Optics Chat

[RonnyRonin]

Another update that no one asked for;

Got to compare a vortex 5x prism to the tiny burris 3x prism. At least inside the store I struggled to say the vortex really magnified any better, but it was obvious the burris had far more FOV and was of course 2/3rd the price. If anyone is looking for a light weight low magnification optic and can't afford an ACOG I think the burris wins handily.

[Mr. E. Monkey]

That's good info!  Even if no one asked for it. 


I would love to see how that new Burris 3x compares to the Primary Arms offerings, as far as the glass goes, anyway.  I thought the Burris has a pretty nice reticule, and I know PA puts a lot of thought into theirs (I just wish they would make some of them a bit bigger), so I think that aspect of it just comes down to personal preference.  The glass, though, would be interesting to compare.

[Rednex]

So yesterday my brother in law showed me something he found. Anyone else heard of these? I'm thinking on a carbine rifle and short range stuff. I have no optics ready pistol's yet.

https://www.seeallopensight.com/ 

[NT2C]

I'm familiar with them and considered them for use on my SAR B6P but still haven't decided.

[Moab]

I spent a normal gut wrenching amount of time researching new optics for a dmr or recce rifle recently. And decided on an LPVO.

Amongst a large group of articles and videos on this subject. I found this pew pew article/review the most helpful. I have no idea how unbiased this guy is. But he consistantly comes across as honest and exhaustive in his use, research and knowledge of weapons and accessories. And always shows examples of his evidence. Like the images and videos of each scopes clarity shown in this article.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-1-6x-scope/

Based on the above I decided on this lpvo.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle

It happens to be his recommendation for best 1x6. But also hits a sweet price point. I don't need a luepold priced optic. Simply based on the cost ratio of my rifle vs the optic I hope to use. And my own abilities with an iron sight. Which are relatively high. I don't see the utility in putting a $1500 optic on a $500 rifle. For example. Not that that is the price point of my rifle. But u get what I'm saying. Lipstick on a pig type thing.

I do have self built rifles in roughly that price range. But that was also from a bygone time. My go to AK for example is probably a $1200 rifle. But when I built it it was maybe $600 in parts. But still. For the 300 meters range I would like to achieve. A $250 optic is enough for me. Especially when considering the review above.

The author competes in 3 gun iirc. And highly endorses this optic. So its actually a type of optic he has alot if experience and interest in. 

Prior to this research I really didn't understand the utility and value of an LPVO. Tactics and equipment change so frequently. I sometimes find it hard to keep up with all the research interests I have even just within prepping.

Thanks to you guys I'm able to find subjects worth spending time on. Hope this helps someone else.

[flybynight]

I spent a normal gut wrenching amount of time researching new optics for a dmr or recce rifle recently. And decided on an LPVO.

Amongst a large group of articles and videos on this subject. I found this pew pew article/review the most helpful. I have no idea how unbiased this guy is. But he consistantly comes across as honest and exhaustive in his use, research and knowledge of weapons and accessories. And always shows examples of his evidence. Like the images and videos of each scopes clarity shown in this article.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-1-6x-scope/

Based on the above I decided on this lpvo.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle

It happens to be his recommendation for best 1x6. But also hits a sweet price point. I don't need a luepold priced optic. Simply based on the cost ratio of my rifle vs the optic I hope to use. And my own abilities with an iron sight. Which are relatively high. I don't see the utility in putting a $1500 optic on a $500 rifle. For example. Not that that is the price point of my rifle. But u get what I'm saying. Lipstick on a pig type thing.

I do have self built rifles in roughly that price range. But that was also from a bygone time. My go to AK for example is probably a $1200 rifle. But when I built it it was maybe $600 in parts. But still. For the 300 meters range I would like to achieve. A $250 optic is enough for me. Especially when considering the review above.

The author competes in 3 gun iirc. And highly endorses this optic. So its actually a type of optic he has alot if experience and interest in.

Prior to this research I really didn't understand the utility and value of an LPVO. Tactics and equipment change so frequently. I sometimes find it hard to keep up with all the research interests I have even just within prepping.

Thanks to you guys I'm able to find subjects worth spending time on. Hope this helps someone else.

Welcome back 

[Moab]

I spent a normal gut wrenching amount of time researching new optics for a dmr or recce rifle recently. And decided on an LPVO.

