandchild and her nanny, were on board. He told The New York Times the family was returning home to East Hampton, New York, after a four-day trip to his home in North Carolina, and added his granddaughter is 2 years old."

A good friend of mine lives out by Weyers Cave.  I'll have to contact him and ask about it.  To me, this sounds like a classic case of hypoxia disabling the pilots and the plane flying either on the automatic pilot or just very well-trimmed before coming down out of fuel.

Another alternative is that, since the Citation V is single-pilot rated, it may well have been a single pilot who experienced a medical emergency and then expired, with the passengers trying to operate the aircraft and not knowing how.

Of the two scenarios, I really, really hope it was the first one.

They were flying at a pretty high altitude if it was an unpressurized private jet.  They may have all suffered hypoxia and just went to sleep.  Have you seen any mention about whether the airport at Long Island attempted to make contact with the jet before it turned around?  It looks like it made it to their airspace, but I didn't see mention of communications there. 

Quote from: NT2C on June 04, 2023, 10:27:19 PM

Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 04, 2023, 09:14:40 PMNot much information on this one yet but the flight path seems telling.


Citation Jet Crashes In Virginia After Supersonic Intercept By F-16s (Updated) (msn.com)

I have been to that area where the plane went down many times as well.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/04/us/southwest-virginia-aircraft-crash/index.html

No explanation for cause of crash but it appears sad.

 "Barbara Rumpel is the president of the company. When reached by phone Sunday, her husband, John Rumpel, told CNN Barbara was safe and that they are owners of Encore. They did not want to comment further to CNN. On her Facebook profile, Barbara commented on an unrelated post of others asking if she was on the plane and sending prayers, writing, "My family is gone, my daughter and granddaughter."

John Rumpel told the Washington Post his family members, including his daughter, a grandchild and her nanny, were on board. He told The New York Times the family was returning home to East Hampton, New York, after a four-day trip to his home in North Carolina, and added his granddaughter is 2 years old."

A good friend of mine lives out by Weyers Cave.  I'll have to contact him and ask about it.  To me, this sounds like a classic case of hypoxia disabling the pilots and the plane flying either on the automatic pilot or just very well-trimmed before coming down out of fuel.

Another alternative is that, since the Citation V is single-pilot rated, it may well have been a single pilot who experienced a medical emergency and then expired, with the passengers trying to operate the aircraft and not knowing how.

Of the two scenarios, I really, really hope it was the first one.

I would think the mother at least would have responded to the radio chatter had she been able to even if she couldn't pilot the craft.  I suspect they were all out.  At least, I hope they just peacefully went to sleep.

Quote from: Anianna on June 04, 2023, 10:49:56 PMI would think the mother at least would have responded to the radio chatter had she been able to even if she couldn't pilot the craft.  I suspect they were all out.  At least, I hope they just peacefully went to sleep.

That's assuming she heard it.  Anyone aboard the aircraft with no knowledge of flying would be seriously hard-pressed to figure out what button is the PTT for the radio, or even that there is such a button. Then there's the issue of radio frequency.  We have to assume at least one radio was tuned to Guard and the main to the last ATC frequency before whatever happened happened.  That may have been Washington Center, or it may have been Kennedy (I worked on those 5 towers back in the 80s), but whatever it was it may not have been the frequency they were calling the aircraft on.  For that matter, would a passenger unfamiliar with aircraft comms even know that they were being called?  Aircraft callsigns aren't always obvious.  British Airways, for instance, uses the callsign "Speedbird", US Airways uses "Cactus", and Republic uses "Brickyard".

Straight on and then straight down. Willing to bet everybody was asleep. The mom was also the daughter of the owner, she may not have been a pilot but she probably knew something about planes. 

Family has to be devastated, I will say a prayer for them today.

If they lost pressure anywhere above 20k feet they all died of hypoxia.  Sudden depressurization gives you 30 sec of useful consciousness then out.  

Quote from: Anianna on June 04, 2023, 10:47:42 PMThey were flying at a pretty high altitude if it was an unpressurized private jet.  They may have all suffered hypoxia and just went to sleep.  Have you seen any mention about whether the airport at Long Island attempted to make contact with the jet before it turned around?  It looks like it made it to their airspace, but I didn't see mention of communications there. 

