Trump shot at on stage in PA, hit in ear.

[Moab]

All fire was semi auto. Including LE. Shots that far with a crowd would not be accurate enough with full auto. And not necessary in that situation. Bump stocks are a joke. Not accurate and you can be just as fast if not faster with your finger. But none of those are accurate at except very close distances. They have just been over publicized by the left leaning media who support a gun ban. And over publicized by anti gun entities across the US. They are a joke in the gun community. They do not make an accurate full auto rifle out of a simple semi auto AR15.

Full auto is not legal in the US for citizens. Except for full auto arms that were grandfathered before the law banning sales of full auto decades ago. And those arms are prohibitively expensive. Like $20,000 to $100,000+. 

We will most likely not find much out about the operation itself. Until an investigation has been concluded. Which could be months. The first few shots heard in camera. Can be assumed to be the shooter. But the rapid response volley is most likely LE. SS to be specific. 

Comms is likely. But not much official info has come out about the local LE confronting the shooter on the roof. It could have been a situation where local LE climbed up only to find a man pointing a rifle at them. Or maybe the shooter did not see them at all. But LE decided to let the SS snipers deal with it. Or the SS snipers called them off the roof. As they were blocking their shot. But who knows? We won't know until some official investigation comes out .

Get ready for the theatrics in congress. But what we do know is a shooter was allowed to get way to close to a former president. And shoot him, others in the crowd, and kill another person. That alone is well worth a very serious investigation. To get within 140m of Trump with a rifle is not meant to happen ever. 140m is well within the accurate distance of any common hunting rifle or AR. 

[NT2C]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13634219/Veteran-longest-confirmed-sniper-kill-Trump-assassination-attempt.html

(I was on the old forum years ago, and decided to check out here to see what people were talking about). The dailymail article above shows different counter snipers on a rooftop- some wear different uniforms, have hats with brims, and bipods on their rifles (on top of the fixed tripods on the roof). Makes me wonder if this is a second team? Or earlier in the day on the same building as the guys with caps who took the shot (or the one guy with cap who did whilst the other fell over). Did the rally go on long enough to need two teams?
I like the bellingcat website where they look at stuff like this. After the shooting I was looking at google streetview myself as I've read enough bellingcat to know how to do some stuff.
It's surprising after the Las Vegas shooting (that was at 450m- though downwards) that there's not a dot on the google maps with a radius traced around it.
Listening to the shots it's hard to figure out which are the shooters and which the counter sniper. Did the shooter need to have auto or a bump stock? Or semi auto enough? What are the gun laws in the state?
On another issue- when the local cops got the info there was a potential shooter on the roof, before going up a ladder to look, did they communicate with the counter snipers? One would think it was a good idea, otherwise the aforementioned cop could have got a bullet in the head from the counter sniper.
Or was it like Grenada- where everyone is on a different radio channel? (I think that's correct. The UK had the same problem in the Falklands from memory- but this was the 80's- 40 years ago- was meant to be fixed).

Welcome back to the family, so to speak.  Our rules are pretty much the same but a little relaxed in some areas, like politics.  We recognize that there's no way to discuss something as political as this without brushing against political things.  Fortunately, we have friendly staff members standing by with garment brushes and wet wipes to help clean you up again should that happen.  Our overarching rule is to be respectful and not to fight over stupid shit.  I think you'll fit right in.   

To address your questions, there were at least two counter-sniper teams used at this event and they'll usually be set up and working 30 minutes to an hour prior to any of the public getting into the venue.  There will usually be a supervisor who will spell team members for breaks so they can cool down when in excessive heat such as we've had.  My best friend is such a supervisor.

As for comms. Yeah, even after the interoperability push of the past 20 years they're still a mess.  I've worked comms at events like this and it really is a nightmare of messages getting garbled, repeated incorrectly, or misrouted as they get shifted between incompatible systems (different frequencies that agencies might not have access to, different encryption, etc.) and getting a message from that officer to the sniper teams might have taken 15 minutes or more, and they didn't have 15 minutes.