Amongst a large group of articles and videos on this subject. I found this pew pew article/review the most helpful. I have no idea how unbiased this guy is. But he consistantly comes across as honest and exhaustive in his use, research and knowledge of weapons and accessories. And always shows examples of his evidence. Like the images and videos of each scopes clarity shown in this article.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-1-6x-scope/

Based on the above I decided on this lpvo.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle

It happens to be his recommendation for best 1x6. But also hits a sweet price point. I don't need a luepold priced optic. Simply based on the cost ratio of my rifle vs the optic I hope to use. And my own abilities with an iron sight. Which are relatively high. I don't see the utility in putting a $1500 optic on a $500 rifle. For example. Not that that is the price point of my rifle. But u get what I'm saying. Lipstick on a pig type thing.

I do have self built rifles in roughly that price range. But that was also from a bygone time. My go to AK for example is probably a $1200 rifle. But when I built it it was maybe $600 in parts. But still. For the 300 meters range I would like to achieve. A $250 optic is enough for me. Especially when considering the review above.

The author competes in 3 gun iirc. And highly endorses this optic. So its actually a type of optic he has alot if experience and interest in.

Prior to this research I really didn't understand the utility and value of an LPVO. Tactics and equipment change so frequently. I sometimes find it hard to keep up with all the research interests I have even just within prepping.

Thanks to you guys I'm able to find subjects worth spending time on. Hope this helps someone else.

Welcome back 

Thank you. 🌝

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

I'll echo what Flybynight said and say welcome back, Moab.

I've considered getting an LPVO for my AR, but mine is mostly set up for HD purposes and shorter range than an LPVO would be good for.

However, my next AR might have one on it since I'd like to go hog hunting at some point. It also wouldn't hurt to have an extra AR that could be used for targets at longer ranges than what I'm currently used to.

[Moab]

I'll echo what Flybynight said and say welcome back, Moab.

I've considered getting an LPVO for my AR, but mine is mostly set up for HD purposes and shorter range than an LPVO would be good for.

However, my next AR might have one on it since I'd like to go hog hunting at some point. It also wouldn't hurt to have an extra AR that could be used for targets at longer ranges than what I'm currently used to.

I've seen guys with quick release mounts for their LPVOs on their ARs. I do not know what sighting issues you'd have when replacing it back on. But that might kill two birds with one stone. So you could leave it off until you were forced to leave your home defense situation. Meaning you'd only need one AR. 

But who I am to tell a guy NOT to buy another gun?!!! Lmao. I certainly don't tell myself that. Lol.

There's a guy on youtube called Bear who recently posted a great video on tactical rifle ownership. He's been around youtube and the firearms industry for awhile. His arsenal has included several ARs, several AKs and at least a few bolt actions. Like a different rifle for every possible situation. His recent final analysis was that you really only need one rifle. A dmr or recce rifle if you will. Basically an AR in 5.56 with an LPVO and a sling. He goes into much greater detail. But he makes an interesting argument. I'll post it up in another thread. 

[MacWa77ace]

I'll echo what Flybynight said and say welcome back, Moab.

I've considered getting an LPVO for my AR, but mine is mostly set up for HD purposes and shorter range than an LPVO would be good for.

However, my next AR might have one on it since I'd like to go hog hunting at some point. It also wouldn't hurt to have an extra AR that could be used for targets at longer ranges than what I'm currently used to.

I've seen guys with quick release mounts for their LPVOs on their ARs. I do not know what sighting issues you'd have when replacing it back on. But that might kill two birds with one stone. So you could leave it off until you were forced to leave your home defense situation. Meaning you'd only need one AR.

But who I am to tell a guy NOT to buy another gun?!!! Lmao. I certainly don't tell myself that. Lol.

There's a guy on youtube called Bear who recently posted a great video on tactical rifle ownership. He's been around youtube and the firearms industry for awhile. His arsenal has included several ARs, several AKs and at least a few bolt actions. Like a different rifle for every possible situation. His recent final analysis was that you really only need one rifle. A dmr or recce rifle if you will. Basically an AR in 5.56 with an LPVO and a sling. He goes into much greater detail. But he makes an interesting argument. I'll post it up in another thread.

The mark of a quality QD optics mount is that taking if off an putting it back on you return to Zero. Only buy quality QD optics mounts or it defeats the purpose. They do work. But the mark of a quality optic is that it, itself can hold zero. A quality mount on a crappy optic and you won't be able to tell if its the mount or the optic.