I believe the Cessna Citation is pressurized. But a lost of cabin pressure at altitude would disable the occupants very quickly. That's why they always say in those airline safety talks to put your own mask on first before helping others. 

Agree with NT2C that it would be a blessing if the occupants weren't conscious when the plane went down.

Based upon the news reports there were 4 people on board and the aircraft was being flown by a single pilot. The aircraft owner is also a pilot and most likely flies with a pilot (that is typical for owner/pilots). It is not unusual in such cases to have a pool of pilots who would fly the plane of a contract basis. This type of jet is considered a very docile and relatively easy to manage aircraft for a single pilot. That said anything involving aviation is very unforgiving of any kind of error.  

QuotePublic aviation records said the plane that crashed was registered to Encore Motors of Melbourne, a Florida-based company. Reached by phone, John Rumpel said he was the owner of Encore. Asked whether the plane that crashed was owned by Encore, he said: "To the best of my knowledge." Rumpel said his "entire family" was on board, including his daughter, a grandchild and her nanny. "We know nothing about the crash," he said. "We are talking to the FAA now. ... I've got to keep the line clear."

The poor owner & wife lost their entire family. 

The aircraft was intercepted by 2 F-16 and they could not contact the pilot and used "flares" (likely anti-missile flares) to try and get the pilot's attention. 

QuoteThe jets used flares to try to get the Cessna pilot's attention, NORAD said.

This may be like the Payne Stewart Learjet crash. 

That said the weird thing is that the plane flew to Long Island, NY then did a 180 degree turn without landing and then flew back towards it's departure point. 

QuoteA Cessna Citation aircraft, a business jet, departed from Elizabethton, Tenn., and was bound for Long Island MacArthur Airport in New York, the FAA said. But instead of landing, the plane turned around over Long Island and flew a straight path over D.C.

An aircraft in flight would have filed a flight plan and received approval. However all along the route the plane should have been talking to various controllers and ATC entities. Now this is busy airspace and as long as the plane was on a pre-approved flight plan any failure to communicate may have been ignored. But still there should be audio recordings of the communications. ATC folks are trained to recognize hypoxia symptoms in pilots. That said if they are busy some times you cannot get a word in edgewise and the ATC folks may have been grateful for a plane that did not need anything. 

It likely crashed when it ran out of fuel. Since it did not land at LI it did not have enough fuel to return. 

 

BTW when this aircraft is operated by a single pilot there are several pieces of gear to be both legal and safe. One piece of kit is a quick donning oxygen mask for the pilot. Also pilots regularly train on cabin pressurization issues and there are several instruments to keep an eye on cabin pressurization there is also a master alarm and a stand alone alarm for high cabin pressure. It is typically triggered when the internal cabin pressure that exceeds 12,000 feet. It is possible that the sensor failed. Also in this model you do have to switch on the cabin pressurization (to the normal position). It is part of the post takeoff check list to check the cabin pressure gauge (green dial to the top left) as you are climbing out to make sure the cabin pressure is functioning within normal parameters.

An in-op cabin pressure function is a no go function for anything except a ferry flight below 12,000 feet to a R&M facility.

I suspect in this case that there was an issue in flight after reaching altitude.

Hypoxia makes you feel happy and drowsy. It is gradual, especially if the problem occurred in flight at altitude. It may have gone unnoticed.

A normal IFR flight in a modern aircraft like this one is almost always managed by the autopilot. The flight route and approved altitude are normally entered into the flight director so the plane would have climbed normally flown the route as approved with the pilot simply supervising the flight. The cabin air pressure instruments are by your right knee and not on the panel but they are clearly visible. Sounds boring and it can be but the pilot should be scanning the entire instrument panel during the time frame.

The 180 degree turn seems weird though. Perhaps he punched in return to Elizibethtown, TN to end the waypoint entry string? The airport where he was heading had an ILS and I would have thought he would have the ILS intercept waypoint as the end of the string. The fact that the plane stayed at altitude though means he did not punch in any descent points so who knows...not me.     
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Also this plane was likely well equipted with modern avionics. These newer avionics are incredible useful BUT they require an entire training course in their operation. The days of a stand alone avionics are rapidly going away. If you think of a brand new cell phone with an unfamiliar operating system which requires you to go three screens into the system and scroll through several drop menus to get to where you want to go all while going 400 mph That is why there are 8+ hours of training frequently required to use these systems safely.