The problem is simply lack of resources for the Secret Service.  As with any Federal agency, next year's budget is going to depend on what gets done with this year's budget, and where the bean counters think stuff could be cut back, especially as Congress Critters face reelection.  "Well, no one really tried to kill the protectees last year so do we really need all those agents and resources there?"  SOP where Federal budgets are concerned.  Cut shit back until something breaks, the Congress Critters say, "Ooopsie!  Us bad!" and make a big show of wanting to give the agency more "next budget".

(do you get the feeling that my wife and I can't wait to get out of this area?)

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

So I managed to find a semi-clear pic of the would-be assassin and it appears the AR he was armed with had an optic of some sort on it.

It's hard to make out what type it was exactly due to blur and the trees behind him blending in with the possible optic, but to me it looks like a reflex style sight similar to a HoloSun or a Weaver Microdot.

Those are typically non-magnified, which could explain why the shots weren't as accurate as they could've been.

[NT2C]

So I managed to find a semi-clear pic of the would-be assassin and it appears the AR he was armed with had an optic of some sort on it.

It's hard to make out what type it was exactly due to blur and the trees behind him blending in with the possible optic, but to me it looks like a reflex style sight similar to a HoloSun or a Weaver Microdot.

Those are typically non-magnified, which could explain why the shots weren't as accurate as they could've been.

The shots were rush after that cop found him, that's why they were inaccurate.  Any competent shooter should have no issue hitting a grapefruit at that range with open sights.  With a red dot, I'll hit it out to 200-300

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

So I managed to find a semi-clear pic of the would-be assassin and it appears the AR he was armed with had an optic of some sort on it.

It's hard to make out what type it was exactly due to blur and the trees behind him blending in with the possible optic, but to me it looks like a reflex style sight similar to a HoloSun or a Weaver Microdot.

Those are typically non-magnified, which could explain why the shots weren't as accurate as they could've been.

The shots were rush after that cop found him, that's why they were inaccurate.  Any competent shooter should have no issue hitting a grapefruit at that range with open sights.  With a red dot, I'll hit it out to 200-300

Good point.

I retract my previous statement on that.

[MacWa77ace]

One thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.

I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.

My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.

I work in a big government building sharing a campus with a municipal and county courthouse to the NE and a local university immediately across the pavilion to the south. The area polling station is directly downstairs in the council overflow chambers. I DO NOT FEEL SAFE. Dad keeps talking me down saying Police/SWAT is literally up the street and I'm literally in the safest place I could be outside of NORAD. I've had a bleeder kit packed in my work bag for over two years now.

A local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.

https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/

Pretty pathetic reaction.

A bunch of people need walking papers.

When seconds count, I never count on the police being any more than 4-15 minutes away. I work 7 miles from Parkland, and saw how the responders ... waited for backup while kids were dying. Yeah, depend on yourself and be ready with a plan for you're work.  This is a prepper site. Don't be scared, be ready.

Looks to me like the schmuck was using open sights and no optic. Kind of hard to tell due to the trees and the blurriness of the photo when you zoom in.

Also, I can almost say with certainty that this'll probably be the end of any open air campaign rally stops for Trump and probably Biden as well.

Any stops going forward are likely to be indoors with a extremely high level of security. 

At least I'd think they ought to be.

Because you just know there's already another whacko out there that'll try this again just to get their name in the papers and their 15 minutes of fame.

I paused that image on my 65" and got right up to to screen to see if I could see an optic. I thought I saw a holographic. But that's a 1x. Still should be an easy 130m shot. I also thought at first that it was a 300BO suppressed subsonic because the sound of the bullet [not the report of the gun] was 'sic', 'sic', not a supersonic crack, crack. Or possibly a subsonic 22LR, but I've changed my mind. We'll get the details eventually.