My personal $$ ratio is the optic should cost at least as much as the rifle. I'm in the same boat building a recce rifle right now. And while I have a 1x Prismatic that I will put on it initially, the goal is a LPVO AND with an RMR offset site. But this build is going to be a really expensive build. So to follow my own rules the optic would be in the range of Trijicon or better. Clear glass and super accuracy melded between rifle and optics. But I won't be able to afford that right away, and since I've been known to buy budget optics to 'try out' to make sure they are optimal and useable, I was looking at the 1-8x24mm Primary Arms Raptor ACSS LPVO https://www.primaryarms.com/slx-first-focal-plane-1-8x24mm-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle . PA had and have SAVE12 12% code sales pretty frequently so make sure you wait for one of those to be active before you pull the trigger.

For perspective I'm ~$1500 in and only have a barrel, muzzle device, charging handle, forward assist, fire selector, mag release, upper, lower, and handguard.

Looks like this is going to be a slow build because most of what I want to put on this is b/o'd and of course the funding. It took nine months beforethe 'builders kit' was even available to order and then three months and a week before it shipped. So I'm probably going to be putting some existing parts on it and then change them out to what I want later.

[Optimist]

The Sig Buckmaster 1500 laser rangefinder I ordered came in. Was worried they had either sent me a dead battery or the whole unit was DOA, but then I realized I was a dummy and there was a thin clear plastic wrap over the battery.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

The Sig Buckmaster 1500 laser rangefinder I ordered came in. Was worried they had either sent me a dead battery or the whole unit was DOA, but then I realized I was a dummy and there was a thin clear plastic wrap over the battery.

I've done that. Not with a rangefinder, but with a flashlight.

[Optimist]

The Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.

[Moab]

The Sig Buckmaster 1500 laser rangefinder I ordered came in. Was worried they had either sent me a dead battery or the whole unit was DOA, but then I realized I was a dummy and there was a thin clear plastic wrap over the battery.

Last year I bought new wiper blades for my jeep. They were really high tech. With this flourescent green edge. I put them on. And in the first rain they worked like shit.  I was so pissed off. They just sloshed water from side to side. Barely getting the window clear. Later that day I took them off to return them. I was complaining to my son about how big a oiece of shit they were. On the second wiper blade I pulled a little hard. And the flourescent green edge slid a little.

The flourescent green edge was a plastic wiper edge protector. It slipped right off. Best wiper blades I've ever owned. Lmao. What a dumbass!

I've done the same with batteries too. With the little plastic strip sticking out. Lol. 

[Moab]

The Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.

Its like an all in one unit?

I saw a super cheap thermal unit that connects to your phone. Assumed it was a pos. Care to give us an update on current night vision and thermal? Before I spend 5 hours going down the rabbit hole?

[Optimist]

The Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.

Its like an all in one unit?

It's not both night vision and thermal in one unit, you can get either one or the other. There are devices that are all-in-one night vision and thermal and they actually use a computer to combine both together, which is really cool but they crazy expensive and have atrocious battery life. I'm also guessing that they aren't even available to civilians but I'm not sure.

The cool thing about these Holosun units is that they are either night vision or thermal and they are also just a regular AEMS red dot. You can turn the NV/thermal off to save batteries and flip down the red dot lense cover and it works just like a regular red dot. Flip the cover back up and turn the NV/thermal sensor on and you get the digital display with the red dot overlaid on top of it.

They haven't given us much other details, like how waterproof it is, what resolution it is, warranty, etc. There also haven't been reviews, which I would want to see before buying one.

I also have a little bit of trepidation about buying a Chinese NV or thermal optic, in the sense that I might be contributing in a fairly direct way to the R&D of such devices for the CCP's armed forces.

I saw a super cheap thermal unit that connects to your phone. Assumed it was a pos. Care to give us an update on current night vision and thermal? Before I spend 5 hours going down the rabbit hole?

I spent some time researching digital night vision and thermal about six months ago. I am not all that knowledgeable and have never actually used either, but I could give you my layman's understanding. Things have also been changing very rapidly in the digital night vision and thermal world, so I might already be out of date.

When it comes to night vision, I've mostly been looking at digital, which to my understanding is essentially just a digital camera optimized to working at night. The traditional night vision used by the military works in a different way and is much more expensive but also better.

Digital NV has a refresh rate that causes a slight delay, which can work on a hunting scope or if you're trying to do static observation but it's supposed to be much harder to use digital NV to walk around with. Most of what I've read is if you want night vision to help you get around at night you really should skip digital and save up to get traditional night vision

Battery life for digital night vision sucks. It's measured in hours, not days or years like other optics. Traditional night vision has much better battery life. One good thing is that is that newish models of digital night vision Scopes usually have a USB-C port that allows use of external battery banks. I emailed a vendor to ask about how robust these ports are, as I was worried that if the cable gets knocked around to much the plug might break the port. They emailed me back and said the USB-C ones are fairly sturdy, but one trick that is commonly used is a magnetic attachment for the USB cable so if it gets bumped or caught it will pop off without damaging the device.

