Undead Forums of ZS

EDIT - 7-10-22
Now that I've largely completed the "construction phase" of the packs I'm modifying the first post to reflect some learnings.

1. The ALICE isn't a great pack stock, but once modified? It's completely different  beast. YMMV but for me and my needs it's near perfect.

2. The following are a must:
- replace all metal buckles, snaps, etc with parachute buckles. We'll worth it and will run you about $45 for the seven needed. I used Dritz buckles available at Joanns craft stores.

- MOLLE shoulder straps. Far better than the ALICE ones. Might not look like it but you can get them to attach.

- MOLLE waist/kidney pad. Adjusted right it will take almost all the load of the pack.

- carrying handle. I went with making a paracord one; this has the advantage of extra cordage on the pack with a use rather than just sitting there as it were.

- Flexseal. These packs are (often) older and the barrier in the map case breaks down. Grab a can and really easy to repair. Some people also seal the tops of the three outside pouches, up to you.

- eyelets. Small thing put run some bank line through them and tie off. Easy way to carry stuff.

3. Sleep system
This is the biggest issue IMO. Very little connects perfectly to the bottom. So far a $25 compression sack and the M1967 sleeping bag carrier has worked best.

4. Water
Right now I'm still running with the water bladder in the middle outside pocket and routing the hose to the right shoulder strap. This works well but still looking at the "void space" in the mid to upper back area. I'm hiking several times a week testing it so I'll have some practical time with it.

5. Stitching
Don't be afraid of upping some of the stitching on the straps. An X-acto knife used judiciously will give you enough clearance on getting buckles on. Liquid Stitch or Epoxy resin set for several days works wonders.

Original post:
Title isn't meant to start anything just commentary, nothing more.

For years I kept trying to find an alternative to my medium ALICE pack, but I'm not really sure why. IMO they are the best. I've swapped out all the old metal buckles for plastic quick connect ones, I'm guessing everyone knows about the Hellcat mod, etc, but what about water? The obvious solution is to get some canteens that go with the ALICE clips and attach to the side, but what about a water bladder? I had thought about stitching something in the main bag section, but didn't want to take away space.

I just though of it but what about stashing a water bladder. So without and special modifications I was able to just route the tube through the various loops to the ones I sewed on the left straps and bam, water bladder with tube. (After typing all this out I wonder about rigging up something in the "void space" of the pack and the frame...) EDIT #2- I found placing the bladder in a smallish size dry sack with a cinch top and it fits perfectly.

Downside? It takes up one of the outer pouches. The upside is there is no real modification to it. If one wants to revert it back there is nothing to change and the pouch is ready to go.

Other than dedicating a single outside pouch I really can't think of a downside.

Comments welcome.

I don't have an ALICE pack to play with at the moment, but couldn't it lay flat atop secured with the roll straps?  I feel like there should be enough strap to secure a roll and a full bladder up there, but maybe it would get too loose as the water was consumed. 

Would it work if you have a bladder in a slim backpack like the ones marketed for sports to maybe put the ALICE straps through the backpack straps, instead, so the backpack sits on top and is secured by the straps but the straps won't be affected by the deflation of the bladder?

Quote from: Anianna on March 30, 2022, 11:15:34 PM
I don't have an ALICE pack to play with at the moment, but couldn't it lay flat atop secured with the roll straps?  I feel like there should be enough strap to secure a roll and a full bladder up there, but maybe it would get too loose as the water was consumed.

Your suspicion is correct, enough slack on the loops but would get loose, plus still have to keep it in some sack.

Quote from: Anianna on March 30, 2022, 11:15:34 PM
Would it work if you have a bladder in a slim backpack like the ones marketed for sports to maybe put the ALICE straps through the backpack straps, instead, so the backpack sits on top and is secured by the straps but the straps won't be affected by the deflation of the bladder?

Saw something similar with the large ALICE packs: dude had small sport type pack sit inside the large ALICE. I'm thinking for a medium pack though that's too much space.

What about this, we take a water bladder pouch like this. It has thin shoulder strap so it can be hung on the Alice fram between the frame and the pack.

https://smile.amazon.com/Condor-Hydration-Bladder-Carrier-Black/dp/B0082CW6U0/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2Q7F0SQ9HH0NN&keywords=molle+water+bladder+pouch&qid=1648766800&sprefix=molle+water%2Caps%2C66&sr=8-5

Certainly possible. I've got a small hydration one and I placed it in there. I would fit but adds a another set of straps so not sure I want to go that route. I can sew fairly well so I wonder if I make some straps that attach/support it.

Then of course I keep coming back to my original idea so maybe I'm overthinking it.

I second what has been posted above.  A buddy I backpack with uses an old Alice and used to try to fit the bladder inside it.  He made the change to one that was designed to strap to the outside of the pack and he couldnt be happier.  It returns the lost space back to him, and removal for fillups is a hella lot easier.  Ofttimes he doesn't even need to remove his pack, He'll turn to me and ask me to disconnect his camelback and he'll fill.  Then I'll reattach...  Other benifits are it's removable and has it's own straps so if he's dayhiking or whatever, he can just bring his water with him as opposed to the whole pack

Ok so taking in the feedback I dug out my Coleman Revel 8 that the water bladder goes into and sure enough tucks right into the void space of the frame. Only changes: going to attaché a d-ring from the top to hang it from and get a large enough black or green dry sack to stuff it in; that will keep all the straps out of the way and cover up the fact is blue and yellow... seems simple enough. Added benefit is a water bladder on the lower back area, nice for cushion.

Also, pics. I finished sewing and have heavily reinforced all threads then used the super glue that sorta melts stuff to fuse it further.

Further mods complete
- obligatory paracord handle; I used 1100 for it. Wanted it thick and sturdy. That thing ain't going anywhere. First time I ever twisted paracord. Once I got the hang of it it went quick.

- homemade pace/ranger beads. The reason for yellow on the "last two"
A visual reminder that it's almost time to recycle the whole count. Simple enough to swap later if I want something less conspicuous.

-chest strap, nabbed from a rigid frame Kelty backpack.

- buckle mods: Dremeled out all the old metal hardware and replaced all with parachute/quick connect buckled, so much more handy.

- threaded through some paracord in the eyelets on the back.

- as of right now I have the Kelty back pad attached. I like the feel and it sits on my hips/lower back well. The concern is it's only attached by two straps that hold tension horizontally. Debating the Molle II back pad instead.

Before that however, I'm waiting in the arrival of my M1967 sleeping bag carrier before making the final decision. It fits with where I want it to go. As I might be getting an ultralight bag down the road it should work out. Not a fan of the bed roll or any part of the sleep system up on the top of the pack. I don't like the Molle Sleep system some use. As I use a Kymet ultra light pad it can easily go in the pack with the wobbie. So the M1967 just has to account for my bag in a longer dry sack (not pictured).

Still to do:
- need four more parachute/quick connect buckles. I have one more old metal connector to swap out. The other three? Two if I go with the Kelty back pad and one for possibly hooking up the Coleman backpack inside the Alice frame.

- ALICE canteens. I'm thinking two, even if empty would be good with the ALICE clips to each side. Even if empty the utility of having more is a factor. This goes along with one of my outside pouches which contains a Lifestraw, filters, purification tablets and Lifestraw Go; basically a hydration pouch. You'll notice a theme: water is life...

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2FIMG_3287.jpeg&hash=bf488978c6f94b3b75e479feb9ff95d7b7a7b3bd)

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Do you use your rucks with a frame? I found that they sit to high on my backside and were uncomfortable, even with the Hellcat mod.

Maybe just me?  Pictures are not visible, just shows plain outlined white blocks.

Quote from: NapalmMan67 on April 04, 2022, 03:39:49 PM
Do you use your rucks with a frame? I found that they sit to high on my backside and were uncomfortable, even with the Hellcat mod.

Maybe just me?  Pictures are not visible, just shows plain outlined white blocks.

What does this resolve to?
http://www.dogsofwaronline.com/images/willmark/prepper/IMG_3294.jpeg

Quote from: Ghost on April 04, 2022, 05:21:41 PM

Quote from: NapalmMan67 on April 04, 2022, 03:39:49 PM
Do you use your rucks with a frame? I found that they sit to high on my backside and were uncomfortable, even with the Hellcat mod.

Maybe just me?  Pictures are not visible, just shows plain outlined white blocks.

What does this resolve to?
http://www.dogsofwaronline.com/images/willmark/prepper/IMG_3294.jpeg

Right click and open in new tab and the pics work just fine

Quote from: Ghost on April 04, 2022, 05:21:41 PM

Quote from: NapalmMan67 on April 04, 2022, 03:39:49 PM
Do you use your rucks with a frame? I found that they sit to high on my backside and were uncomfortable, even with the Hellcat mod.

Maybe just me?  Pictures are not visible, just shows plain outlined white blocks.

What does this resolve to?
http://www.dogsofwaronline.com/images/willmark/prepper/IMG_3294.jpeg 

Blank screen.

Quote from: flybynight on April 04, 2022, 06:24:53 PM

Quote from: Ghost on April 04, 2022, 05:21:41 PM

Quote from: NapalmMan67 on April 04, 2022, 03:39:49 PM
Do you use your rucks with a frame? I found that they sit to high on my backside and were uncomfortable, even with the Hellcat mod.

Maybe just me?  Pictures are not visible, just shows plain outlined white blocks.

What does this resolve to?
http://www.dogsofwaronline.com/images/willmark/prepper/IMG_3294.jpeg

Right click and open in new tab and the pics work just fine 

Nope.



I'm used to it, this is not the only site I can't see pictures on when using.

Molle back pad and M1967 sleep carrier have been procured. Hope to wrap up my bag next week with the upgrades.

Next is converting the rest of the family packs to the same standard as the next project. Even the medium might be too much for my daughter, despite being in her late teens she's small and thin, might be too much for her.

Largely finished my BOB, or should I say revamped it.

Still have some things to decide on the water bladder so its place it in one pocket for now. MOLLE Back pad is fairly faded rather than the color it should be, for now it will do and fits well; fortunately didn't spend too much on it. The M-1967 sleeping bag carrier lines up well on the pack. I did reverse it so its "upside down" as it were and took off the medal slide hardware and put on quick connect parachute snaps.

I went with the idea of packing lighter from the very start, but still ended with a lot. Next step is t swap out gear with higher quality and/or lighter gear but it accomplished my goal of revamping my get out of dodge pack. Next up is getting another ALICE for my son's pack and doing the same upgrades. After that there are two smaller ALICE pack type bags at a semi-local surplus store nearby. I want to look them over first before buying. The are listed as small which might fit for my wife and daughter who are on the smaller side.

Anyways, photos. This was late last night and haven't really gone through and optimized, I just wanted to see if it all fit.

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2FIMG_3325.jpeg&hash=e121d115dd7a237be2644a3ca28be14fc13b062b)

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Nice job. Just out of curiosity, how tall are you? I would love to see your loadout and how much weight you carry in it. I have not rucked with an ALICE in years (we got issued MOLLE 2 rucks in 2009).  If I am not mistaken, it tends to work best for people with shorter torsos unless you are wearing a buttpack to raise it up. I bought a large ALICE that I hope to be using as the base component for an upcoming INCH system project. I filled it up about halfway and tried it on with a Helikon-Tex buttpack/suspenders but that is as far as I have gotten.

I used an alice pack in the USMC. I doubt you can find a more bulletproof affordable pack. I own two for my family. One is a large alice pack knockoff. And one is a medium spec ops. Which are way nicer than a stock alice. But you have to catch their sales.

But...

They're made in one size fits all. And the number one thing you need to before buying a pack is get fitted for one. They do this for free at any rei or outdoor shop. Or you can find instructions online.

Everyones torso are different lengths. And your waistbelt should hold a good portion of the weight on your pelvis. Not your shoulders.

I'm 6'3" and need a 21 inch sized backpack iirc. Which translates into a large. The Alice is not that. I suffered thru years of its use in the Marine Corps. Lol. It rides pretty much entirely in my shoulders. The waist belt hits me fairly far above my hips.

So just keep that in mind. And olease get yourself fitted before buying a pack. Its essential.

Second from left is the spec ops. Very high quality alice. I got it onsale for $50. But they normally run $150 iirc. Third from left is knockoff large alice. I dont like the snaps that hold the pockets down. But its good enough.