Regarding the shooter missing at that close range. It was reported he failed to make the rifle team in 'his freshman year' IDK if that is HS or College. But this was really bad marksmanship. So then I was thinking that he only practiced at an indoor 25yd range if ever. Was the rifle even zero'd? Or, since it was his dad's rifle, that is dad has a 'yip' in his shooting and adjusted his zero to compensate for the yip. Which that wouldn't show up on a 25yd range but at 100yds it could.

The other thing I noticed were the counter sniper teams optics. Those were high magnification, in a short distance scenario, and I think zoomable. IMO the farthest buildings across the main audience field were about 300yds. The ones across the street not the AGR. Those CS optics were 20x or 40x max, I don't know what the min is on those but hopefully 10-12x. You can't use those to provide overwatch in less than 300 yds as their field of view is to narrow.  ~5ft at 100yds  ? If it were me I'd have had LPVO 1-6x, or a fixed 4x or at most a 10x with a wide field of view on a SASR or DMR, not bolt guns. With a 20xz, you have to basically hit your target with a 'point of the rifle' then look thru the optic and hopefully your 'point' was within that 5ft field of view so you can lay your crosshairs on the target. These guys didn't rig their tools for the mission. 

The other thing I'm thinking is the rules of engagement were: Don't fire until VIP is fired upon. But I've also heard that they weren't sure that person wasn't authorized to be there.  AND, that those roofs across the street, and in the AGR complex, were outside of the 'perimeter' that SS was supposed to protect. So were they not looking at them. Why would they be looking at the crowd with those optics, the ONLY thing they needed to look at were the AGR roofs, the 2 buildings roofs across the street, the building to the 11 o'clock of the stage and the water tower. Which BTW, any security strategist would have stood at the podium, scanned all the high ground and said, 'OK, we need a guy, there, there there and there. 4 fricken guys on those roofs.

That shot should have never gotten off.




I think they'll use those bullet proof plexi setups more for outdoor events now. But in this scenario there was a water tower behind the podium, and they only plexi the fonts and sides mostly.

When those SS guys were holding their arms up to provide 'CONCEALMENT' for the president. I was saying to my wife, 'how come they don't have Captain America shields. Or a cloth concealment sail they can deploy to get the VIP out of line of sight?



Finally: I don't know if any of you noticed that there were 4 female SS agents on body detail. All under 5'5". The current director of SS is a proponent of DEI. And the VIP is 6'3"+, so as a human shield they are only protecting the bottom half. Melania thanks you.



No offense, but munchkins should body protect munchkins, giants should protect giants.

I don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.

County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.

Less rivers.

[MacWa77ace]

Listening to the shots it's hard to figure out which are the shooters and which the counter sniper. Did the shooter need to have auto or a bump stock? Or semi auto enough? What are the gun laws in the state?

That was slow semi auto fire. First three shots. Reported that the AR style rifle was legally purchased by shooters father. Whether the shooter could legally possess is still TBD. My bet, he was on anti-psychotics, just came off anti-psychotics, and/or was self medicating.

I can't figure out that last shot though. It was a good 10 seconds after the everything subsided.

As an example of fast semi auto, unassisted [trigger finger only]

I've seen much faster. Indistinguishable from FA.

[NT2C]

Remember, the counter snipers had suppressors.

[MacWa77ace]

Remember, the counter snipers had suppressors.

Yep, accounted for that. And that's why I changed my mind pretty quick.

Suppressors quiet the report, not the sonic boom of the round traveling at super sonic speeds. That's why you need subsonic suppressed for really quiet actions. The suppressor quiets the report, and the subsonic doesn't crack a sonic boom as it travels thru the air. If you use a suppressor with supersonic ammo you still get that really loud 'crack' of the overpressure wave. Subsonic is for short range static targets. Supersonic is for every range and moving targets. But its loud. Except for the fact that the shooter missed, at first I thought it was a pro with the right gear for a 130m shot at at static target, and an escape plan.

Subsonic isn't reliable in 556/223, but is very reliable in 300BO. I went there only for a few minutes. 