Digital night vision is far more reliant on having additional IR illumination than Gen III traditional night vision. This is somewhat dependent on price, and you can get digital NV that can work about as good as traditional third generation night vision without additional illumination but at that point traditional night vision is actually cheaper and has a whole host of other advantages. If you're hunting having an IR flashlight turned on is no big deal, but if you're worried about bad guys who also have night vision it can give away your position just as badly as shining a regular flashlight around. On the other hand, you can use low-end digital NV as an IR detector to see if someone else with night vision is sneaking up on your place at night, or you could have motion sensor IR lights on your perimeter to detect people and animals moving around.

I suspect that digital night vision just isn't as robust as traditional night vision and certainly not as much as regular rifle Scopes and red dots. For example, I'm looking at getting a Pulsar Digex C50, which isn't cheap ($1500), comes from a well-regarded European manufacturer, has good water proof and shock proof ratings and is supposed to be able to work in subzero temperatures. Even with all that, the thing only has a one year warranty, which makes me think that something relying so much on electronics runs a higher chance of dying early unlike a regular rifle scope which can last just about indefinitely.

While I've mentioned a lot of the downsides there are a few advantages to digital night vision.

You don't have to worry about bright or constant lights damaging them like with traditional night vision (although a lot of modern traditional night vision will have an "auto-gating" feature to help prevent that).

Most have memory card slots and an options to record photos and videos. You can also hook up a long USB cable from them to a computer or tablet to remotely view through the scope. Some can even do this wirelessly and can connect to your cell phone.

Many can save multiple zeros, and can select multiple reticles. So you could for instance save a 55 grain zero and use it with a duplex crosshair and also have a 7+ grain zero saved and use it with a mil-dot crosshair. If you have a detachable mount that reliably returns to zero you could even swap the optic between multiple rifles.

There is a cool picture-in-picture mode that is pretty common where for example you might have most of the screen at 2x magnification but a smaller window is at 6x, both of them with crosshairs, so you can switch back and forth between higher magnification and better field of view just by glancing up or down without having to move your head or fiddle with controls.

Price is the biggest advantage. If you're mostly looking for something that works as a scope mounted to a rifle or a handheld monocular then decent digital night vision can be had for under $1000 (but you need an illuminator to see any distance). A PVS-14 with mount usually costs about $3000 IIRC (of course a PVS-14 is better in many ways).

When it comes to thermal everything is digital, so most everything I wrote about digital night vision (battery hog, able to record video, not as robust, etc.) also applies the thermal. There is no "traditional" thermal though, it's all digital.

A lot of military thermal is relatively robust and very high resolution, but it also costs as much as a car.

Hunting thermal optics can be had for a lot less money, and how much you need to spend depends on what kind of detail you need to see at what range. There are relatively cheap sub-$1000 thermal optics, and with them you might be able to the difference between a possum and a cat at fifteen yards, but at fifty yards you're only going to see blobs. That can still be useful if, for instance, you have a handheld thermal monocular you use to occasionally scan and then if you see an interesting blob you can use a night vision optic or a white light to try to identify it.

My understanding, which largely comes from The Late Night Vision Show, is that if you want a thermal optic for hunting where you want to be able to actually tell what type of animal you're looking at out to a couple hundred yards (as opposed to just being pretty sure it's a quadruped and not a biped) then you're probably looking at $3000 or more. Of course The Late Night Vision Show is put on by a night vision retailer (not a manufacturer of any one brand) so they want to sell us things, but they seem pretty honest in their reviews in that they will say when manufacturers are being overly-optimistic in identification ranges. I think with that show the one thing you have to read between the lines with is that they want need to maintain a good business relationship with optics manufacturers so if there is a bad product they just don't publish a review for it (they've said as much in some episodes).

Because most digital devices can record video, if there is a model you're interested in you can usually find through-the-scope hunting footage of it on YouTube. With thermal scopes you have to be mindful of what range the recorded video is showing. Many but not all reviewers will say. Judging distance through thermal optics is supposed to be a challenge and many higher-end ones are now coming with integrated laser rangefinders.

Most of what I've been researching is digital NV and thermal optics for hunting. One thing about that is most of the demand and development for that had been focused on hunting feral hogs in the Southeast US. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to check temperature ratings because many of these things aren't rated for anything colder than 20*F.