That said if you ever are in an aircraft and are forced to communicate with the ground if you can find the radio frequency knob, tune into 121.5. It is not unusual for planes to have at least 2 transceivers and have this frequency  tuned in on one of the transceivers like this. BTW this panel indicates the plane has 3 VHF transceivers and 2 HF transceivers and the green light over VHF 2 means that is the one you will use that if you grab the mic and hit the PTT switch. If the pilot is wearing a headset (& normally this is always the case) you will want that head set to hear the radio. The audio system normally mutes all but the headsets.
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BTW if you ever want to see a pair of F-16s  in flight and a ride from the airport; it is easy to call them. Look for the transponder It will have a 4 digit code in this case it has 1200 which is the code for VFR flights.
If you enter 7500 and press the button labeled "IDENT" the f-16s will be on your wingtip shortly and you will be met by some feds when you land to give you a ride, since it signals a plane jack and since 9/11 that is what happens. BTW if this is done accidently or for any reason other than a real issue you will get a ($100,000 +/-) bill from the feds for the fuel after the ride to their office for any aircraft launched to deal with the issue. 

A better thing to do is enter 7700 which is a distress code and communicate on the radio.

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The registration for the plane looks like it was only recently transferred to the current owner in 2023. Not sure.
https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N611VG

DISCLAIMER: I am not rated on a jet of any kind, have not flown as PIC in years, and this information is simply offered to provide insight and does not constitute advice of anything except my personal opinion.

Do pilots routinely lock the cockpit door on private/chartered flights? If not, the passengers could have entered at any time and if they were conscious, they had plenty of time to do so.

Speaking of time, they should have realized something was wrong as they were well overdue their landing time.  (Who's heard "are we there yet?")  Even if the cockpit door was locked, the F-16 pilots would have been able to see in the passenger windows and noticed if people were moving around (and panicked).  I've personal experience with this.

My guess (and hope) is that everyone was out with hypoxia and slipped gently away.  

Quote from: Z.O.R.G. on June 05, 2023, 08:47:18 PMDo pilots routinely lock the cockpit door on private/chartered flights? If not, the passengers could have entered at any time and if they were conscious, they had plenty of time to do so.

Speaking of time, they should have realized something was wrong as they were well overdue their landing time.  (Who's heard "are we there yet?")  Even if the cockpit door was locked, the F-16 pilots would have been able to see in the passenger windows and noticed if people were moving around (and panicked).  I've personal experience with this.

My guess (and hope) is that everyone was out with hypoxia and slipped gently away. 

Generally smaller aircraft (non airline size ) have only a curtain or some times (like a Beechcraft 400) pocket doors.  so the pilots can fly without light from the cabin disturbing them at night. During the day the curtain is open so the pilot(s) can ask passengers to fasten seat belts etc. On smaller planes the co-pilot also passes out snacks & drinks. But normally the pilot will simply point to the ice chest and snack drawer before taxiing and say help yourself.

Obviously in the big buck world of G- 650/700/800 and BBJ the stewardesses serve the passengers and the flight crew is not allowed past the crew bathroom and rest area. 

I suspect that if it was hypoxia no one would have noticed. This Citation model can have drop down oxygen masks like an airline but I would guess it was not so equiped. If it did it would have alerted everyone on board when they auto deployed.

Subsequent news articles indicate that the pressurization issue occurred shortly after departure. The ATC system noticed the lack of check in's enroute which is a no-no but not unusual.  

Quote from: Raptor on June 06, 2023, 12:19:10 PMSubsequent news articles indicate that the pressurization issue occurred shortly after departure. The ATC system noticed the lack of check in's enroute which is a no-no but not unusual. 

I guess the plane just turned around on it's own to go after the next way point when the pilot never took over to land, and flew right back to where they came from.  That is pretty creepy in "There Will Come Soft Rains" sort of way. They flew dead to Long Island and the plane turned around and flew them back until they ran out of fuel and crashed.

Quote from: Raptor on June 06, 2023, 12:19:10 PMSubsequent news articles indicate that the pressurization issue occurred shortly after departure. The ATC system noticed the lack of check in's enroute which is a no-no but not unusual. 