Keep in mind you have a choice between large and medium.

20220410_204915.jpg

Quote from: Lettuce Pray on April 19, 2022, 01:18:59 PMNice job. Just out of curiosity, how tall are you? I would love to see your loadout and how much weight you carry in it. I have not rucked with an ALICE in years (we got issued MOLLE 2 rucks in 2009).  If I am not mistaken, it tends to work best for people with shorter torsos unless you are wearing a buttpack to raise it up. I bought a large ALICE that I hope to be using as the base component for an upcoming INCH system project. I filled it up about halfway and tried it on with a Helikon-Tex buttpack/suspenders but that is as far as I have gotten.

5'7" It fits me perfectly. With the MOLLE 2 backpad it has 99% of the weight sitting right on the hips or at least it feels that way.

About the only thing I can see right now is not a lot of "room" on the shoulder straps which I'll need to adjust. I don't weight a ton (I weight lift and practice karate so fairly fit) but we get four seasons around here. In winter it would be a bit tight if my jacket was too bulky. Right now I'm looking at more modular jackets that can be layered and I tend to be hot all the time. I'm the type of guy who wears shorts all year round and can get by with hiking pants that convert to shorts and long underwear when winter camping.

As far as the load out its a work in progress as I jammed it in there to see it all fit. Next up is refining it and getting the bulk lower. For clothing I've got some vacuum seal bags, the kind people who travel a lot use. Sure rolling it works too but you can get stuff fairly small or at least thing with those bags. Basically hook it up to the vacuum after the clothes are folded in it and bam "thin" clothing.

Follow up. I also reinforced a lot of the stitching with Liquid Stitch. Holy Crap this stuff is strong. Place it where you want, clamp it and 30 minutes later its dry and not coming apart.

I got it at Joann's fabrics for $8 for a 2 fl oz bottle.
https://www.amazon.com/Dritz-PRY-653111-653111-Liquid-Multicolor/dp/B0018NA0F8/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=liquid%2Bstitch&qid=1650495674&sr=8-2&th=1

Quote from: Ghost on April 20, 2022, 06:02:31 PMFollow up. I also reinforced a lot of the stitching with Liquid Stitch. Holy Crap this stuff is strong. Place it where you want, clamp it and 30 minutes later its dry and not coming apart.

I got it at Joann's fabrics for $8 for a 2 fl oz bottle.
https://www.amazon.com/Dritz-PRY-653111-653111-Liquid-Multicolor/dp/B0018NA0F8/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=liquid%2Bstitch&qid=1650495674&sr=8-2&th=1

Yep, good stuff.  My mom used to use it on occasion.

Quote from: Ghost on April 12, 2022, 07:15:14 PMNext up is getting another ALICE for my son's pack and doing the same upgrades.

I was able to snag an ALICE at a decent price last week in good shape with a brand new frame. Time to update the buckles which arrived a few days ago.

Quote from: Ghost on April 12, 2022, 07:15:14 PMAfter that there are two smaller ALICE pack type bags at a semi-local surplus store nearby. I want to look them over first before buying. The are listed as small which might fit for my wife and daughter who are on the smaller side.

Likewise checked these out in person and even with the "GI style" being sturdier the basic problem is they are too small. So I might be looking at ALICE Medium rucks for my wife and daughter.

Do any of you have good sources for a good deal on frames and waist belts? I need two of each.

Just being lazy. I need to search this online. I don't mind aftermarket either. 

Ghost - do you think all aftermarkets are to small? Or just the ones you looked at? Thats really odd that they would try to copy the alice frame. And not have it at least match dimensionally.

I was also looking at an aftermarket medium alice in multicam. With everything - frame, ruck, shoulder straps and waist belt for $150. I know thats alot for an aftermarket alice. But if your hooked on multicam, like i am, its not a bad deal. I think even the ruck from spec ops is $150. I'll post it if anyones interested.

I haven't looked for a complete used medium alice in years. What do they go for? There used to be a surolus site that always had the best deals on them. I can see the site in my mind. But i dont remember the address. I'll have to dig thru my old bookmarks on my desktop.

The old boards had a thread on making an Alice pack frame out of pvc pipe. Think a heat gun was used to arch some pipe to conform to the arch in there back. Just pipe and elbows and glue.

Quote from: Moab on April 26, 2022, 06:32:31 PMDo any of you have good sources for a good deal on frames and waist belts? I need two of each.

Just being lazy. I need to search this online. I don't mind aftermarket either.

Ghost - do you think all aftermarkets are to small? Or just the ones you looked at? Thats really odd that they would try to copy the alice frame. And not have it at least match dimensionally.

I was also looking at an aftermarket medium alice in multicam. With everything - frame, ruck, shoulder straps and waist belt for $150. I know thats alot for an aftermarket alice. But if your hooked on multicam, like i am, its not a bad deal. I think even the ruck from spec ops is $150. I'll post it if anyones interested.

I haven't looked for a complete used medium alice in years. What do they go for? There used to be a surolus site that always had the best deals on them. I can see the site in my mind. But i dont remember the address. I'll have to dig thru my old bookmarks on my desktop.

In order:

1. In terms of the mini/small ALICE packs here is where I looked at them: https://camolots.com/collections/alice-packs-combat-packs. They are from Rothco and a really good review here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVpT8wY1DU

As he notes the problem is the pack is just too small to be useful, and it does utilize the ALICE frame. Watch the video, it s a cool concept, but I can see why the military didn't utilize it. I can't speak to all aftermarket ones, but while a cool idea you're better off with a medium in the long run.

I did see them in person and it just felt "off" having used the mediums and weird that you have that much available space on the frame.

2. You can find ALICE Packs on eBay (or the site above) but the price has been climbing and paradoxically all over the place at the same time. The price you are mentioning is correct. I got mine around $110 complete with a first responder discount. Personally unless the seller has a lot of photos I only buy them if I can see it in person, or if its someone trustworthy, say on the site. Too many variables IMO to buy sight unseen.

ETA (for those not in the know):
Dimensions of a mini/small ALICE: https://www.rothco.com/product/rothco-mini-alice-pack
Dimensions of a medium ALICE: https://geekprepper.com/alice-pack-bug-out-bag-upgrade/

Oh, and that crumbly, rubberized liner that is shot to Hell on your ALICE pack?

Genius idea on how to repair it:
Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LTH4JiV11c

Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmxAUpwqa4

Unfortunately (IMO) none of the color choices are great, a darker green would be ideal...

Wow. They used be $50 complete for used. 

FWIW I would stay away from everything rothco. Unless its something simple like a canteen or p38 or something. Even then check reviews. They are notorious for the lowest quality stuff. Cheap. Which is good sometimes. But low quality.

I'll have to dig around for some alice pack links.

Quote from: Moab on April 26, 2022, 09:21:31 PMWow. They used be $50 complete for used.

FWIW I would stay away from everything rothco. Unless its something simple like a canteen or p38 or something. Even then check reviews. They are notorious for the lowest quality stuff. Cheap. Which is good sometimes. But low quality.

I'll have to dig around for some alice pack links.

$50-$80 (on average) for the bag and the frame roughly the same for the frame. Some sell the straps separately too. If you are patient you can get something lower but it takes a lot of watching to get a good deal.

My pack I got for a good price $50 for a OD Medium, but that was 12 years ago. Straps were beat up which I've modified (as seen in this thread) likely to get replacement ones.

Question for the military types here:
- I understand the concept of field stripping the MREs, but a few questions.

Thoughts on the BoB, getting four meals down to four meals, but in one MRE bag per two meals? Weight is somewhat less but without the not needed stuff I've doubled the MREs in terms of space . I should also add, daughter is a vegetarian... so I've mixed and matched some MREs to add stuff she'll eat (obviously if SHTF that falls away) but for now it works should we need to get out of Dodge.

Basically I have it so I have two meals in one pouch with the "comfort stuff" (stripped down into one or the other) for each person's bag

Quote from: Ghost on May 01, 2022, 03:31:40 PMQuestion for the military types here:
- I understand the concept of field stripping the MREs, but a few questions.

Thoughts on the BoB, getting four meals down to four meals, but in one MRE bag per two meals? Weight is somewhat less but without the not needed stuff I've doubled the MREs in terms of space . I should also add, daughter is a vegetarian... so I've mixed and matched some MREs to add stuff she'll eat (obviously if SHTF that falls away) but for now it works should we need to get out of Dodge.

Basically I have it so I have two meals in one pouch with the "comfort stuff" (stripped down into one or the other) for each person's bag

Not sure I'm following your questions. But first there are vegatarian mre's. And they are cheap as fewer folks want them. 

I break mine down too. And take out alot of fluff. And add better things to them. I do like the crackers but i dont think alot of people do. And they are bulky. But they remind me of sailor crackers. Which i grew up on. Those and some jelly are a treat for me. I like the peanut butter too.

I don't use salt and pepper. Or the chinsy plastic silverware. I never used the heating pouches either. Because i got out before those were added. I was in at the end of c rations and the beginning if mre's. C rations were way better. But the mre weight made up for it. Canned food is just not backpack friendly. I loved the heat tabs tho. And if you sprinkled either the salt or the sugar over them before lighting. They wouldnt stink. I don't remember what we did to heat food before they added those heat packs to mre's. It might have been those two packs of heat tabs in foil. In addition to the mre.

I carry a mix of mountain house, mre and store bought stuff. But most of the store bought stuff is fairly fresh and used hiking. Not much that can be stored for long. I like alot of trader joe nuts and dried fruit. Youll find none better or cheaper. And it tends to last awhile  I've tried storing beef jerky. But it does not fair well. I bought it bulk. And it only lasted a few months before molding.

There are many many dehydrated food manufacturers now tho. That i would look into. Just do a top ten dehydrated foods search. I want to try more backpackers pantry(?). They are cheap and get goid reviews. Another in texas sells single items bulk. And there is of course LDS #10 cans of dried food. You could put together ingredients from. That would be very cheap i would think.

Quote from: Moab on May 15, 2022, 07:41:52 PM

Quote from: Ghost on May 01, 2022, 03:31:40 PMQuestion for the military types here:
- I understand the concept of field stripping the MREs, but a few questions.

Thoughts on the BoB, getting four meals down to four meals, but in one MRE bag per two meals? Weight is somewhat less but without the not needed stuff I've doubled the MREs in terms of space . I should also add, daughter is a vegetarian... so I've mixed and matched some MREs to add stuff she'll eat (obviously if SHTF that falls away) but for now it works should we need to get out of Dodge.

Basically I have it so I have two meals in one pouch with the "comfort stuff" (stripped down into one or the other) for each person's bag

Not sure I'm following your questions. But first there are vegatarian mre's. And they are cheap as fewer folks want them.

I break mine down too. And take out alot of fluff. And add better things to them. I do like the crackers but i dont think alot of people do. And they are bulky. But they remind me of sailor crackers. Which i grew up on. Those and some jelly are a treat for me. I like the peanut butter too.

I don't use salt and pepper. Or the chinsy plastic silverware. I never used the heating pouches either. Because i got out before those were added. I was in at the end of c rations and the beginning if mre's. C rations were way better. But the mre weight made up for it. Canned food is just not backpack friendly. I loved the heat tabs tho. And if you sprinkled either the salt or the sugar over them before lighting. They wouldnt stink. I don't remember what we did to heat food before they added those heat packs to mre's. It might have been those two packs of heat tabs in foil. In addition to the mre.

I carry a mix of mountain house, mre and store bought stuff. But most of the store bought stuff is fairly fresh and used hiking. Not much that can be stored for long. I like alot of trader joe nuts and dried fruit. Youll find none better or cheaper. And it tends to last awhile  I've tried storing beef jerky. But it does not fair well. I bought it bulk. And it only lasted a few months before molding.

There are many many dehydrated food manufacturers now tho. That i would look into. Just do a top ten dehydrated foods search. I want to try more backpackers pantry(?). They are cheap and get goid reviews. Another in texas sells single items bulk. And there is of course LDS #10 cans of dried food. You could put together ingredients from. That would be very cheap i would think.

I think I may not have worded it great but here is what I did.

1. I took all the MREs and emptied out everything.

2. From there I mixed and matched what each family member wanted.

3. Organized four meals for each person, field stripped. Placed each meal in its own ziplock bag. Labeled and taped with clear packing tape.