Again, things have been changing. The prices keep dropping and better quality ones keep coming out. On one hand if you wait something better for the same price is probably just ~2 years out, but I. The other hand with that attitude you might wait forever.

The way I figure it for myself is that the price of digital night vision scopes has gotten low enough for decent ones that they can be worth getting as long as their limitations are kept in mind. I plan to get one of those for a pest control rifle first. I'm going to wait a few years on thermal because I think that technology is less mature than digital NV and there is more room for it to rapidly improve. In a few years if I can't get something for $1000 that is as good as the $3000 optics available right now then I'll probably get an inexpensive handheld thermal monocular and wait a few years more.

My understanding is that traditional night vision is pretty mature and it's expensive because it's just dang expensive to produce. So if you bought a PVS-14 now then in ten years you'll still probably have something you consider a good investment. If you drop $10,000 on a thermal scope right now in ten years you might be getting something substantially better for under $2k.

Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about I just spent a little time researching it for fun last year.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

My only experience with a thermal or NV optic is a scope that NT2C let me handle when he was in my AO back in 2019.

[Moab]

The Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.

Its like an all in one unit?

It's not both night vision and thermal in one unit, you can get either one or the other. There are devices that are all-in-one night vision and thermal and they actually use a computer to combine both together, which is really cool but they crazy expensive and have atrocious battery life. I'm also guessing that they aren't even available to civilians but I'm not sure.

The cool thing about these Holosun units is that they are either night vision or thermal and they are also just a regular AEMS red dot. You can turn the NV/thermal off to save batteries and flip down the red dot lense cover and it works just like a regular red dot. Flip the cover back up and turn the NV/thermal sensor on and you get the digital display with the red dot overlaid on top of it.

They haven't given us much other details, like how waterproof it is, what resolution it is, warranty, etc. There also haven't been reviews, which I would want to see before buying one.

I also have a little bit of trepidation about buying a Chinese NV or thermal optic, in the sense that I might be contributing in a fairly direct way to the R&D of such devices for the CCP's armed forces.

I saw a super cheap thermal unit that connects to your phone. Assumed it was a pos. Care to give us an update on current night vision and thermal? Before I spend 5 hours going down the rabbit hole?

I spent some time researching digital night vision and thermal about six months ago. I am not all that knowledgeable and have never actually used either, but I could give you my layman's understanding. Things have also been changing very rapidly in the digital night vision and thermal world, so I might already be out of date.

When it comes to night vision, I've mostly been looking at digital, which to my understanding is essentially just a digital camera optimized to working at night. The traditional night vision used by the military works in a different way and is much more expensive but also better.

Digital NV has a refresh rate that causes a slight delay, which can work on a hunting scope or if you're trying to do static observation but it's supposed to be much harder to use digital NV to walk around with. Most of what I've read is if you want night vision to help you get around at night you really should skip digital and save up to get traditional night vision

Battery life for digital night vision sucks. It's measured in hours, not days or years like other optics. Traditional night vision has much better battery life. One good thing is that is that newish models of digital night vision Scopes usually have a USB-C port that allows use of external battery banks. I emailed a vendor to ask about how robust these ports are, as I was worried that if the cable gets knocked around to much the plug might break the port. They emailed me back and said the USB-C ones are fairly sturdy, but one trick that is commonly used is a magnetic attachment for the USB cable so if it gets bumped or caught it will pop off without damaging the device.

Digital night vision is far more reliant on having additional IR illumination than Gen III traditional night vision. This is somewhat dependent on price, and you can get digital NV that can work about as good as traditional third generation night vision without additional illumination but at that point traditional night vision is actually cheaper and has a whole host of other advantages. If you're hunting having an IR flashlight turned on is no big deal, but if you're worried about bad guys who also have night vision it can give away your position just as badly as shining a regular flashlight around. On the other hand, you can use low-end digital NV as an IR detector to see if someone else with night vision is sneaking up on your place at night, or you could have motion sensor IR lights on your perimeter to detect people and animals moving around.

I suspect that digital night vision just isn't as robust as traditional night vision and certainly not as much as regular rifle Scopes and red dots. For example, I'm looking at getting a Pulsar Digex C50, which isn't cheap ($1500), comes from a well-regarded European manufacturer, has good water proof and shock proof ratings and is supposed to be able to work in subzero temperatures. Even with all that, the thing only has a one year warranty, which makes me think that something relying so much on electronics runs a higher chance of dying early unlike a regular rifle scope which can last just about indefinitely.

