Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel

[Uomo Senza Nome]

They reap what they sow.

They created their own tragedy in Black September in 1970. They had a real shot at a homeland and then turned on their Jordanian hosts and tried to overthrow the government and assassinate the king. After they were kicked out of society in Jordan they went to Lebanon and created a civil war that took 100K lives and created a humanitarian crisis that endures to this day.

Nobody wants them because they bring violence wherever they go. The Arabs are happy to let them kill as many Jews as they like but they certainly don't want to live with them.

[Raptor]

A good summary of thier past issues and history

Do not forget the massive corruption of Yaser Arafat. When he died 20+ years ago he had amassed a net worth of about $1.5 billion( back when $1billion was a lot of money).

All derived at the expense of the Palestinians. Either skimmed from aid or grants or other similar dealings.

[Raptor]

https://www.theblaze.com/news/american-killed-israel-hamas-palestinian-supporter

There are several stories about people in similar circumstances.

I guess the we will soon be inundated with information about the fighting in Gaza.

Hamas is actively blocking people from fleeing from the combat zone. 

[flybynight]

When Hamas unleashed its attack on thousands of Jews attending a music festival in southern Israel earlier this month, an Israeli Arab paramedic insisted on staying at the scene to try to save lives.
In the end, he gave his own.


https://apnews.com/article/israel-arab-paramedic-killed-c16a667db45db2ee62bcd993a24d6ee5

[Uomo Senza Nome]

When Hamas unleashed its attack on thousands of Jews attending a music festival in southern Israel earlier this month, an Israeli Arab paramedic insisted on staying at the scene to try to save lives.
In the end, he gave his own.


https://apnews.com/article/israel-arab-paramedic-killed-c16a667db45db2ee62bcd993a24d6ee5

He felt that, as an Arab, he could somehow mediate with the attackers.

Yeah, no, heart is in the right place but he would be near the top pf the target list.

[Uomo Senza Nome]

In Chicago a nutter killed a 6YO and stabbed his mother because they were Palestinian. Attacks on Jews are at their highest level since the 1970s.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/15/slaying-muslim-child-illinois-war-00121649

[majorhavoc]

That mug shot is the scariest thing I hope to see this Halloween season.  A six-year old child, for God's sake.  That was that sociopath's own tenant, and yet was somehow personally responsible for what's happening a half a world away.  

I've said it before - I'm getting this sense that on some fundamental level, society is unravelling.  

[Raptor]

That mug shot is the scariest thing I hope to see this Halloween season.  A six-year old child, for God's sake.  That was that sociopath's own tenant, and yet was somehow personally responsible for what's happening a half a world away. 

I've said it before - I'm getting this sense that on some fundamental level, society is unravelling. 

I cannot add anything to your conclusion about the scumbag in question...or to your last statement about society.

There is a lot of truly deranged and horrific acts lately.

What I do suggest that we all keep our heads on a swivel and be prepared to take care our families & friends. Preparation and prayers are never wasted.

Focus on the tasks and goals...not the storm.

[Uomo Senza Nome]

I've said it before - I'm getting this sense that on some fundamental level, society is unravelling. 

If that were true at least there would be at least something to blame it on. Hate crime is as old as old is old.

[wee drop o bush]

The BBC is reporting that an IDF Air strike has hit a hospital where thousands of Palestinians were sheltering, at least 500 people are thought to have died.
What gets me most about the Israeli/Palestine conflict is that ordinary people just the same as us going about their everyday lives suffer.
The world feels like it's destabilised a little.

[Uomo Senza Nome]

"No refugees in Jordan, no refugees in Egypt," King Abdullah said in Berlin Tuesday, pushing back against pressure from the international community to accept the Palestinian refugees, according to Reuters.
He added: "That is a red line, because I think that is the plan by certain of the usual suspects to try and create de facto issues on the ground."

No surprise here.

Israel's top national security adviser predicted that the U.S. would get involved in Israel's war on Hamas if the conflict escalated to include other regional powers like Hezbollah or Iran.
The official, Tzachi Hanegbi, cited the U.S. movement of two air craft carrier strike groups into the Eastern Mediterranean as a key indicator. Meanwhile, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has emphasized that there are no U.S. boots on the ground and no plans to deploy them.
"[Biden] is making clear to our enemies that if they even imagine taking part in the offensive against the citizens of Israel, there will be American involvement here," Hanegbi said.
President Biden has nevertheless warned Hezbollah and Iran to stay out of the conflict, but he has not made specific threats of what the U.S. will do if they do join the war.

US direct action would be a first.