4. Placed 2 field stripped meals into one Mylar bag. (I saved the bags the MREs came in); labeled that with the contents.

5. In one of the two meals I placed a stripped down "meal kit" aka minimum sugars, salt etc.

6. Labeled the outside of the bags with what is inside and clear packing taped over that.

7. Squashed the bag containing the two meals and taped that.

8. End results? Placed 2 MRE Mylar bags labeled and field stripped, each containing 2 meals into each pack. Thus, four meals per person's pack, but greatly reduced on bulk and weight.

As an aside I tried some of the MREs. Are people expecting steak and lobster?(Not saying you) ;) I've eaten far, far worse stuff.

So work on my second ALICE and replacing the buckles with quick disconnect (parachute clips). The nylon loops on this one are much more stiff. As a result I've had to cut them and glue it back together with liquid stitch in some cases. On the other pack I was able to muscle the clips on with a cut through it with the Dremel, not so here.

So the M1967 sleep carrier isn't quite working the way I want it to so I started to think of the sleep systems overall and what I really want:

• Modular, around here we get all four seasons
• Lightweight
• Something roll-able
• Something that isn't in a bulky load out like the MSS, don't get me wrong they look awesome and are well liked, but fairly expensive.
• For my pad I use this, somewhat pricey, but well worth it. Camped in fairly cold weather (upper 20s) in my regular bag and was warm. Folds up neatly and goes right in the ruck. https://klymit.com/collections/sleeping-pads/products/insulated-static-v-lite-sleeping-pad
• I'm looking to eliminate the sleeping bags from my load out.
  Less bulk

I came across this, the Ranger roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvinrG8mnWc

Probably nothing new to the military guys, but this has advantages of being modular, roll able could possibly work with the M1967 sleeping bag carrier attached to the ALICE. Granted if raining a tarp is needed but that's fairly light weight.

Can't see any downsides to this.

• A woobie (aka poncho liner); already have one
• rain poncho; already have one.
• mylar casualty blanket; thttps://www.amazon.com/Dont-Die-Woods-Toughest-Emergency/dp/B07KL874F4/ref=sr_1_14?crid=1ZJ01SNVDOZDK&keywords=mylar%2Bcasualty%2Bblanket&qid=1653104194&sprefix=mylar%2Bcausalty%2Bblanket%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-14&th=1
• Wool blanket ; https://www.amazon.com/Arcturus-Mt-Rainier-Wool-Blanket/dp/B08KQ692BF/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2TT74WLYWYIED&keywords=wool%2Bblanket%2Bcamping&qid=1653104472&sprefix=wool%2Bbla%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-10&th=1

Single biggest cost is the wool blanket and the heaviest but everything else is light and rolls up in one piece. About the only improvement I can think of would be a waterproof tarp of some type to take the place of the poncho like this:https://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Tarp-Ground-Cloth/dp/B073475HTC/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2SO2RIV8ZYJNM&keywords=personal+waterproof+tarp&qid=1653104673&sprefix=personal+waterproof+tarp%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-4
 
Thoughts? It seems to really accomplish what Im looking to do. It also has the advantage of I'm not carrying something bulky on the top of the pack.

EDIT: another thought is throw in one of the smaller light weight bivy bags along with the mix above instead of the mylar blanket.

Quote from: Ghost on May 20, 2022, 11:19:56 PMSo the M1967 sleep carrier isn't quite working the way I want it to so I started to think of the sleep systems overall and what I really want:

• Modular, around here we get all four seasons
• Lightweight
• Something roll-able
• Something that isn't in a bulky load out like the MSS, don't get me wrong they look awesome and are well liked, but fairly expensive.
• For my pad I use this, somewhat pricey, but well worth it. Camped in fairly cold weather (upper 20s) in my regular bag and was warm. Folds up neatly and goes right in the ruck. https://klymit.com/collections/sleeping-pads/products/insulated-static-v-lite-sleeping-pad
• I'm looking to eliminate the sleeping bags from my load out.
  Less bulk

I came across this, the Ranger roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvinrG8mnWc

Probably nothing new to the military guys, but this has advantages of being modular, roll able could possibly work with the M1967 sleeping bag carrier attached to the ALICE. Granted if raining a tarp is needed but that's fairly light weight.

Can't see any downsides to this.

• A woobie (aka poncho liner); already have one
• rain poncho; already have one.
• mylar casualty blanket; thttps://www.amazon.com/Dont-Die-Woods-Toughest-Emergency/dp/B07KL874F4/ref=sr_1_14?crid=1ZJ01SNVDOZDK&keywords=mylar%2Bcasualty%2Bblanket&qid=1653104194&sprefix=mylar%2Bcausalty%2Bblanket%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-14&th=1
• Wool blanket ; https://www.amazon.com/Arcturus-Mt-Rainier-Wool-Blanket/dp/B08KQ692BF/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2TT74WLYWYIED&keywords=wool%2Bblanket%2Bcamping&qid=1653104472&sprefix=wool%2Bbla%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-10&th=1

Single biggest cost is the wool blanket and the heaviest but everything else is light and rolls up in one piece. About the only improvement I can think of would be a waterproof tarp of some type to take the place of the poncho like this:https://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Tarp-Ground-Cloth/dp/B073475HTC/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2SO2RIV8ZYJNM&keywords=personal+waterproof+tarp&qid=1653104673&sprefix=personal+waterproof+tarp%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-4
 
Thoughts? It seems to really accomplish what Im looking to do. It also has the advantage of I'm not carrying something bulky on the top of the pack.

EDIT: another thought is throw in one of the smaller light weight bivy bags along with the mix above instead of the mylar blanket.

You will freeze your ass off in that. And its way to heavy.

I was in the Marine Corps. And used ranger rolls. But we of course would never refer to them as that. Lol. That idea has been around for decades. 

But we only used the poncho and liner. You might get more warmth by adding a wool blanket and mylar. But its not going to breath. So your going to sweat. Not to mention the weight to comfort ratio is way off. You'd be better served using a commercial down bag and bivy. If you need the added protection of the bivy. 

This is why you've only found one or a few guys that recommend this system. Is it used in the military? Yes. Because it sucks less than carrying the extra 10lb MSS. And your mission using this type of system is limited to better climates and shorter missions. Trust me. If the military allowed you choose your own gear. This would be the last system used. But when its all your allowed to carry. Its a nice compromise in better weather. Thus the famed ranger roll.

So lets talk real world. Where you get to decide from any products available.

Are you tarp camping? Tent camping? If your in a tent you don't need a bivy. And your starting from a weight deficit. Because of the alice. Your pack is one of the big 3. Pack, shelter, sleep system. Your pack is already at least 5lbs overweight at 10lbs. You can easily get a 4lb pack for the price of an alice. 

My first advice is sell all the Alice's and get real modern packs. Alices were only a good option when they were cheap. And you couldnt afford anymore. Sell them for $150. And buy a new bag for $150 and it will be tens times better. And weigh 5 or 6lbs less. 

But lets go on the assumption that your not gonna sell the alice packs.

The next place you can save weight is the sleep system. The cheapest down bags are from Kelty. Unless you can find something from last year on sale. Or used. 

Kelty has a sale around this time of year. You can get a 0F to maybe 20F dridown bag for $100 to $150. I used to recommend the usgi bivy. But now at over $80. Its not such a grand slam. But it is still the toughest for the money. I have not shopped for bivies in a long time tho.

There's a site called gearx that sells last years models. Here is their page for down bags by price.

https://www.gearx.com/camping/sleeping-bags

Or at least it should be down by price. But that place is a great source of cheaper last years items. Look at their oacks and tents too. Even netter look on offerup, CL and Facebook Marketplace.

Down is light weight, packs very small, and with the newer down tech isn't as easy to get wet as it once was. I highly encourage you to look into it.

Your going to have to save weight someplace or your going to end up with 25-30lbs of just base weight with your main 3. 

What you need is also very dependant on your environment. Two things i would suggest:

1) Consider breaking your gear down between winter and the rest of the year. Make an extra module of winter needs. That can be exchanged or added to your system when u need it. Like say a tent in winter and a tarp the rest of the year. If your ao can work that way. (Also consider.modules if you move from BOB to INCH bag for instance. Add a module to your BOB that makes it an INCH etc.)

2) Consider the above - tarp camping. The lightest i have ever figured out to go is a tarp, bivy and down sleeping bag. In the extreme just a sleeping bag and bivy. But that is rough living. And as lightweight as you can get tarp material for nowdays. I think the tarp, bivy sleeping bag idea is the way to go. Then add a tent in the winter. Or exchange the tarp for a tent. I really like the idea of a tent and even a small, very lightweight tarp. You need area outside of your tent that is protected in bad weather.

Last word of caution.

I say this because I've been there. Go look at my first  INCH loadout post. It was all "bombproof" cheap military gear. And weighed as much as a Volkswagan.

You want to take advantage of an inexpensive, bombproof set up from the military. Because its cool, is very rugged, and appears to hit all the buttons for the best bombproof gear set up. But its not cheap anymore. As evidenced by the price of alice and mss now. But its always been to heavy.

If you really want to get bad ass. Think about what special forces uses. They can pick anything they want. I have an Arcteryx 80l multicam backpack that only weighs 5lbs. That was once used by sf. You don't have to buy Arcteryx brand tho. Its uber expensive. I only bought it on sale from Canada for $200. It was a one time deal.

But if sf could choose their own gear it would be as lightweight as possible. And "good enough" to get the mission done. Which is very different from "Can the military buy this backpack for every member? And be able to throw it fully loaded 8ft off the back of a truck time and time again?".

SF will use these lightweight modern technical equipment. Because they know the weight they save will be taken up by ammo, food and other operational tools that are more important than being able to throw their ruck off a truck 17 times. And this isn't to mention how faster and farther they can move. Without that added weight. You want that too.

Again, you can get a modern pack that will carry your load on your body tens times more comfortable than an alice. For the same amount of money. That is over half the weight. Thats 5lbs of ammo. Or food. Or radio equipment. Or 5lbs lighter on your feet when your trying to truck up that mountain.

Consider your complete system. Shelter, sleep system and pack. And don't decide on a pack if you haven't carried one a good distance over multiple days. It sucks. Even with the best packs. Thats part of where the term "Embrace the suck!" comes from.

I suggest you stop where your at. Go take a three day trip. Before you spend anymore money. And then decide what gear you want. 

I´m one of those ultralight hikers, so take this into consideration. Having said that, my gear has lasted 10 years and around 4000 miles now, without any major failures.

Wool blankets are nice, but not If you need to carry them. They are bulky and heavy. The only true advantage they have is if you are near a campfire. If you use the fire for warmth, you are better off investing in a sleeping bag / quilt. A wool blanket weighs easily over 2kg and gets me down to around 10°C, a regular (not ultralight) sleeping bag around 1kg gets you easily down to freezing.
If you want the wool blanket so you can sleep next to a fire, it is better to get a cover or bivy that doesn´t burn. Personally, I use a piece of densely woven cotton. But in my opinion, it´s easier to get an adequate sleeping bag for the temperatures you are expecting.

With a bivy I would go for a synthetic sleeping bag / quilt. You can have the best breathable material that is available, if it rains you will get condensation. If it rains over consecutive days without the option of drying out your bag, the down will collapse, even if it is waterproofed. I´ve also had down collapse on me without a bivy, but that was over several weeks in moist conditions.

If you want to save weight, the lightest option is a down quilt. Down vs. synthetic is a personal choice. Quilts are lighter but you need to try out whether you like them. If you enjoy using the poncho liner a quilt might be a good option for you. You can sow one (especially synthetic) easily yourself, even if you are unexperienced.
There are also quilts with a neck opening in the middle that are usable as a poncho (similar to a poncho liner, only warmer). I only know European manufacturers, but I´m sure there are some in the US. I like to have a dedicated sleeping bag and jacket and not a poncho liner. Otherwise, if you use it for a longer time, it will get smelly, and moist if it rains.

A sleeping bag doesn´t have to have durable fabric, it is not going to snag on anything. Mine has an outer fabric that weighs 30g/m² and is still intact after over 10 years of regular use. The important thing is the filling and storage. I prefer climashield apex as insulation. 200/250 g/m² should be enough down to around 0°C.