While I've mentioned a lot of the downsides there are a few advantages to digital night vision.

You don't have to worry about bright or constant lights damaging them like with traditional night vision (although a lot of modern traditional night vision will have an "auto-gating" feature to help prevent that).

Most have memory card slots and an options to record photos and videos. You can also hook up a long USB cable from them to a computer or tablet to remotely view through the scope. Some can even do this wirelessly and can connect to your cell phone.

Many can save multiple zeros, and can select multiple reticles. So you could for instance save a 55 grain zero and use it with a duplex crosshair and also have a 7+ grain zero saved and use it with a mil-dot crosshair. If you have a detachable mount that reliably returns to zero you could even swap the optic between multiple rifles.

There is a cool picture-in-picture mode that is pretty common where for example you might have most of the screen at 2x magnification but a smaller window is at 6x, both of them with crosshairs, so you can switch back and forth between higher magnification and better field of view just by glancing up or down without having to move your head or fiddle with controls.

Price is the biggest advantage. If you're mostly looking for something that works as a scope mounted to a rifle or a handheld monocular then decent digital night vision can be had for under $1000 (but you need an illuminator to see any distance). A PVS-14 with mount usually costs about $3000 IIRC (of course a PVS-14 is better in many ways).

When it comes to thermal everything is digital, so most everything I wrote about digital night vision (battery hog, able to record video, not as robust, etc.) also applies the thermal. There is no "traditional" thermal though, it's all digital.

A lot of military thermal is relatively robust and very high resolution, but it also costs as much as a car.

Hunting thermal optics can be had for a lot less money, and how much you need to spend depends on what kind of detail you need to see at what range. There are relatively cheap sub-$1000 thermal optics, and with them you might be able to the difference between a possum and a cat at fifteen yards, but at fifty yards you're only going to see blobs. That can still be useful if, for instance, you have a handheld thermal monocular you use to occasionally scan and then if you see an interesting blob you can use a night vision optic or a white light to try to identify it.

My understanding, which largely comes from The Late Night Vision Show, is that if you want a thermal optic for hunting where you want to be able to actually tell what type of animal you're looking at out to a couple hundred yards (as opposed to just being pretty sure it's a quadruped and not a biped) then you're probably looking at $3000 or more. Of course The Late Night Vision Show is put on by a night vision retailer (not a manufacturer of any one brand) so they want to sell us things, but they seem pretty honest in their reviews in that they will say when manufacturers are being overly-optimistic in identification ranges. I think with that show the one thing you have to read between the lines with is that they want need to maintain a good business relationship with optics manufacturers so if there is a bad product they just don't publish a review for it (they've said as much in some episodes).

Because most digital devices can record video, if there is a model you're interested in you can usually find through-the-scope hunting footage of it on YouTube. With thermal scopes you have to be mindful of what range the recorded video is showing. Many but not all reviewers will say. Judging distance through thermal optics is supposed to be a challenge and many higher-end ones are now coming with integrated laser rangefinders.

Most of what I've been researching is digital NV and thermal optics for hunting. One thing about that is most of the demand and development for that had been focused on hunting feral hogs in the Southeast US. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to check temperature ratings because many of these things aren't rated for anything colder than 20*F.

Again, things have been changing. The prices keep dropping and better quality ones keep coming out. On one hand if you wait something better for the same price is probably just ~2 years out, but I. The other hand with that attitude you might wait forever.

The way I figure it for myself is that the price of digital night vision scopes has gotten low enough for decent ones that they can be worth getting as long as their limitations are kept in mind. I plan to get one of those for a pest control rifle first. I'm going to wait a few years on thermal because I think that technology is less mature than digital NV and there is more room for it to rapidly improve. In a few years if I can't get something for $1000 that is as good as the $3000 optics available right now then I'll probably get an inexpensive handheld thermal monocular and wait a few years more.

My understanding is that traditional night vision is pretty mature and it's expensive because it's just dang expensive to produce. So if you bought a PVS-14 now then in ten years you'll still probably have something you consider a good investment. If you drop $10,000 on a thermal scope right now in ten years you might be getting something substantially better for under $2k.

Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about I just spent a little time researching it for fun last year.

Thank you so much. That saved me a weeks worth of time researching this. SO what is your intended use? Which animals are you targeting? What ranges? That NV from EU is the one your getting? What are you attaching it too? Does caliber matter like in LVPO's?