All the 'sic' 'sic' 'sic' bullet overpressure waves sounded the same. Some with report, some without. The first shot its really noticeable, because you can hear the 'sic' and then the bang of the report. As would be expected. That's why I came to the conclusion shooter used standard supersonic ammo. It sounded the same as the snipers when it came to the sonic boom. I had just never heard it thru a mic at that angle before. IRL yes. Sounded different to me at first.  

[Moab]

It was brought to my attention that my post above concerning the general impression that police are involved in a high number of bad shootings. Because of a lack of training. May have come across as racial and skirted our common rules of no politics.

I have edited out those comments referring to a video about a Harvard study. That concluded that the police are not actually involved in a number of bad shootings of minorities. And I have removed that video.

My sincere apologies.

But I would like to explain my intentions behind the video and my comments:

Police training seeming to be germaine to the subject of police failures during the Trump assassination attempt. I didn't want anyone to think I was being anti police in regards to their lack of training.

I was trying to be clear that lack of training "may" have caused the failures during the Trump assignation attempt. But that police shootings of minorities had nothing to do with that ascertain. As the data or media that tries to uphold that overwheling, very public view - is incorrect.

I felt that if I didn't include those lectures and study information. People would assume I was also referring to a lack of training being the cause of those perceived, rampant police failures.

The video I chose concerning the Harvard study was not my best choice either. The ones that detail his findings are quite lengthy. I posted the short one just to cite as the source of my comments. And to make it easy to watch. And it did appear to be mainly about the backlash he received. Rather than the studies outcome. Which was basically that police shooting of minorities are not rampantly biased or prejudiced. Which the media would lead you to believe.

Some one else had already countered that police training was better from their anecdotal evidence. Than I had posted. 

And it appeared as if my comments might be taken as an indictment of the police. Which they were not meant to be. I just didn't want anyone thinking I was conflating the lack of training for police officers in the failures during the Trump assassination attempt with the overwhelming public perception that police are involved in bad shootings daily - because of that same lack of training.

I understand this falls within a no politics policy. Which is why I strayed away from any opinion. And tried to only post factual videos that cited government and/or academic studies.

My apologies. I have edited the post. And removed the video. Please let me know if there is anything else skirting the line that may need to be taken down as well.

I support law enforcement. I think they need much more support than they get. Including better training. There is no evidence that lack of training was the cause of the failures during the assignation attempt. Just speculation.

But I do think it's unfair that we expect LEOs from a small local county to jump into SS roles. Which they are obviously not trained for. Who knows what happened on that rooftop. And I do not know what the solution is. Maybe a state level unit that already exists? That receives additional training specific to helping out SS whenever they arrive in their state? I don't know.

[Moab]

One thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.

I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.

My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.

I work in a big government building sharing a campus with a municipal and county courthouse to the NE and a local university immediately across the pavilion to the south. The area polling station is directly downstairs in the council overflow chambers. I DO NOT FEEL SAFE. Dad keeps talking me down saying Police/SWAT is literally up the street and I'm literally in the safest place I could be outside of NORAD. I've had a bleeder kit packed in my work bag for over two years now.

A local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.

https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/

Pretty pathetic reaction.

A bunch of people need walking papers.

When seconds count, I never count on the police being any more than 4-15 minutes away. I work 7 miles from Parkland, and saw how the responders ... waited for backup while kids were dying. Yeah, depend on yourself and be ready with a plan for you're work.  This is a prepper site. Don't be scared, be ready.

Looks to me like the schmuck was using open sights and no optic. Kind of hard to tell due to the trees and the blurriness of the photo when you zoom in.

Also, I can almost say with certainty that this'll probably be the end of any open air campaign rally stops for Trump and probably Biden as well.

Any stops going forward are likely to be indoors with a extremely high level of security. 

At least I'd think they ought to be.

Because you just know there's already another whacko out there that'll try this again just to get their name in the papers and their 15 minutes of fame.