For a shelter, the lightest is a tarp. Combined with either a simple ground cloth, bivy (there are very lightweight bug bivys and water-resistant options), or a kind of inner net. I like bivys because they also add warmth and protect against wind. A tarp poncho is a nice multipurpose option if you don´t mind that you don´t have any shell layer if your camp is set up. Ponchos can also get very annoying in windy areas.
There are shaped tarps, that give you some of the advantages of tents. I have a MLD cricket at home, that has withstood winds of around 60mph. If you want a tent a simple mid is lightweight and very wind resistant with lots of space. I would use a tent if you expect lots of dust (for example Iceland) or heavy snow, for everything else I´d use my tarp.

You can also use a waterproof bivy as a standalone. The lighter ones weigh around 300-500g. I´ve done this, but wouldn´t recommend it for areas where you expect mostly rain. You can use a mini tarp over the head portion to get a bit more room if that is the case.

It all depends on what climate you are in and your personal preferences.
My sleeping bag is the one piece of gear I don´t care too much about weight if it lets me sleep comfortably. You can go longer without food than sleep. Consider your expected minimum temperature and choose your sleep system accordingly.
Also consider how long you expect to have to use your sleep system.

I agree with Moab: The most important thing is to try your system out. For example I sleep very cold and need a sleeping bag that is rated 10°C more than what the manufacturer says. Or it might be that you have a quilt and can´t stand it. The best sleeping bag and shelter is useless if you can´t sleep in it.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Couple of points:
1, I have been using my gear, I regularly camp even in cold weather. I tend to sleep VERY hot. My personal biggest issue is back comfort, hence the Kylmet mat I use.

2. @Moab, weve talked about this, for me an ALICE fits just fine and the weight sits on my hips well at 5 7" As you mentioned you're taller hence it not fitting as well.

3. On the idea of weight. When I was first a fireman? we used these, talk about uncomfortable! https://www.dontscrapit.com/New-Hampshire-/Scott-2216-psi-air-pak-presur-pak-ii-2-mask.php5 ALICE packs are luxury compared to this torture!

4. Point taken on the ranger rolls. I want something more portable so perhaps the bivy advice is the way to go. Years ago I made sure i had enough sleeping bags. What I'm looking at now is the load out and upgrades. I keep coming back to my ground map. Compact, lightweight and fits neatly in the pack.

In general on the ALICE packs: I've used my primary one for years. I recently upgraded everything and it works well. My next step might be swapping it for MOLLE shoulder straps as the MOLLE waist band is perfect. Overall as not crazy tall the ALICE fits me well and weight distribution isn't an issue.

But here is the weirdest thing (perhaps for some), I actually like the internal layout of the ALICE and the pockets on the outside. With the buckles swapped out its like a completely different pack.

If you sleep hot and have used the poncho liner before you could add a sol escape bivy. I know someone who uses it as a standalone sleep option (no sleeping bag or anything) at around 55°F, for extra insulation a thin packaple down quilt if needed. If you use the down quilt inside the poncho liner, the synthetic liner protects the down from condensation.
Add a tarpponcho for cover.

The sol escape bivy weighs 241g, a lightweight down quilt / blanket around 400g, a lightweight silnylon tarpponcho 230g.
That would put you around 870g plus whatever your poncho liner weighs for a modular sleep system that you can use down to freezing and gives you a rain cover.

Taking a pause from the consideration on the sleep systems. Biggest issue is attachment with the right compression sack; the M1967 sleeping bag carrier was not a great success with the bag. Could be in need a more compact bag or better compression sack or both. So more research is needed as we get all four seasons here.

I know what I want to do (I think) but shifted to working on higher up on the priorities list as it were. 

In for a penny, in for a pound as they say and thanks to a member here I now have medium ALICE packs for all four of the family members as BOBs.

For what I'm looking to do, it has the following advantages.
- all are or will be set to the Hellcat mod with parachute buckles in place for all the metal hardware.

- all have MOLLE waistband/belts.

- all will or already have paracord carrying handles. (See page 1)

- commonality of load out. All will (roughly speaking) store the same items in the same spot in each ruck.

All are in good shape, three are OD green except mine which is camo (swapped it from page one.)

Remaining is: swapping the buckles on the latest packs where needed and finishing sewing on one MOLLE belt/band.

Once complete I'll refocus on a permanent solution for all sleep systems. In the interim I have temp solutions, but bulky for the bags. Likely next step on that front is two more Klymet mats: lightweight, compact and work really, really well.

Now that I've had a chance to delve into the two ALICE packs I just got?Holy crap the MOLLE II shoulder straps with the MOLLE II waist band make the ALICE close to perfect IMO. All I need to do now is determine the sleep system carrying for the bags and I'm set for my needs.

Coming up right after 4th of July I'll be starting to test out my pack one some hikes of varying lengths.

Update
No photos at the moment, but I may have at least solved my interim dilemma in terms of how carry my sleeping bag: better compression sack (duh right?); so with that in mind I went with this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HDCGN5X?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Works perfectly with the sleeping bag inside and attached to the bottom of the ALICE and can be cinched tight with? You guessed it the M1967 sleeping bag carrier works perfect for this. I also have a feeling that once I upgrade to better, lightweight bags its going to carry even better. Seems fairly durable for the price.

Next step is getting another for the "top" bag as that's where I'm carrying my woobie, poncho and tarp. Kymet ground mat goes in the main pouch as its really compact. So, sleep system solved for the moment. But as it stands right now I'm forgoing a tent, tarp it is (more on that below).

As noted next steps are some walking tests (wife is going to drop me off and I'm going to hoof it back) and see where it goes.

After this my last steps is to sew some loops on the end of my quick release straps.

This will give me a prototype as it were for the other three bags and can gauge what works and what doesn't while considering the load out; out already is the machete and hand saw. Hultafors axe for the win! I know the tendency is to throw everything in there but I'm trying to evaluate it right from the beginning so folding saw is borderline right now with a small ring saw taking its place.

As an aside and somewhat related to the packs? I started thinking about drop tanks used on military aircraft starting in WW2 to increase range and how that would work for bugging out on foot during SHTF with "drop tanks". Solution? I have a two wheel cart that I use for deer hunting with can easily be pulled. As long as its no too over-weighted while bugging out? That's where the stuff that doesn't quite make the cut goes" the a fore mentioned tent, saw, machete, etc. Basically, stuff you would want to take with you but if you have to abandon it, you can. Thoughts?

Quote from: Ghost on June 21, 2022, 08:13:52 PMNo photos at the moment, but I may have at least solved my interim dilemma in terms of how carry my sleeping bag: better compression sack

I´d be really interested in pictures. I´ve been thinking about adding one to the bottom of my pack. I usually like to stuff my sleeping bag without bag in the bottom of it for hiking, but since I need to store it uncompressed next to it that´s not practicable in this instance.

Quote from: Ghost on June 21, 2022, 08:13:52 PMI have a two wheel cart that I use for deer hunting with can easily be pulled. As long as its no too over-weighted while bugging out? That's where the stuff that doesn't quite make the cut goes" the a fore mentioned tent, saw, machete, etc. Basically, stuff you would want to take with you but if you have to abandon it, you can. Thoughts?

I think Ever has something similar, I´ve been wanting one since I saw his. My plan is to put my 45 litre INCH bag in the cart with enough space in it to dump my BOB in there. Some of the items that I´d like simply for comfort reasons could go next to it. These would be dumped if need be (water canister, extra blanket, ...). I won´t be putting any tools outside of the bag though, I don´t want to have to dump these next to some road. If they are not important enough to go in my bag then I don´t need them.

My most realistic reasons for leaving are either a fire or natural disaster. In both cases I have a higher chance of being able to get back and at least safe some things than to recover items I had to drop of somewhere. I think the chance I´d have to abandon the cart are quite high in my case. It all depends on your most likely scenarios.

Got out on a five mile hike with the pack, no issues for me. My back is all kinds of pain most days and in the hike with it weighing 35 lbs? No pain, actually felt better lol.

Hiking again tonight with it same distance.

Next up is reevaluating the load out.

Also tested the flex seal coating on the inside flap worked perfect.

Lastly repainted the carrier for folding shovel. Works just fine on the pack as it has Alice clips. Will try to get photos later.

Quote from: Ghost on July 06, 2022, 11:50:43 AMNext up is reevaluating the load out.

Next up are some pictures, surely.

(https://sd.keepcalms.com/i/pretty-pretty-please.png)

Quote from: tirls on July 06, 2022, 12:57:05 PM

Quote from: Ghost on July 06, 2022, 11:50:43 AMNext up is reevaluating the load out.

Next up are some pictures, surely.

(https://sd.keepcalms.com/i/pretty-pretty-please.png)

Took some photos of the ruck and I'll try to get them uploaded tonight.

Also got out again on a hike with the pack last night. Covered 1 mile every 20 minutes for 4.5 total at a moderate pace. Shooting for Sunday for the next hike increasing to five miles total.

3 mph is a respectable average speed for hiking.

I am looking forward to your re-evaluation as well. I can go hiking for two weeks with 7 pounds but as soon as I try to pack a BOB I´m up to 20. :smiley_chinrub:

Quote from: tirls on July 07, 2022, 02:11:42 PM3 mph is a respectable average speed for hiking.

Yeah, my Dr. told me that years ago.  But I say everyone has their own pace, because when I set my treadmill to 3mph, it's uncomfortable for a workout.  My pace has always been slower than most others I've been around, 2-2.3mph is comfortable for me.  I always took up the rear in Boy Scouts when we went on hikes...  and still do 45 years later.

As discussed, the revamped pack that is forming the basis for the other three:
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded1.jpeg&hash=a159bf948090df414d97c22242d2690129d45201)

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded2.jpeg&hash=7b4c72efa00b50543074dabe8c6ed3d9967becc3)

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded3.jpeg&hash=9e0dba8888bb0d950dcf623d9958c68b8e1cee8b)

Couple of notes:
Pack #1 (mine- 100% complete)

• The Hultafors axe is perfect, love that thing, well worth the price, but not where I intent to carry it. Looking for a pouch  to secure it and have it go vertically. The space behind the three outside pockets works but gets in the way of the sleeping bag below.
• This pack I got back in April at an Army/Navy surplus store. Liked it so much it became my primary pack and my testing has gone on with this one. Used the same frame from my original pack.
• Haven't gotten to the unloading of the pack and deciding on load out; working on the next three and for the time being the weight is good for the workouts.

So with that in mind, here is where I stand with the remaining:

Pack #2 (75% complete)

• Adding quick connect parachute buckles right now, as of writing this I just Dremeled off the metal hardware.
• MOLLE waistband attached.
• MOLLE shoulder straps attached.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

Pack #3 (50% complete)

• This was my previous pack depicted on page 1
• Quick connect buckles complete.
• MOLLE waistband dyed and reassembled, but not sure about the set on the epoxy resin of the waist band connectors in the back. May just buy another and chalk this up to learning. EDIT just checked: the combination of epoxy along with liquid stitch? Holy crap its not going anywhere. I added the liquid stitch last night and then put it in vice clamp, worked really good
• Need to order MOLLE shoulder straps.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

Pack #4 (0% complete)

• Need to order quick connect buckles, but (likely) only need to order 3 more as I have some remaining from previous orders. (If I get on a role I might Dremel off the hardware tonight).
• Need to order MOLLE waistband
• Need to order MOLLE shoulder straps.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

I´ve got my axe secured with an ice axe loop if I need to take it somewhere. A simple loop at the bottom of the pack, feed the axe through from the top with the edge facing inward until the head catches on the loop and flip the handle toward the top. Secure the end of the handle with either another loop or carabiner. The axe sits vertically and if you don´t need it you can use the loop to attach other things. It´s a very lightweight option and very secure.
I like your solution with the sleeping bag attachment, might need to nick that.

Quote from: Ghost on July 07, 2022, 05:43:18 PMAn important closing thought: what to do in the interim? I think something that gets missed sometimes in prepping is "stop gaps" is it great to have top notch gear in everything? Sure, and damn expensive too. Sometimes you have to have interim measures in place, whether cheap or moderate or perhaps not even what you want. So why is this important. I have three bags that fill in for the BOB while I'm upgrading these to the same standard. The good news these are good REI ones so not a step down in quality but they are not uniform which is one of the things I'm trying to fix by standardization on ALICE packs.