I'm seeing now that they are reporting that he stopped responding during ascent.  I wonder if the tragedy started with the pilot experiencing a medical issue and ascended higher than he intended. 

Quote from: Anianna on June 06, 2023, 08:29:29 PM

Quote from: Raptor on June 06, 2023, 12:19:10 PMSubsequent news articles indicate that the pressurization issue occurred shortly after departure. The ATC system noticed the lack of check in's enroute which is a no-no but not unusual. 

I'm seeing now that they are reporting that he stopped responding during ascent.  I wonder if the tragedy started with the pilot experiencing a medical issue and ascended higher than he intended. 

Those jets are rated to altitudes as high or higher as commercial airliners.  Don't let the Cessna name fool you into thinking this is some little piston-engined plane.  This one had a service ceiling of 45,000 feet. A 737-500 is only rated to 37,000.  Even an A320neo is only rated to 41,000. 

Most likely there was an unnoticed issue with the bleed air (they literally bleed air from an engine's compressor stage) or the pressure source was incorrectly selected.

Quote from: NT2C on June 06, 2023, 09:33:30 PM

Quote from: Anianna on June 06, 2023, 08:29:29 PM

Quote from: Raptor on June 06, 2023, 12:19:10 PMSubsequent news articles indicate that the pressurization issue occurred shortly after departure. The ATC system noticed the lack of check in's enroute which is a no-no but not unusual. 

I'm seeing now that they are reporting that he stopped responding during ascent.  I wonder if the tragedy started with the pilot experiencing a medical issue and ascended higher than he intended. 

Those jets are rated to altitudes as high or higher as commercial airliners.  Don't let the Cessna name fool you into thinking this is some little piston-engined plane.  This one had a service ceiling of 45,000 feet. A 737-500 is only rated to 37,000.  Even an A320neo is only rated to 41,000. 

Most likely there was an unnoticed issue with the bleed air (they literally bleed air from an engine's compressor stage) or the pressure source was incorrectly selected.

I get that they're rated for that high, but if he hadn't pressurized the plane, he may have intended to level out at a lower altitude.  My thought was that there was no need if they weren't expecting to fly that high.  Alternatively, perhaps he did intend to go that high but lost capability or consciousness before the point he needed to pressurize (that gets done once in the air above a certain altitude, right?).

Quote from: Anianna on June 06, 2023, 09:50:22 PM

Quote from: NT2C on June 06, 2023, 09:33:30 PM

Quote from: Anianna on June 06, 2023, 08:29:29 PM

Quote from: Raptor on June 06, 2023, 12:19:10 PMSubsequent news articles indicate that the pressurization issue occurred shortly after departure. The ATC system noticed the lack of check in's enroute which is a no-no but not unusual. 

I'm seeing now that they are reporting that he stopped responding during ascent.  I wonder if the tragedy started with the pilot experiencing a medical issue and ascended higher than he intended. 

Those jets are rated to altitudes as high or higher as commercial airliners.  Don't let the Cessna name fool you into thinking this is some little piston-engined plane.  This one had a service ceiling of 45,000 feet. A 737-500 is only rated to 37,000.  Even an A320neo is only rated to 41,000. 

Most likely there was an unnoticed issue with the bleed air (they literally bleed air from an engine's compressor stage) or the pressure source was incorrectly selected.

I get that they're rated for that high, but if he hadn't pressurized the plane, he may have intended to level out at a lower altitude.  My thought was that there was no need if they weren't expecting to fly that high.  Alternatively, perhaps he did intend to go that high but lost capability or consciousness before the point he needed to pressurize (that gets done once in the air above a certain altitude, right?).

ATC would have cleared him to his cruising altitude, as per his flight plan, and these jets don't stay low, they get up high where the air is thinner and above the weather.  Staying low would have seriously cut into his flight range.  Cabin pressurization would have started on the ground.  Note how on the panel Raptor posted it has a setting for "GND" for the pressure source.  That would be the ground cart, a source of pressurized air used to, among other things, spool up the turbines and pressurize the cabin.  It's done on the ground to help eliminate pressure changes that can cause considerable ear pain.