[MacWa77ace]

President Biden has nevertheless warned Hezbollah and Iran to stay out of the conflict, but he has not made specific threats of what the U.S. will do if they do join the war.

I think the direct quote was || "be careful...    be careful..." ||

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/biden-tells-iran-be-careful-after-hamas-attacks-israel/ar-AA1i45JD

[Raptor]

The BBC is reporting that an IDF Air strike has hit a hospital where thousands of Palestinians were sheltering, at least 500 people are thought to have died.
What gets me most about the Israeli/Palestine conflict is that ordinary people just the same as us going about their everyday lives suffer.
The world feels like it's destabilised a little.

I have not seen the 500 people quoted for that strike.
That said the IDF said they hit 750 "targets" so the casualty a count of 500 is not out the question.
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/israeli-jets-hit-750-military-targets-in-gaza-overnight-QjkF2cFx5HWx6IArSX7z

...and yes it is a bit surreal.


EDITED TO ADD:
A link to an AP article quoting:

The health ministry said at least 500 people had been killed. Photos and video purportedly from al-Ahli Hospital on social media showed fire engulfing the building and the hospital's grounds strewn with torn bodies, many of them young children. Around them in the grass were blankets, school backpacks and other belongings. The images could not immediately be independently verified.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c

[Raptor]

US direct action would be a first.

A first and a very, very bad move for the US. The IDF does not need the help. This is not the Yom Kippur War.

By taking sides like that we would forever lose the little (really minute)  influence we have in events in the Middle East.

[flybynight]

People need to grow a spine. This is war. It's not pretty, there's no glory. Non combatants will get killed. 

The bombing of Dresden was a joint British and American aerial bombing attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, during World War II. In four raids between 13 and 15 February 1945, 772 heavy bombers of the Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city.[2] The bombing and the resulting firestorm destroyed more than 1,600 acres (6.5 km2) of the city centre.[3] Up to 25,000 people were killed.[1][a]

On the night of 9/10 March 1945, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) conducted a devastating firebombing raid on Tokyo, the Japanese capital city. This attack was code-named Operation Meetinghouse by the USAAF and is known as the Great Tokyo Air Raid in Japan.[1] Bombs dropped from 279 Boeing B-29 Superfortress heavy bombers burned out much of eastern Tokyo. More than 90,000 and possibly over 100,000 Japanese people were killed, mostly civilians. 

I don't want to see children and other non combatants killed anymore than anybody else .  But the IDF is not targeting them. Unlike what hamas did.  There comes a point, the kid gloves come off. 

[echo83]

A pretty commonly quoted figure over the past week (and past few years) is that anywhere from 25% to 30% of the rockets fired at Israel are falling short, often landing within the Gaza Strip. 

This, apparently, may have been one of the hundreds of them:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-confirms-gaza-hospital-blast-caused-by-islamic-jihad-rocket-misfire/

I guess that's what happens when you make rockets out of irrigation pipes and fire them randomly towards civilians...from behind dense concentrations of your own civilians. 

I know how callous I must sound, but if 30 percent of the time you get into a bar fight you knock out one of your own friends, you're probably not going to get invited out much.

[majorhavoc]

I'm reserving judgment about who's to blame for the hospital explosion in Gaza.  I've also read about it being an errant Hamas rocket, but I could see it just as easily being a targeting mistake by the Israelis.  We may never get a definitive answer, but I keep coming back to what Flybynight said: in war, innocents will die.  Make no mistake, this is a full-scale war.  

[Raptor]

The Palestinian death count is IMO part of Hamas' plan. The civilian deaths sully the IDF and makes Hamas look like the victim.

It is a cold and brutal calculation on their part. 

[echo83]

The Palestinian death count is IMO part of Hamas' plan. The civilian deaths sully the IDF and makes Hamas look like the victim.

It is a cold and brutal calculation on their part.

Agreed. That death count is an unfortunate advantage Hamas knows they have. 

This is an all-out war, with a strong emphasis on counterinsurgency. 

The triangle counterinsurgency theory states that as a counterinsurgent, you can prioritize any two of the three options. 
But you can't prioritize all three. 

1.) Protect your own forces 
2.) Kill insurgents
3.) Protect innocents in the local population

The insurgent doesn't have to choose between these three options. A successful insurgent relies support of the populace, but if he can blame collateral damage on the counterinsurgent, all the better for him.

[wee drop o bush]

The Palestinian death count is IMO part of Hamas' plan. The civilian deaths sully the IDF and makes Hamas look like the victim.

It is a cold and brutal calculation on their part.

IMHO having and maintaining the moral high ground in a conflict is an advantage, when you lose that you lose ground.