You´re clearly good with modifying gear. Have you tried sewing things yourself? The markup on outdoor gear can be ridiculous. Things like tents and sleeping bags are surprisingly easy to make and often a lot lighter.

Love your idea of uniform packs for everyone.

Quote from: tirls on July 08, 2022, 05:04:12 AMI´ve got my axe secured with an ice axe loop if I need to take it somewhere. A simple loop at the bottom of the pack, feed the axe through from the top with the edge facing inward until the head catches on the loop and flip the handle toward the top. Secure the end of the handle with either another loop or carabiner. The axe sits vertically and if you don´t need it you can use the loop to attach other things. It´s a very lightweight option and very secure.

I like your solution with the sleeping bag attachment, might need to nick that.

Quote from: Ghost on July 07, 2022, 05:43:18 PMAn important closing thought: what to do in the interim? I think something that gets missed sometimes in prepping is "stop gaps" is it great to have top notch gear in everything? Sure, and damn expensive too. Sometimes you have to have interim measures in place, whether cheap or moderate or perhaps not even what you want. So why is this important. I have three bags that fill in for the BOB while I'm upgrading these to the same standard. The good news these are good REI ones so not a step down in quality but they are not uniform which is one of the things I'm trying to fix by standardization on ALICE packs.

You´re clearly good with modifying gear. Have you tried sewing things yourself? The markup on outdoor gear can be ridiculous. Things like tents and sleeping bags are surprisingly easy to make and often a lot lighter.

Love your idea of uniform packs for everyone.

Many thanks, in order:
1. That is kinda what I'm thinking. I wonder if its something like this then, with what you are describing? https://www.amazon.com/leather-hammer-holder-distressed-hatchet/dp/B08NDQTGNV

2. Thanks for the complement, I think I might be able to get a sewing machine. I haven't sewed anything with one since my early teens. Passable by hand but I'd want it to be machine sewn. (parents of all boys wanted us to be able to do anything we might need to- I can sew, wife can't, I can; go figure!)

Might be a winter project: how light can I get it with maximum heat retention.

3. As far as the sleeping bag attached to bottom, feel free. Bags are well made and for the price can't beat it.

On the topic at hand:
1. 2nd pack is now 95% complete, just need to Flexiseal the inside flap.
2. All now have paracord handles. Might not look like it but they are all actually the same size. In fact the only one different is on mine. I made the other three tad bit bigger on purpose.

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_paracord_handles.jpeg&hash=0b4fe1208b69f012931035d5c4503f7f9bdd28ca)

You can get used sewing machines for around 25-50. It doesn´t need to be a modern one either, I sew my things on an old handcrank Singer. Very thin fabrics can sometimes be slippery, silnylon for example, but that is really the only difficulty. Especially tents consist of nothing but long straight seams and it doesn´t even matter if they turn out slightly crooked. If you can hem a pair of trousers you make a tent or sleeping bag and the fabrics are all availably online.

Ice axe loops can sometimes be found on the bottom of hiking bags. I´ve got a simply loop of string that I feed through a gromet if I need one, but you can also sew one on or conect it to a daisy chain. You slide the axe in, turn it upside down and secure it at the top. I apologize for the flood of pictures.

Work continues apace:
- inside of all packs done with Flexiseal.
- 3rd MOLLE waistband reassembled.
- metal connectors off 4th pack; attaching parachute buckles outside while drinking gin and tonic.  :smiley_knipoog:

Quote from: tirls on July 09, 2022, 01:45:30 PMYou can get used sewing machines for around 25-50. It doesn´t need to be a modern one either, I sew my things on an old handcrank Singer. Very thin fabrics can sometimes be slippery, silnylon for example, but that is really the only difficulty. Especially tents consist of nothing but long straight seams and it doesn´t even matter if they turn out slightly crooked. If you can hem a pair of trousers you make a tent or sleeping bag and the fabrics are all availably online.

Ice axe loops can sometimes be found on the bottom of hiking bags. I´ve got a simply loop of string that I feed through a gromet if I need one, but you can also sew one on or conect it to a daisy chain. You slide the axe in, turn it upside down and secure it at the top. I apologize for the flood of pictures.

Dress/fix up that loop/rope! Lol

Quote from: Ghost on July 07, 2022, 05:43:18 PMAs discussed, the revamped pack that is forming the basis for the other three:
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded1.jpeg&hash=a159bf948090df414d97c22242d2690129d45201)

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded2.jpeg&hash=7b4c72efa00b50543074dabe8c6ed3d9967becc3)

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded3.jpeg&hash=9e0dba8888bb0d950dcf623d9958c68b8e1cee8b)

Couple of notes:
Pack #1 (mine- 100% complete)

• The Hultafors axe is perfect, love that thing, well worth the price, but not where I intent to carry it. Looking for a pouch  to secure it and have it go vertically. The space behind the three outside pockets works but gets in the way of the sleeping bag below.
• This pack I got back in April at an Army/Navy surplus store. Liked it so much it became my primary pack and my testing has gone on with this one. Used the same frame from my original pack.
• Haven't gotten to the unloading of the pack and deciding on load out; working on the next three and for the time being the weight is good for the workouts.

So with that in mind, here is where I stand with the remaining:

Pack #2 (75% complete)

• Adding quick connect parachute buckles right now, as of writing this I just Dremeled off the metal hardware.
• MOLLE waistband attached.
• MOLLE shoulder straps attached.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

Pack #3 (50% complete)

• This was my previous pack depicted on page 1
• Quick connect buckles complete.
• MOLLE waistband dyed and reassembled, but not sure about the set on the epoxy resin of the waist band connectors in the back. May just buy another and chalk this up to learning. EDIT just checked: the combination of epoxy along with liquid stitch? Holy crap its not going anywhere. I added the liquid stitch last night and then put it in vice clamp, worked really good
• Need to order MOLLE shoulder straps.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

Pack #4 (0% complete)

• Need to order quick connect buckles, but (likely) only need to order 3 more as I have some remaining from previous orders. (If I get on a role I might Dremel off the hardware tonight).
• Need to order MOLLE waistband
• Need to order MOLLE shoulder straps.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

As you can see, Pack #4 needs the most work as I haven't done anything with it yet. Pack #4 also will need to be dyed. Its a bit too "bright" as it were so once I remove the metal hardware I'm going to dye it first then proceed.

NOTE: when I say complete I'm talking about them as ready to go as it were, no pack is every really complete.

An important closing thought: what to do in the interim? I think something that gets missed sometimes in prepping is "stop gaps" is it great to have top notch gear in everything? Sure, and damn expensive too. Sometimes you have to have interim measures in place, whether cheap or moderate or perhaps not even what you want. So why is this important. I have three bags that fill in for the BOB while I'm upgrading these to the same standard. The good news these are good REI ones so not a step down in quality but they are not uniform which is one of the things I'm trying to fix by standardization on ALICE packs.

So as deployed. What is the weight ?

Quote from: flybynight on July 27, 2022, 12:12:24 PM

Quote from: Ghost on July 07, 2022, 05:43:18 PMAs discussed, the revamped pack that is forming the basis for the other three:
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded1.jpeg&hash=a159bf948090df414d97c22242d2690129d45201)

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded2.jpeg&hash=7b4c72efa00b50543074dabe8c6ed3d9967becc3)

(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsofwaronline.com%2Fimages%2Fwillmark%2Fprepper%2Falice_upgraded3.jpeg&hash=9e0dba8888bb0d950dcf623d9958c68b8e1cee8b)

Couple of notes:
Pack #1 (mine- 100% complete)

• The Hultafors axe is perfect, love that thing, well worth the price, but not where I intent to carry it. Looking for a pouch  to secure it and have it go vertically. The space behind the three outside pockets works but gets in the way of the sleeping bag below.
• This pack I got back in April at an Army/Navy surplus store. Liked it so much it became my primary pack and my testing has gone on with this one. Used the same frame from my original pack.
• Haven't gotten to the unloading of the pack and deciding on load out; working on the next three and for the time being the weight is good for the workouts.

So with that in mind, here is where I stand with the remaining:

Pack #2 (75% complete)

• Adding quick connect parachute buckles right now, as of writing this I just Dremeled off the metal hardware.
• MOLLE waistband attached.
• MOLLE shoulder straps attached.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

Pack #3 (50% complete)

• This was my previous pack depicted on page 1
• Quick connect buckles complete.
• MOLLE waistband dyed and reassembled, but not sure about the set on the epoxy resin of the waist band connectors in the back. May just buy another and chalk this up to learning. EDIT just checked: the combination of epoxy along with liquid stitch? Holy crap its not going anywhere. I added the liquid stitch last night and then put it in vice clamp, worked really good
• Need to order MOLLE shoulder straps.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

Pack #4 (0% complete)

• Need to order quick connect buckles, but (likely) only need to order 3 more as I have some remaining from previous orders. (If I get on a role I might Dremel off the hardware tonight).
• Need to order MOLLE waistband
• Need to order MOLLE shoulder straps.
• A few pieces of paracord in eyelets still to go.
• Need to spray Flexiseal for underside of map flap.
• Paracord carrying handle still to go.

As you can see, Pack #4 needs the most work as I haven't done anything with it yet. Pack #4 also will need to be dyed. Its a bit too "bright" as it were so once I remove the metal hardware I'm going to dye it first then proceed.

NOTE: when I say complete I'm talking about them as ready to go as it were, no pack is every really complete.

An important closing thought: what to do in the interim? I think something that gets missed sometimes in prepping is "stop gaps" is it great to have top notch gear in everything? Sure, and damn expensive too. Sometimes you have to have interim measures in place, whether cheap or moderate or perhaps not even what you want. So why is this important. I have three bags that fill in for the BOB while I'm upgrading these to the same standard. The good news these are good REI ones so not a step down in quality but they are not uniform which is one of the things I'm trying to fix by standardization on ALICE packs.

So as deployed. What is the weight ?

Right now? 30 LBs, looking to lighten the load however...

Back at it.
Got a good deal on the last 2 needed Molle shoulder straps. So when they arrive all packs will be standardized:

ALICE packs
ALICE frames
MOLLE II shoulder straps
MOLLE II Waist band

Next will be getting 6 more of the compression sacks listed up thread.

Likely will need three 1967 sleeping bag carriers as well.


Additionally each will have a camouflage tarp with pre attached 1150 paracord for tents/shelter

Thinking further ahead will be packing all the sand and a "inventory sheet" listing what goes where.

I've tested these out a bunch of times and they ride well. The one for my wife is complete and she handles it well.

As a next step I may buy one MOLLE plastic frame to see if it works with the setup. I've seen then as low as $15 so not that much of a risk if they don't work.

Still mulling the camel pack locations, likely a winter project to place in the void space behind the back as previously discussed.

They're all looking good!

For those who might not be aware, very good series of articles here listing how a soldier modified his ALICE packs over the decades: 

https://soldiersystems.net/2015/09/28/the-baldwin-files-alice-pack-trilogy-part-1-of-3/

https://soldiersystems.net/2015/10/08/the-baldwin-articles-alice-pack-trilogy-part-2-of-3/

https://soldiersystems.net/2015/10/14/the-baldwin-articles-alice-pack-trilogy-part-3-of-3/

To me this was very insightful as it mirrors a lot of what many of us have done.

By this weekend I'll have the packs all standardized as mentioned above, but the Molle II or FILBE frames are interesting. Does anyone know if either will fit a medium ALICE? All the articles and forums I've found only mention the large.

If so for around $40-60 for all four, I might even hit a sweeter spot with my setups and shave off the weight of the LC-2 frames.

Another change in making is eliminating the top bag by repacking everything. I'm linking that profile better. Just need to work on the setup. That will still mean three more 1967 sleeping bag carriers for the other three packs but that is what it is.

All parts for the packs have arrived and working on assembly. I expect by this weekend all four will be ready to go sans the following:
2 compression sacks for sleeping bags
3 more M1967 sleeping bag carriers

Plan is to get the sacks first then the carriers as they pop up for sale.

ETA: just like that got a good deal on three M1967 carriers

Home stretch now.

- 2 sleeping bag carriers orderd
- last 4 parachute buckles ordered.

Now its just attach and fill the bags.

1 more MRE for my daughter and son's load out too but that's next week.

Got oics of your final results? Still very interested in what you came up. A pricelist would be cool too. The advantage of your loadout is it might be slightly cheap. 