[Optimist]

A few things I forgot to mention:

Most all digital night vision and thermal are fixed power and the zoom is digital, so as you zoom in the picture gets grainier and grainier. That means even if a manufacturer says their optic with a 2x magnification can zoom up to 32x, it's probably only actually useful to zoom in to maybe 10x.

A lot of the optics have a focus ring/knob that is supposed to be very helpful for getting a clear picture. Some low end ones don't come with this feature.(I think so e of the high-end ones have computer-aided focusing, but I don't remember and I didn't spend much time researching stuff way out of my price range.)

Field of view is generally worse than is normal for traditional rifle scopes.

IR flashlights often glow with a soft red light. Most hunters don't seem to have a problem spooking game, but it might give you away if you're trying to be sneaky.

There are "clip-on" units that mate up with the front of a regular rifle scope, so you can take the night vision or thermal device off during the day and put it on at night. Most hunters that do reviews on YouTube seemed to dislike these but I don't remember why and I never looked much into it.

Thank you so much. That saved me a weeks worth of time researching this. SO what is your intended use? Which animals are you targeting? What ranges? That NV from EU is the one your getting? What are you attaching it too? Does caliber matter like in LVPO's?

The optic I have been looking at is the Pulsar Digex C50, and I'm planning on putting it on a bolt-action Savage in .223.


The main reason I started looking at this particular optic is that it is rated to work at -13F. Where I live most of the time it's dark is in the winter, and the clear nights when hunting would be best are the coldest. I think I'm terms of night vision performance a cheaper scope would work for me, but this is the only one that is supposed to work at subzero temperatures which aren't rare where I live.

The reason why I started looking at night vision is that I raise livestock and we have a predator problem. I've been losing on average about a dozen birds a year, which adds up to a decent chunk of money. Canines are the biggest culprits (fox, coyote and one particularly destructive stray dog). Coyotes were so scarce when I was a kid that I didn't even know they lived in this state until I was a teenager. Over the last maybe ten years their population has gone way up.

The place my birds are at is surrounded. Y a hay field. I'm mostly looking at 200-300 yards, with the possibility of being right up close when they come in to get my birds and potentially out to 500 yards depending on which direction they run. Mostly what I've shot has been right up close with a shotgun, but the coyotes are so fast that by the time I grab my gun and head out the door they're already halfway across the field. I think this optic can do a few hundred yards but only with additional illumination.

There are a few other good things I like about the Pulsar Digex C50.

It's also a full-color daylight scope, which I like because my Savage rifle is the most accurate rifle I own and it would be a shame to have it be relegated to only night time. The scope also has some sort of enhanced twilight mode that is supposed to be full color and better than your naked I can see in dim light, which is cool because there are hours and hours of twilight here most of the year.

The way the scope is designed it has the lense and sensor in the front, the display in the rear and between them is a narrower tube that holds the internal battery. This means it can fit in regular scope rings. Many digital night vision and thermal Scopes have a shorter and boxier shape, which is fine on ARs but my understanding is that on bolt-actions you sometimes need a reverse-cantilever setup to get the display close enough to your eye.

It's supposed to be very solidly built. It's IPX7 waterproof, works in the cold and is shock resistant enough to mount on .375 H&H* rifles and 12 gauge shotguns. The company has a good reputation.

There are a number of downsides to this optic though.

It's very expensive! And unlike normal expensive rifle scopes I don't think it will hold it's value nearly as well and I'm not sure how long it will keep functioning. At $1500 I sure hope it lasts for many years, but IIRC the warranty is only for one year.

It's heavy and bulky. Not something I would want to pack around for long distances, but that's not how I'm planning to use it.

It uses weird batteries that have to be ordered. It also has the option of using a normal USB external battery bank, which allays my fears somewhat.

As far as digital night vision scopes go I think it would be relatively good at long range (by night vision standards) but not very good at close range.

*As a matter of fact I do have a rifle in .375 H&H, and I've been waffling for years about what kind of optic to put on it. If I get a reliable quick-detach mount I might be able to switch this optic back and forth between my .223 and my .375, and that way I could still run my .375 with irons as a brush gun.

As far as caliber concerns like with LVPOs I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean does it have a BDC reticle specific to a particular cartridge then most I have seen don't. Many have changeable reticles in the menu options (the C50 I'm looking at has ten options but I'm not sure what they all are). You might need to look at what recoil the optics are rated for, as some might only be intended for intermediate cartridges.

[Moab]

A few things I forgot to mention:

Most all digital night vision and thermal are fixed power and the zoom is digital, so as you zoom in the picture gets grainier and grainier. That means even if a manufacturer says their optic with a 2x magnification can zoom up to 32x, it's probably only actually useful to zoom in to maybe 10x.