I paused that image on my 65" and got right up to to screen to see if I could see an optic. I thought I saw a holographic. But that's a 1x. Still should be an easy 130m shot. I also thought at first that it was a 300BO suppressed subsonic because the sound of the bullet [not the report of the gun] was 'sic', 'sic', not a supersonic crack, crack. Or possibly a subsonic 22LR, but I've changed my mind. We'll get the details eventually.

Regarding the shooter missing at that close range. It was reported he failed to make the rifle team in 'his freshman year' IDK if that is HS or College. But this was really bad marksmanship. So then I was thinking that he only practiced at an indoor 25yd range if ever. Was the rifle even zero'd? Or, since it was his dad's rifle, that is dad has a 'yip' in his shooting and adjusted his zero to compensate for the yip. Which that wouldn't show up on a 25yd range but at 100yds it could.

The other thing I noticed were the counter sniper teams optics. Those were high magnification, in a short distance scenario, and I think zoomable. IMO the farthest buildings across the main audience field were about 300yds. The ones across the street not the AGR. Those CS optics were 20x or 40x max, I don't know what the min is on those but hopefully 10-12x. You can't use those to provide overwatch in less than 300 yds as their field of view is to narrow.  ~5ft at 100yds  ? If it were me I'd have had LPVO 1-6x, or a fixed 4x or at most a 10x with a wide field of view on a SASR or DMR, not bolt guns. With a 20xz, you have to basically hit your target with a 'point of the rifle' then look thru the optic and hopefully your 'point' was within that 5ft field of view so you can lay your crosshairs on the target. These guys didn't rig their tools for the mission. 

The other thing I'm thinking is the rules of engagement were: Don't fire until VIP is fired upon. But I've also heard that they weren't sure that person wasn't authorized to be there.  AND, that those roofs across the street, and in the AGR complex, were outside of the 'perimeter' that SS was supposed to protect. So were they not looking at them. Why would they be looking at the crowd with those optics, the ONLY thing they needed to look at were the AGR roofs, the 2 buildings roofs across the street, the building to the 11 o'clock of the stage and the water tower. Which BTW, any security strategist would have stood at the podium, scanned all the high ground and said, 'OK, we need a guy, there, there there and there. 4 fricken guys on those roofs.

That shot should have never gotten off.




I think they'll use those bullet proof plexi setups more for outdoor events now. But in this scenario there was a water tower behind the podium, and they only plexi the fonts and sides mostly.

When those SS guys were holding their arms up to provide 'CONCEALMENT' for the president. I was saying to my wife, 'how come they don't have Captain America shields. Or a cloth concealment sail they can deploy to get the VIP out of line of sight?



Finally: I don't know if any of you noticed that there were 4 female SS agents on body detail. All under 5'5". The current director of SS is a proponent of DEI. And the VIP is 6'3"+, so as a human shield they are only protecting the bottom half. Melania thanks you.



No offense, but munchkins should body protect munchkins, giants should protect giants.

I don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.

County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.

Less rivers.

"Less rivers."

That's a really interesting idea! 

I just watched a documentary about the Scots immigrating to the south. And there lack of interest in infrastructure. Specifically building bridges. Long past the time other areas of the nation had built bridges across most of their waterways. The south had not. Leaving only seasonal ferry crossings or more than likely fording waterways on foot or horseback. When water levels allowed.

Which may have been the cause of so many small counties. Like you say. The many "rivers".

I still find it odd that we have held onto that system of such small counties. They can't possibly have the same resources as the rest of the larger counties in the country. But I guess one could make the ascertain that many of those larger counties also include large swath's of vacant or low population lands. So maybe the resources are the same? Idk.

I only have experience in larger western counties. Where the county sheriff is a rather large, well equipped, well trained entity. Smaller cities within those counties - more the size of a southern county - are much smaller LE agencies, less equipped, and less trained. 

In my hometown LE was volunteer only. With maybe one officer paid from time to time. I think now there is no local LE. And they've contracted with the county sherrif. Who is 45 minutes to an hour away. 

But literally just about anyone could be appointed as a policeman. My grandfather was one in his latter 60s. When I was just a kid. Beyond his combat experience in WWII. He had little to no training in LE. I remember thinking "who the hell thought this was a good idea?!". Lol!