Quote from: Moab on January 17, 2023, 07:22:23 PMGot oics of your final results? Still very interested in what you came up. A pricelist would be cool too. The advantage of your loadout is it might be slightly cheap.

Probably a good thing to do to tie it all together. What I'll do is take the average of it as some packs cost more some less.

Last parts is a few more MREs and four rain covers searching that out now.

Quote from: Ghost on January 19, 2023, 01:45:36 PM

Quote from: Moab on January 17, 2023, 07:22:23 PMGot oics of your final results? Still very interested in what you came up. A pricelist would be cool too. The advantage of your loadout is it might be slightly cheap.

Probably a good thing to do to tie it all together. What I'll do is take the average of it as some packs cost more some less.

Last parts is a few more MREs and four rain covers searching that out now.

I got an unused large alice last summer for $50(?). Or something ridiculously cheap. I saw it on offerup back east. And couldn't pass it up. Brand new.

I just saw pack covers some place on sale. Can't remember though. What color and what size? 

Quote from: Moab on January 17, 2023, 07:22:23 PMGot pics of your final results? Still very interested in what you came up. A pricelist would be cool too. The advantage of your loadout is it might be slightly cheap.

No pics at the moment, but all packs are more or less done, a few bits of stitching here and there, but they are ready. So with that said, here is where I am with the price list:

• ALICE Pack medium and metal frame; lets say $75 as an average. I say this as I paid $50 for three of the packs with frames. Obviously they are more now, but if you are patient you can find them lower than going prices today.
• MOLLE II straps- this is even better than the waist belt IMO. $20 on eBay.
• MOLLE II waist band- makes the pack even better. $15 on eBay
• Parachute buckles- this is a necessary evil as lets be honest the metal clasps/hardware sucks. After some misadventures of trying to buy in bulk online I just went with ordering them through Joann's Fabrics online. I got a good deal on some last fall, but lets go with the actual price: $5 each and you need 9 of them! so $45 for buckles total. NOTE: I didn't swap out the metal on the internal metal clasp on the upper pocket.
• 1100 Paracord- $8 for 30 feet so divide it by 4 is $2. Used for the map cover opening; handy way to open as well as have some small sections of paracord.
• Bank line for the eyelets on the back, had a big spool, so maybe $1.

Optional Extras:

• M1967 Sleeping bag carriers got three for $20 and the other for $10 so $7.50 ea. I went this route as each has a rolled up (as in around the sleeping bag- a fairly sturdy mil-spec cammo tarp) inside the compression sacks. I cut 1150 paracord to make pre-made ropes for attaching to the ground stakes. Each pack has that as a tent along with a paracord for tying between trees. Where I am it's highly unlikely that one couldn't set it up that way. Not perfect but the ultimate goal here is to keep the compression sacks, but swap out the current sleeping backs with ultra light or Tac bivies. Oh I did swap out the metal hardware there too so it requires 2 more parachute buckles each.
• Compression sack for the sleeping bag. As noted up thread I got some good ones off Amazon for $20 each.
• Molle II mag pouches- got 5 for $20; so say $5 for each pack. On my pack which is more modified I'm carrying 2 pouches in total so I've got the ability for four extra mags on the bag. My chest rig (current has pouches for three) and I'm looking to see what I can carry on my mini 14 itself (so basically 8 total mags with one or two on the butt-stock and one in the rifle). For me this is more than enough as my doctrinal idea is avoiding firefights post SHTF at all costs. Now I realize there can never be "enough" ammo but there are limitations if for no other reason then what can be carried.

Total cost for each pack? $190.50

Next improvement: rigging the carrying of water in camel back setup; at the moment it still routed through the center exterior pouch. I still like the idea of it in the void space of the pack between the back but need to tinker a bit.

Lastly, I've found some decent rain covers on Amazon, going to order one and see how it goes.

Quote from: Ghost on January 24, 2023, 07:24:51 PM

Quote from: Moab on January 17, 2023, 07:22:23 PMGot pics of your final results? Still very interested in what you came up. A pricelist would be cool too. The advantage of your loadout is it might be slightly cheap.

No pics at the moment, but all packs are more or less done, a few bits of stitching here and there, but they are ready. So with that said, here is where I am with the price list:

• ALICE Pack medium and metal frame; lets say $75 as an average. I say this as I paid $50 for three of the packs with frames. Obviously they are more now, but if you are patient you can find them lower than going prices today.
• MOLLE II straps- this is even better than the waist belt IMO. $20 on eBay.
• MOLLE II waist band- makes the pack even better. $15 on eBay
• Parachute buckles- this is a necessary evil as lets be honest the metal clasps/hardware sucks. After some misadventures of trying to by in bulk online I just went with ordering them through Joann's Fabrics online. I got a good deal on some last fall but lets go with the actual price: $5 each and you need 9 of them! so $40 for buckles total. NOTE: I didn't swap out the metal for the internal metal clasp on the upper pocket.
• 1100 Paracord- $8 for 30 feet so divide it by 4 is $2. Used for the map cover opening; handy way to open as well as have some small sections of paracord.
• Bank line for the eyelets on the back, had a big spool, so maybe $1.

Optional Extras:

• M1967 Sleeping bag carriers got three for $20 and the other for $10 so $7.50 ea. I went this route as each has a rolled up (as in around the sleeping bag- a fairly sturdy mil-spec cammo tarp) inside the compression sacks. I cut 1150 paracord to make pre-made ropes for attaching to the ground stakes. Each pack has that as a tent along with a paracord for tying between trees. Where I am it's highly unlikely that one couldn't set it up that way. Not perfect but the ultimate goal here is to keep the compression sacks, but swap out the current sleeping backs with ultra light or Tac bivies. Oh I did swap out the metal hardware there too so it requires 2 more parachute buckles each.
• Compression sack for the sleeping bag. As noted up thread I got some good ones off Amazon for $20 each.
• Molle II mag pouches- got 5 for $20; so say $5 for each pack. On my pack which is more modified I'm carrying 2 pouches in total so I've got the ability for four extra mags on the bag. My chest rig (current has pouches for three) and I'm looking to see what I can carry on my mini 14 itself (so basically 8 total mags with one or two on the butt-stock and one in the rifle). For me this is more than enough as my doctrinal idea is avoiding firefights post SHTF at all costs. Now I realize there can never be "enough" ammo but there are limitations if for no other reason then what can be carried.

Total cost for each pack? $185.50

Next improvement: rigging the carrying of water in camel back setup; at the moment it still routed through the center exterior pouch. I still like the idea of it in the void space of the pack between the back but need to tinker a bit.

Lastly, I've found some decent rain covers on Amazon, going to order one and see how it goes.

Good deal man! 

Note: Corrected the cost upthread ^

Starting to reevaluate the load out and how it's packed (mine that is).

For water my thought is I'm going create a bag that will hold the water bladder in the voice space as discussed. I have someone who has a sewing machine and I have a lot of spare (smaller) parachute buckles. Should be easy to rig up if my searching for a camel pack solution proves fruitless.

MREs for all four packs have been field stripped, extras added etc. 

Lastly- waste not want not! All the stuff left over from the MREs? Lots of crackers, jelly and the like. Perfect for four GHB. Like I did with the MREs I'm adding energy bars and placing everything inside the MRE packaging (saved then all) labeling the contents within and taping them up the same way. 

So one of those duh moments regarding water... carry the water bladder in the radio pouch. I thought someone had to have thought this out and sure enough posts pack to 2012 on various sites. So one problem solved.

Regarding the sleep system setup: I've been watching Gray Beard Green Beret's YT channel. Lots of good stuff. He rolls with the SF roll and a fairly expensive bivy. As the suggestions up thread and I think that is where I'm going with this. I can take the somewhat bulk sleeping bags I'm using now and instead of them in the compression sacks the woobie, bivy, shelter cover, stakes and paracord can all go in there and cut some weight. I've already lighted my load by the shovel going to someone elses pack; in place I'll be attaching my hultafors axe to the side.

So even though I've largely "finished" the packs my thoughts are turning to the Molle  II frames. Obviously people have done this prior to me and I'm researching best path forward.

I can get four for $20 each, but want to make sure I get the right ones. From what I can tell they only come in one size as they are adjustable?

Found ones for $4.99, shipping was way more! Got one to see how it works. If it pans out I'll order three more and perhaps sell the current ALICE frames.

Just need to check YouTube, even better solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWOFIeZlkd8

So with this (last?) upgrade it will be:

• Down East 1606MC frame
• ALICE Pack
• MOLLE 2 Shoulder straps
• MOLLE 2 Waist band
• M1967 Sleeping bag carrier- looking at the frame it appears this will fit even better to the bottom in terms of attachment points

I have all of the above, just need to buy the frames.

Transfer my paracord handle to the new frame and in business with an even lighter pack. Cost $42 a frame.

Anyone want to buy four ALICE frames? ;)

Assuming I don't sell the frame the cost for each would be $234.50; say I sell them low,- $35 each. I'm looking at $200 for packs fully customized to my needs. As it is right now the frames I have are all in good shape; this is simply kicking it up a notch.

Continuing this my next goal is to reduce the weight of the setup by 10lb and get it around 20. I realize I'm unlikely to get there but I'm going with the same principal as when I built my house. Realtor gave me some good advice: add everything in then take stuff away; don't do the reverse.

The new frame will help and so will the sleep system. I like how I carry everything with the compression sack and M1967 sleeping bag carrier modified with parachute buckles. On the 1606-AC frame the sleep system it's going to work even better in terms attachment points.

I still use the ground mat noted up thread but currently using a camping 40 degree bag as a stop gap.

So with that in mind I've been watching a lot of Graybeard Green berets stuff. So bivy/ranger burrito it is.

As I noted I sleep hot. So ground mat (inflatable) really low to the ground- but four seasons; woobie, tac bivy and a few more layers. Likely this is going to be enough for me. I'll skip the wool and possibly look at the causality blanket mixed in.

So while I'm modifying the pack going to get the bivy. That should go a long way to weight reduction and space.

Plan will be to test it out in spring, summer and fall. Take stock then try in the winter.

So... weighed everything...38.5 lbs :headbang:

Plan is a sound one, see what I can get rid of.

Ditching the sleeping bag, and go with the Ranger roll? Dropped off four LBs of the bat.

Shovel is next likely to go. Useful but not worth the weight (most likely); axe is far more useful IMO.

Frame- got the new 1606-AC frame but it seems like the weight is the same with the ALICE frame. Need to hook it up and test.

Ah. Ghost. Beating your head against the wall again I see. ;)

"Adding everything. And then taking away what you don't need." Is not the best advice. I'd fire your realtor. Lol. Kidding of course.

There's a common philosophy in backpacking and bugging out. Before you buy anything, select all the gear you think you need, add up its weight, select gear again, cause it will be to heavy (lol), then buy a backpack that it will all fit into.

You've done the opposite.

Again, I've been down this road before. As many of us have. Its painful. I got a great deal on a molle ii rucksack. And quickly filled it with military surplus. It quickly outweighed a 5th grader.

Even if you had started with a better fitting and easier to carry civilian backpack. You'd have cut 5lbs right off the bat. A medium alice is 9lbs and a large is 11lbs. An inexpensive civilian pack will weigh 5lbs or less.

I think that grey ghost green beret you follow. I like him alot. Has switched to ultralight gear as well. Including a civilian backpack.

I don't know how much your sleep system weighs. But a 5lb Kelty synthetic bag can be had for less than $140. Far less if you bought used or last years model.

It sounds like your now reduced to a sleeping bag and bivy. Out of weight concerns. A bivy, tarp, sleeping bag is a good combo. A burrito or ranger roll is not. Thise are meant for short missions. Not long term survival.

A tent and sleeping bag is better:

A USGI bivy is 2.3lbs. An average nylon 10x10 tarp is around 2lbs. More for a cheap one. Up to 4lbs. And less for silnylon. Maybe 1lb.

That's 9.3lbs+ for an average cost bivy, tarp, bag combo. Thats if your bag weighs 5lbs.

Or you could get a bag and tent for around 10lbs. A cheap 2 person tent is around $150. Added to your 5lb sleeping bag. That's 10lbs. But if split between 2 people that's 7.5lbs per person. And you have a complete rain proof shelter. For less weight than your 9.3lb bivy, bag and tarp combo. And probably for around the same cost.