A lot of the optics have a focus ring/knob that is supposed to be very helpful for getting a clear picture. Some low end ones don't come with this feature.(I think so e of the high-end ones have computer-aided focusing, but I don't remember and I didn't spend much time researching stuff way out of my price range.)

Field of view is generally worse than is normal for traditional rifle scopes.

IR flashlights often glow with a soft red light. Most hunters don't seem to have a problem spooking game, but it might give you away if you're trying to be sneaky.

There are "clip-on" units that mate up with the front of a regular rifle scope, so you can take the night vision or thermal device off during the day and put it on at night. Most hunters that do reviews on YouTube seemed to dislike these but I don't remember why and I never looked much into it.

Thank you so much. That saved me a weeks worth of time researching this. SO what is your intended use? Which animals are you targeting? What ranges? That NV from EU is the one your getting? What are you attaching it too? Does caliber matter like in LVPO's?

The optic I have been looking at is the Pulsar Digex C50, and I'm planning on putting it on a bolt-action Savage in .223.


The main reason I started looking at this particular optic is that it is rated to work at -13F. Where I live most of the time it's dark is in the winter, and the clear nights when hunting would be best are the coldest. I think I'm terms of night vision performance a cheaper scope would work for me, but this is the only one that is supposed to work at subzero temperatures which aren't rare where I live.

The reason why I started looking at night vision is that I raise livestock and we have a predator problem. I've been losing on average about a dozen birds a year, which adds up to a decent chunk of money. Canines are the biggest culprits (fox, coyote and one particularly destructive stray dog). Coyotes were so scarce when I was a kid that I didn't even know they lived in this state until I was a teenager. Over the last maybe ten years their population has gone way up.

The place my birds are at is surrounded. Y a hay field. I'm mostly looking at 200-300 yards, with the possibility of being right up close when they come in to get my birds and potentially out to 500 yards depending on which direction they run. Mostly what I've shot has been right up close with a shotgun, but the coyotes are so fast that by the time I grab my gun and head out the door they're already halfway across the field. I think this optic can do a few hundred yards but only with additional illumination.

There are a few other good things I like about the Pulsar Digex C50.

It's also a full-color daylight scope, which I like because my Savage rifle is the most accurate rifle I own and it would be a shame to have it be relegated to only night time. The scope also has some sort of enhanced twilight mode that is supposed to be full color and better than your naked I can see in dim light, which is cool because there are hours and hours of twilight here most of the year.

The way the scope is designed it has the lense and sensor in the front, the display in the rear and between them is a narrower tube that holds the internal battery. This means it can fit in regular scope rings. Many digital night vision and thermal Scopes have a shorter and boxier shape, which is fine on ARs but my understanding is that on bolt-actions you sometimes need a reverse-cantilever setup to get the display close enough to your eye.

It's supposed to be very solidly built. It's IPX7 waterproof, works in the cold and is shock resistant enough to mount on .375 H&H* rifles and 12 gauge shotguns. The company has a good reputation.

There are a number of downsides to this optic though.

It's very expensive! And unlike normal expensive rifle scopes I don't think it will hold it's value nearly as well and I'm not sure how long it will keep functioning. At $1500 I sure hope it lasts for many years, but IIRC the warranty is only for one year.

It's heavy and bulky. Not something I would want to pack around for long distances, but that's not how I'm planning to use it.

It uses weird batteries that have to be ordered. It also has the option of using a normal USB external battery bank, which allays my fears somewhat.

As far as digital night vision scopes go I think it would be relatively good at long range (by night vision standards) but not very good at close range.

*As a matter of fact I do have a rifle in .375 H&H, and I've been waffling for years about what kind of optic to put on it. If I get a reliable quick-detach mount I might be able to switch this optic back and forth between my .223 and my .375, and that way I could still run my .375 with irons as a brush gun.

As far as caliber concerns like with LVPOs I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean does it have a BDC reticle specific to a particular cartridge then most I have seen don't. Many have changeable reticles in the menu options (the C50 I'm looking at has ten options but I'm not sure what they all are). You might need to look at what recoil the optics are rated for, as some might only be intended for intermediate cartridges.

"You might need to look at what recoil the optics are rated for, as some might only be intended for intermediate cartridges."

This what I was asking about. Recoil rating.

Sounds like an expensive proposition. But you have the need. 

Thanks so much for the write up! If I could only live one place it would be Alaska.