[Red Tamarillo]

Listening to the shots it's hard to figure out which are the shooters and which the counter sniper. Did the shooter need to have auto or a bump stock? Or semi auto enough? What are the gun laws in the state?

That was slow semi auto fire. First three shots. Reported that the AR style rifle was legally purchased by shooters father. Whether the shooter could legally possess is still TBD. My bet, he was on anti-psychotics, just came off anti-psychotics, and/or was self medicating.

I can't figure out that last shot though. It was a good 10 seconds after the everything subsided.

As an example of fast semi auto, unassisted [trigger finger only]

I've seen much faster. Indistinguishable from FA.

Thanks for the link, That was pretty fast.
I'm wondering if the last shot was a "just to be sure the shooter is down shot". Or heat of moment shot going elsewhere.

[Moab]

New video of the shooter on the roof. The building was being used as local PD staging area. One officer did climb roof, shooter pointed gun at him, officer lost his grip and fell back down. Then shooting started.


https://youtu.be/6tReC8aNS0A?si=259QnPyQJC4gWpgr

[Moab]

https://youtu.be/uvBT8oCpWAs?si=HHWGTM4mm_DbAD0s


https://youtu.be/_ukInN0eBsU?si=7umIQ3dq6YuXe4Jw


https://youtu.be/ag17KVRIrQ4?si=5GKpuITlcIDMPhcJ

[Red Tamarillo]

Finally: I don't know if any of you noticed that there were 4 female SS agents on body detail. All under 5'5". The current director of SS is a proponent of DEI. And the VIP is 6'3"+, so as a human shield they are only protecting the bottom half. Melania thanks you.



No offense, but munchkins should body protect munchkins, giants should protect giants.

When I read this I couldn't help thinking of the actor/ress who played Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones. Just a little over 6ft 3" according to wikipedia.

[NT2C]

Well, that didn't take long...

[MacWa77ace]

When I read this I couldn't help thinking of the actor/ress who played Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones. Just a little over 6ft 3" according to wikipedia.

And her character was a body guard..  She was a Commander in the King's Guard. Great analogy. That's what I'm talking about. She killed the Hound! 

[DarkAxel]

Pretty good video, seems to explain a few things and adds more questions. I'll hold my comments on some
of the content, be be warned it gets a bit political:

[Lambykins]

Quick note right now, gotta read more....
Starting to look like the Secret Service is trying to shift all blame to local LEOs.
Gonna go read more...

[aikorob]

I don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.

County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.

Less rivers.
[/quote]
"Less rivers."

That's a really interesting idea!

I just watched a documentary about the Scots immigrating to the south. And there lack of interest in infrastructure. Specifically building bridges. Long past the time other areas of the nation had built bridges across most of their waterways. The south had not. Leaving only seasonal ferry crossings or more than likely fording waterways on foot or horseback. When water levels allowed.

Which may have been the cause of so many small counties. Like you say. The many "rivers".

I still find it odd that we have held onto that system of such small counties. They can't possibly have the same resources as the rest of the larger counties in the country. But I guess one could make the ascertain that many of those larger counties also include large swath's of vacant or low population lands. So maybe the resources are the same? Idk.

I only have experience in larger western counties. Where the county sheriff is a rather large, well equipped, well trained entity. Smaller cities within those counties - more the size of a southern county - are much smaller LE agencies, less equipped, and less trained.

In my hometown LE was volunteer only. With maybe one officer paid from time to time. I think now there is no local LE. And they've contracted with the county sherrif. Who is 45 minutes to an hour away.

But literally just about anyone could be appointed as a policeman. My grandfather was one in his latter 60s. When I was just a kid. Beyond his combat experience in WWII. He had little to no training in LE. I remember thinking "who the hell thought this was a good idea?!". Lol!
[/quote]

supposedly in the GA constitution - that all county seats had to be within a half days ride. That way you could go take care of business and be back home by sundown