I don't see mention of which sleeping bag your using. Just the m1967 carrier. How much does your bag weigh?

Agree with ditching the etool. Great for the vehicle. Not for backpacking. Neither is an axe. Buy a good fulltang knife you can baton with if need be. And a lightweight folding saw. That will cut additional pounds. And you can cut a tree apart with a saw just as fast as with an axe.  And it weighs far less.

The mre's are a fun supplement. Many of the items are tasty. But they are impractical for hiking. They weigh far to much. And are meant for mechanized military units. That can resupply large weights of food. They are also constipating. Not a good combo for humping heavy loads. There is a reason you never see a backpacker - long distance or short - carrying mre's.

Backpack a few weekends and you will be changing this out for freeze dried meals that are more vegetable heavy. Or that you can at least supplement with more roughage. There are many makes of excellent freeze dried food. Backpackers Pantry make affordable options. As do Mountain House and other cottage makers. There is one in Texas that is especially good.

Add up your food, ammo and water? How much do those weigh alone? Every ounce you save on the big three - shelter, sleep system and pack. Are more ounces of the most crucial items - food, ammo and water - that you can carry.

How much do your guns weigh?

What raingear are you carrying?

I applaud your effort. I honestly do. Its cool to see all this historical military gear being put to use. I carried an alice pack for a long time. I still have several as they were stupidly cheap or I bought them before I knew better. And just haven't taken the time or soent the money to replace them.

But my 5lb Gregory(?) Civilian pack is something I can carry for far longer. With much greater ease. Because the technology has outpaced the Alice 20 years ago. For around the same price. And less if you don't mind used or last years gear. Check out gearx, campsaver, rei outlet, sierra trading post or any of the many other discount backpacking sites. Look at the cost and the weights.

Open yourself up to civilian gear. Special Forces has, and some of their civilian selections have helped greatly improve outdoor gear. And it doesn't have to be bright orange or blue or neon green. I hate those colors too. Lol.

Your back will forgive you. Your wife and children will love you. And all of you will survive alot longer. Because you will be lighter and faster. And able to carry more life sustaining items like food, ammo and water.

Standard military gear is by and large meant for a mechanized military. Getting trucked in, flown in and out. And when not its humped by 20 yr olds with advanced physical training. Because all that gear is not meant for backpacking. Its meant to be thrown off a truck or out of a helicoptor many times over.

Even if your shelter, sleep system and pack weigh 5lbs each. Like with civilian gear. Thats 15lbs. Which even then doesn't leave much room for everything else you need. Starting from a deficit of 10lbs each in military gear is 30lbs. How much food, ammo and water does that leave? How far is your family going to get before they start ditching essential supplies outside of their shelter, sleep system and pack?

The AT trail is littered with gear people throw out of their packs after a day or two on the trail. And those are ultralighters.

EDIT:

https://www.campsaver.com/kelty-coyote-65.html

https://www.campsaver.com/kelty-coyote-105.html

I've got a couple ALICE packs that I did some of the Hellcat mods quite a while back. I had an REI hiking backpack, and wanted something cheaper to sit around packed as a BOB while I used my nice pack for camping.

Funny now how much more ALICE packs are going for. Back then I paid $20 for a large ALICE with frame, and later I got another with frame for $5. I actually got a third large ALICE with frame for something like $5-$10, but I'm pretty sure I gave that one away (or maybe I just can't find it under all my other junk).

Way back then people were super excited about Hellcat packs. I got the Down East 1606AC frames. For some reason at the time the MOLLE shoulder straps seemed super expensive back then, so I got some other ones someone on ZS recommended that were made by Tactical Assault Gear. I got both TAG and MOLLE waist belts. I put the TAG belt on one pack and the MOLLE on another.

The ALICE pack always rode way too high for me. The Down East frame shifted it down a little ways, and the TAG belt rode further down than the ALICE and MOLLE belts. With the new frame and the TAG belt it was actually down on my hips, but annoyingly still just a little higher than I would like. I did keep the MOLLE waist belt on one as I could comfortably ride my bicycle while wearing it.

I ended up using the ALICE pack to haul groceries back when I didn't have a car. I carried some pretty heavy loads, although usually only for a mile or two. One time I had it nearly full of containers of liquids. It was so heavy that I struggled to get it up off the ground. It took several tries, but I was able to do some sort of shotput spin and with a grunt jerk it up and onto a trash can, and with it resting on there I was able to get it onto my back. All the other shoppers were looking at me like I was a crazy person.

I might get the MOLLE shoulder straps now that they seem to be going for so cheap and give them a shot.

With how much money these packs are going for now, I might need to sell one or both of them. I think I'll keep at least one for sentimental reasons and LARPing purposes.

I got the shelves for the original ALICE frames and my plan was to use them with the leftover straps and waist belts for hunting packs, but I never got around to it.

Edit: I just checked and my large ALICE with the Down East frame, TAG shoulder straps and MOLLE waist belt weighs 6.2 lbs.

I was unable to find a shelf for mine, so I got some thin wood.  The frame is zip tied to the pack frame. 

The extra wires are from where I had a camera that steered with the front wheels.  Also had a mic and transmitter.  I also had a smoke detector and a carbon monoxide detector I could stick on it, but it would have to be pretty bad being at ground level.

I have one with a medium pack on it.

I bought 3 frames at $5 each at a gun show that I need to find straps for.

I might have messed up. I was doing a surplus order and wanted to add some of the MOLLE shoulder straps to try out. I noticed that a whole MOLLE backpack wasn't much more expensive than just the shoulder straps, so I went ahead and ordered that. Afterwords I realized that it was the three day assault pack I ordered and the straps people are using on ALICE packs are probably from the bigger MOLLE packs.

Oh well, I guess I got another small backpack. It was only $30 shipped so it's not a disaster.

I have the Spec-Ops Brand Recon Ruck Ultra which is a modern take on the ALICE pack with PALS webbing. Only hangups I had were the lack of a storm flap and no webbing on the collar, unlike the original ALICE pack with webbing there. The pack has been discontinued several times by the company for reasons I can only surmise is the owners hate the design, but it's enough of a fan favorite, it keeps getting small production runs here and there. I need to upgrade the shoulder straps and add webbing to the bottom so I can loop a sleeping bag carrier to it, but I've otherwise been very happy with it when mated to a DEI ALICE frame and BDS kidney belt, which has been out of production for years. I think the design by Fireforce USA is overall better, but it looks like their eCommerce site has been down for almost two years and I have no idea if they're out of business now or not. If anyone knows, please tell me.

https://i.imgur.com/y5fbGwq.jpeg

I think I solved the water issue, turns out it was fairly simple: USMC water bladder sack, snaps right to the sides. Just need to decide which water bladder and tubing system.

Got the sack off of eBay. Getting one to test out.

Last thing is to fully test with one of the USMC Alice frame that are plastic. I have one, and it works well. In the end I have basically MOLLE everything else except the frame and ruck itself Very soon it's just the ruck.

As I get older I'm looking at the Greybeard Green Berret videos more. While it would be great to think a very large ALICE or MOLLE would work (and likely does for some) that is a lot to haul. Strip down and only what will be needed. Once I re-strap the plastic frame its serious number crunching in terms of weight.

ETA: it's re-strapped a rides well. Just need to add or transfer over the paracord handle and add the water pouch when it arrives.

Quote from: Moab on March 29, 2023, 01:58:30 PMAh. Ghost. Beating your head against the wall again I see. ;)

"Adding everything. And then taking away what you don't need." Is not the best advice. I'd fire your realtor. Lol. Kidding of course.

There's a common philosophy in backpacking and bugging out. Before you buy anything, select all the gear you think you need, add up its weight, select gear again, cause it will be to heavy (lol), then buy a backpack that it will all fit into.

You've done the opposite.

Again, I've been down this road before. As many of us have. Its painful. I got a great deal on a molle ii rucksack. And quickly filled it with military surplus. It quickly outweighed a 5th grader.

Even if you had started with a better fitting and easier to carry civilian backpack. You'd have cut 5lbs right off the bat. A medium alice is 9lbs and a large is 11lbs. An inexpensive civilian pack will weigh 5lbs or less.

I think that grey ghost green beret you follow. I like him alot. Has switched to ultralight gear as well. Including a civilian backpack.

I don't know how much your sleep system weighs. But a 5lb Kelty synthetic bag can be had for less than $140. Far less if you bought used or last years model.

It sounds like your now reduced to a sleeping bag and bivy. Out of weight concerns. A bivy, tarp, sleeping bag is a good combo. A burrito or ranger roll is not. Thise are meant for short missions. Not long term survival.

A tent and sleeping bag is better:

A USGI bivy is 2.3lbs. An average nylon 10x10 tarp is around 2lbs. More for a cheap one. Up to 4lbs. And less for silnylon. Maybe 1lb.

That's 9.3lbs+ for an average cost bivy, tarp, bag combo. Thats if your bag weighs 5lbs.

Or you could get a bag and tent for around 10lbs. A cheap 2 person tent is around $150. Added to your 5lb sleeping bag. That's 10lbs. But if split between 2 people that's 7.5lbs per person. And you have a complete rain proof shelter. For less weight than your 9.3lb bivy, bag and tarp combo. And probably for around the same cost.

I don't see mention of which sleeping bag your using. Just the m1967 carrier. How much does your bag weigh?

Agree with ditching the etool. Great for the vehicle. Not for backpacking. Neither is an axe. Buy a good fulltang knife you can baton with if need be. And a lightweight folding saw. That will cut additional pounds. And you can cut a tree apart with a saw just as fast as with an axe.  And it weighs far less.

The mre's are a fun supplement. Many of the items are tasty. But they are impractical for hiking. They weigh far to much. And are meant for mechanized military units. That can resupply large weights of food. They are also constipating. Not a good combo for humping heavy loads. There is a reason you never see a backpacker - long distance or short - carrying mre's.

Backpack a few weekends and you will be changing this out for freeze dried meals that are more vegetable heavy. Or that you can at least supplement with more roughage. There are many makes of excellent freeze dried food. Backpackers Pantry make affordable options. As do Mountain House and other cottage makers. There is one in Texas that is especially good.

Add up your food, ammo and water? How much do those weigh alone? Every ounce you save on the big three - shelter, sleep system and pack. Are more ounces of the most crucial items - food, ammo and water - that you can carry.

How much do your guns weigh?

What raingear are you carrying?

I applaud your effort. I honestly do. Its cool to see all this historical military gear being put to use. I carried an alice pack for a long time. I still have several as they were stupidly cheap or I bought them before I knew better. And just haven't taken the time or soent the money to replace them.

But my 5lb Gregory(?) Civilian pack is something I can carry for far longer. With much greater ease. Because the technology has outpaced the Alice 20 years ago. For around the same price. And less if you don't mind used or last years gear. Check out gearx, campsaver, rei outlet, sierra trading post or any of the many other discount backpacking sites. Look at the cost and the weights.

Open yourself up to civilian gear. Special Forces has, and some of their civilian selections have helped greatly improve outdoor gear. And it doesn't have to be bright orange or blue or neon green. I hate those colors too. Lol.

Your back will forgive you. Your wife and children will love you. And all of you will survive alot longer. Because you will be lighter and faster. And able to carry more life sustaining items like food, ammo and water.

Standard military gear is by and large meant for a mechanized military. Getting trucked in, flown in and out. And when not its humped by 20 yr olds with advanced physical training. Because all that gear is not meant for backpacking. Its meant to be thrown off a truck or out of a helicoptor many times over.

Even if your shelter, sleep system and pack weigh 5lbs each. Like with civilian gear. Thats 15lbs. Which even then doesn't leave much room for everything else you need. Starting from a deficit of 10lbs each in military gear is 30lbs. How much food, ammo and water does that leave? How far is your family going to get before they start ditching essential supplies outside of their shelter, sleep system and pack?

The AT trail is littered with gear people throw out of their packs after a day or two on the trail. And those are ultralighters.

EDIT:

https://www.campsaver.com/kelty-coyote-65.html

https://www.campsaver.com/kelty-coyote-105.html

So thoughts here I hadn't responded to at the time (just mulling stuff) and thanks for the feedback and links.

I'm not against civilian gear at all, what I'm doing is mixing and matching. Good example is MREs. I tore them all apart and added my own stuff and removed others, blending what I want and say my daughter (all her stuff is actually freeze dried. And unintended benefit is the MRE pouches? They make a really good outer package to place all the other stuff in.