Quote from: Raptor on June 05, 2023, 12:36:38 PMAlso this plane was likely well equipted with modern avionics. These newer avionics are incredible useful BUT they require an entire training course in their operation. The days of a stand alone avionics are rapidly going away. If you think of a brand new cell phone with an unfamiliar operating system which requires you to go three screens into the system and scroll through several drop menus to get to where you want to go all while going 400 mph That is why there are 8+ hours of training frequently required to use these systems safely.

The Citation V is standard with a mostly glass cockpit.  Two screens for the pilot, and optional screens for the copilot.

If you go this link you will see the track log that shows the speed and altitude of the entire flight at least up to the point it runs out of fuel and starts to dive @ 8,000 fpm.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N611VG/history/20230604/1700Z/0A9/KISP/tracklog

The speed and altitude are consistent with an autopilot flying. Note the plane was on an IFR route into congested airspace (DC & NYC) so the pilot would file his preferred route which would be as high as possible. Most airline traffic flies between 33,000 and 38,000 ft. When flying through  these areas the normal thing to do (if possible) is file for 38,000 ft+ to get the most direct routing and avoid being routed all over hell and creation.

The pilot filed for 39,000 feet. Now having said that after an enthusiastic climb, the plane leveled off at 23,000 feet and then resumed the climb to 34,000. If the pressurization control had not been turned on then the warning light would have been illuminated for 5 minutes. He would have been hypoxic at this point but likely still conscious. It never hit 39,000 feet.

What typically happens is that you are granted flight clearance to a waypoint with instructions to stop climbing and call for permission to resume the climb to altitude to avoid traffic at a higher altitude. He likely set the autopilot to level at 23,000 and called for clearance to resume the climb. That is strictly speculation on my part since the newer flight systems can have many way points and altitude points enroute. The pilot would normally program in as many of these points while on the ground in accordance with his received IFR clearance. You do this ahead of time on the ground to manage your workload while in the air.

Now one thing there are multiple redundant warnings devices about cabin pressurization. It looks simple but the ground school training for the Citation rating requires several hours of instruction and study on that simple panel I posted above. If you know how the system works it is a simple panel. If you do not know how it works you can wind like this pilot. That said hypoxia is a bitch it is like getting drunk, you get euphoric (oooh! what a pretty red light!) and sleepy (let me shut off that buzzer and grab a few zzzz's).
BTW a sudden depressurization would likely have left some external damage that the F-16 pilots would have seen.  It is possible the event was sudden but if that happened at 34,000 feet there is still 20 seconds +/- of useful consciousness to put on a quick donning mask.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness

This is a slightly different model Citation but the master warning panel lights are similar to this model. The warning annunciator panel is at the top and center. The two red squares on either side are the "oh shit! there is an engine fire!" warning lights. The ones at the top are critical and as you go down they range from "not good" to "did you mean to do that?" if they are illuminated.

     
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The one I circled is the warning that the cabin altitude pressure is over 10,000ft  and pilots must put on an oxygen mask.

If the cabin pressurization is not set properly this will illuminate while there is still time to put on a quick donning oxygen mask or to push the nose over and descend very rapidly to 10,000 feet. This is in addition to the cabin pressure gauge that the pilot should be monitoring. If the pilot is doing his/her job seeing this light go off should not be a surprise.
There has been ample visual evidence on the gauge. The cabin pressure should be leveling off as the altitude increases.

Editorial follows:
I find it unusual that the plane was being operated by a single pilot when it was flying into some of the most congested and busy airspace in the US. His route takes him through DC, Philadelphia and NYC. This is notoriously a PITA to get through. Now granted there was not planned to stop in those airports but still I would have wanted this flight to be operated with 2 pilots due to airspace issues.

Yes it costs more and scheduling a spare pilot on short notice may be difficult. Yes 2 pilots is not guarantee that the second set of eyes would have noticed the issue. (Payne Stewart's Lear 35 had 2 pilots aboard.) Still when you are spending $2,000 + an hour in fuel in a $1.5+ MM jet why not spend $500 more for a second pilot. Two sets of eyes in a busy traffic corridor beats the hell out one set which are also happen to be busy flying the plane and communicating.

Looking at the flight history the plane did make this trip successfully before so I guess since the weather was good and successful past performances made them decide to go with one pilot. But again even with a second pilot depending upon what occurred there may be another dead person.