For the "ready" type stuff in pouches rather than end of day meal? These types: https://shop.rxbar.com/shop/protein-bars.html

Price is decent, decent taste and very portable.

I'm also doing this in stages.

My thought as I've outlined in the thread is doing this with a baseline and then swapping? Why? It would be great to by all top-of-the-line gear right off the bat. While I'm not poor (or crazy rich) I need to be sensible about it.

Consider the scenario, SHTF and world goes to Hell.

"Oh well, I don't have the absolute right gear so I better not bring my current sleeping bag and system" Sarcasm obviously, but the point stands. I'm of the opinion that its better to have something rather than nothing.

So with all that said I've been looking at the advice about the lightweight sleep systems. Absolutely agree, that is one area I can cut down weight. For my own self, I'm starting to sleep with even lighter stuff as I'm sleeping even hotter these days. My inflatable bed roll? Can't live without that thing, light and it folds up tightly in its bivy sack.

Another is getting rid of the aluminum frame of the ALICE, At this stage? The only thing ALICE is the ruck itself which is what I'm going for. Very much looking forward to the water pouch on the side, very accessible and doesn't "waste" one of the three main, exterior pouches.


So where I stand as of now?

• Down East 1606MC frame
• ALICE Pack medium
• MOLLE 2 Shoulder straps
• MOLLE 2 Waist band
• M1967 Sleeping bag carrier- This thing fits perfect on the bottom of a Down East frame. Couple this with the compression sacks I got off Amazon and the carrier part is well settled. Now its time to get the ultralight sleeping bags to go inside.

Lastly on the back front? Just had a procedure done, went from daily pain to zero pain, woot!

Quote from: Ghost on September 22, 2024, 09:55:31 AM

Quote from: Moab on March 29, 2023, 01:58:30 PMAh. Ghost. Beating your head against the wall again I see. ;)

"Adding everything. And then taking away what you don't need." Is not the best advice. I'd fire your realtor. Lol. Kidding of course.

There's a common philosophy in backpacking and bugging out. Before you buy anything, select all the gear you think you need, add up its weight, select gear again, cause it will be to heavy (lol), then buy a backpack that it will all fit into.

You've done the opposite.

Again, I've been down this road before. As many of us have. Its painful. I got a great deal on a molle ii rucksack. And quickly filled it with military surplus. It quickly outweighed a 5th grader.

Even if you had started with a better fitting and easier to carry civilian backpack. You'd have cut 5lbs right off the bat. A medium alice is 9lbs and a large is 11lbs. An inexpensive civilian pack will weigh 5lbs or less.

I think that grey ghost green beret you follow. I like him alot. Has switched to ultralight gear as well. Including a civilian backpack.

I don't know how much your sleep system weighs. But a 5lb Kelty synthetic bag can be had for less than $140. Far less if you bought used or last years model.

It sounds like your now reduced to a sleeping bag and bivy. Out of weight concerns. A bivy, tarp, sleeping bag is a good combo. A burrito or ranger roll is not. Thise are meant for short missions. Not long term survival.

A tent and sleeping bag is better:

A USGI bivy is 2.3lbs. An average nylon 10x10 tarp is around 2lbs. More for a cheap one. Up to 4lbs. And less for silnylon. Maybe 1lb.

That's 9.3lbs+ for an average cost bivy, tarp, bag combo. Thats if your bag weighs 5lbs.

Or you could get a bag and tent for around 10lbs. A cheap 2 person tent is around $150. Added to your 5lb sleeping bag. That's 10lbs. But if split between 2 people that's 7.5lbs per person. And you have a complete rain proof shelter. For less weight than your 9.3lb bivy, bag and tarp combo. And probably for around the same cost.

I don't see mention of which sleeping bag your using. Just the m1967 carrier. How much does your bag weigh?

Agree with ditching the etool. Great for the vehicle. Not for backpacking. Neither is an axe. Buy a good fulltang knife you can baton with if need be. And a lightweight folding saw. That will cut additional pounds. And you can cut a tree apart with a saw just as fast as with an axe.  And it weighs far less.

The mre's are a fun supplement. Many of the items are tasty. But they are impractical for hiking. They weigh far to much. And are meant for mechanized military units. That can resupply large weights of food. They are also constipating. Not a good combo for humping heavy loads. There is a reason you never see a backpacker - long distance or short - carrying mre's.

Backpack a few weekends and you will be changing this out for freeze dried meals that are more vegetable heavy. Or that you can at least supplement with more roughage. There are many makes of excellent freeze dried food. Backpackers Pantry make affordable options. As do Mountain House and other cottage makers. There is one in Texas that is especially good.

Add up your food, ammo and water? How much do those weigh alone? Every ounce you save on the big three - shelter, sleep system and pack. Are more ounces of the most crucial items - food, ammo and water - that you can carry.

How much do your guns weigh?

What raingear are you carrying?

I applaud your effort. I honestly do. Its cool to see all this historical military gear being put to use. I carried an alice pack for a long time. I still have several as they were stupidly cheap or I bought them before I knew better. And just haven't taken the time or soent the money to replace them.

But my 5lb Gregory(?) Civilian pack is something I can carry for far longer. With much greater ease. Because the technology has outpaced the Alice 20 years ago. For around the same price. And less if you don't mind used or last years gear. Check out gearx, campsaver, rei outlet, sierra trading post or any of the many other discount backpacking sites. Look at the cost and the weights.

Open yourself up to civilian gear. Special Forces has, and some of their civilian selections have helped greatly improve outdoor gear. And it doesn't have to be bright orange or blue or neon green. I hate those colors too. Lol.

Your back will forgive you. Your wife and children will love you. And all of you will survive alot longer. Because you will be lighter and faster. And able to carry more life sustaining items like food, ammo and water.

Standard military gear is by and large meant for a mechanized military. Getting trucked in, flown in and out. And when not its humped by 20 yr olds with advanced physical training. Because all that gear is not meant for backpacking. Its meant to be thrown off a truck or out of a helicoptor many times over.

Even if your shelter, sleep system and pack weigh 5lbs each. Like with civilian gear. Thats 15lbs. Which even then doesn't leave much room for everything else you need. Starting from a deficit of 10lbs each in military gear is 30lbs. How much food, ammo and water does that leave? How far is your family going to get before they start ditching essential supplies outside of their shelter, sleep system and pack?

The AT trail is littered with gear people throw out of their packs after a day or two on the trail. And those are ultralighters.

EDIT:

https://www.campsaver.com/kelty-coyote-65.html

https://www.campsaver.com/kelty-coyote-105.html

So thoughts here I hadn't responded to at the time (just mulling stuff) and thanks for the feedback and links.

I'm not against civilian gear at all, what I'm doing is mixing and matching. Good example is MREs. I tore them all apart and added my own stuff and removed others, blending what I want and say my daughter (all her stuff is actually freeze dried. And unintended benefit is the MRE pouches? They make a really good outer package to place all the other stuff in.

For the "ready" type stuff in pouches rather than end of day meal? These types: https://shop.rxbar.com/shop/protein-bars.html

Price is decent, decent taste and very portable.

I'm also doing this in stages.

My thought as I've outlined in the thread is doing this with a baseline and then swapping? Why? It would be great to by all top-of-the-line gear right off the bat. While I'm not poor (or crazy rich) I need to be sensible about it.

Consider the scenario, SHTF and world goes to Hell.

"Oh well, I don't have the absolute right gear so I better not bring my current sleeping bag and system" Sarcasm obviously, but the point stands. I'm of the opinion that its better to have something rather than nothing.

So with all that said I've been looking at the advice about the lightweight sleep systems. Absolutely agree, that is one area I can cut down weight. For my own self, I'm starting to sleep with even lighter stuff as I'm sleeping even hotter these days. My inflatable bed roll? Can't live without that thing, light and it folds up tightly in its bivy sack.

Another is getting rid of the aluminum frame of the ALICE, At this stage? The only thing ALICE is the ruck itself which is what I'm going for. Very much looking forward to the water pouch on the side, very accessible and doesn't "waste" one of the three main, exterior pouches.


So where I stand as of now?

• Down East 1606MC frame
• ALICE Pack medium
• MOLLE 2 Shoulder straps
• MOLLE 2 Waist band
• M1967 Sleeping bag carrier- This thing fits perfect on the bottom of a Down East frame. Couple this with the compression sacks I got off Amazon and the carrier part is well settled. Now its time to get the ultralight sleeping bags to go inside.

Lastly on the back front? Just had a procedure done, went from daily pain to zero pain, woot!

Hope your doing better. Seriously. I've had more than a few major surgeries. My thoughts are with you.

My point is your spending as much or more on surplus gear. Which is not as available or cheap anymore. As you would on civilian. And Alice gear is way heavier and very uncomfortable. The MSS goes for $300+ now. And weighs 10lbs. You can get a better down bag for $150-$200 that is sub 5lbs. Those are not small numbers. You could sell those Alice packs for $150+ which are probably 10lbs too. And get a much more comfortable civ pack for $150 or less that is 5lbs or under. That's 10lbs and your saving money. 

And Alice gear is very uncomfortable. 

ESPECIALLY if you remove the frame. Take the frame off and mount a full Alice on your back. Without the frame it turns onto a big round ball. And that big round ball centers on the middle of your back. Just standing there your going to feel how uncomfortable it is. "Rucking" is a fitness trend. Not something you want to do carrying a hiking or Bugout load. It means holding all that weight on your shoulders only.

This is REI outlet. Not even close to the cheapest backpack source. But see what you can get for $150 and 5lbs in a 65L plus backpack? 

You need to go to an REI and get fitted for a pack. It's free. Just ask them to fit you. They will show you how to adjust it. And where the shoulder pads and waist belt should sit. And how that distributes the weight on your back.

Take your family with you too. An Alice is the last thing you want.

https://www.rei.com/c/backpacking-packs/f/scd-deals

Sorry forgot to mention I use the REI outlet all the time. I was able to get a used pack and have experimented with it.

On the ALICE front? It's barely even an Alice any more ;)

One area where I'm also tinkering with is food. I've used some freeze dried before and agree it's a great way to reduce weight over MREs even field stripped.

But what to do with those MREs? Waste not want not. If we have to bug out overland on foot I've gone back to my idea of jet fighter drop tanks.

Those MREs go on the outdoor deer cart, get eaten first and if they need to be abandoned or the cart? No loss as I'm looking at this in stages. This has the advantage of meals for each person already set and packaged up tightly and disposable.

Based on where I live I could literally four wheel in my truck out through my backyard. Secondary location is 23 miles away on 25 acres. If we had to get to it on foot I've got several routes to go where the cart would be ideal.

So in terms of doctrine for me? Shed weight as we go on purpose by consuming the stuff we can afford to lose and keep the bulky stuff at hand, but not on me. If we had to abandon it fully? Again I'm factoring for that.

Granted, we have to haul it, but so far it's less than a male deer which I've managed myself (150-200 lbs) and I'm not planning on hauling anything close to that weight. The cart itself is light but I'm thinking about getting one with wider wheels.

Lastly researching the right ultralight sleeping backs as another area to reduce weight.

Already ditching tools like a collapsible shovel, ok for  cart and INCH box but not to lug around.

Quote from: tirls on July 08, 2022, 05:04:12 AMI´ve got my axe secured with an ice axe loop if I need to take it somewhere. A simple loop at the bottom of the pack, feed the axe through from the top with the edge facing inward until the head catches on the loop and flip the handle toward the top. Secure the end of the handle with either another loop or carabiner. The axe sits vertically and if you don´t need it you can use the loop to attach other things. It´s a very lightweight option and very secure.
I like your solution with the sleeping bag attachment, might need to nick that.

Quote from: Ghost on July 07, 2022, 05:43:18 PMAn important closing thought: what to do in the interim? I think something that gets missed sometimes in prepping is "stop gaps" is it great to have top notch gear in everything? Sure, and damn expensive too. Sometimes you have to have interim measures in place, whether cheap or moderate or perhaps not even what you want. So why is this important. I have three bags that fill in for the BOB while I'm upgrading these to the same standard. The good news these are good REI ones so not a step down in quality but they are not uniform which is one of the things I'm trying to fix by standardization on ALICE packs.

You´re clearly good with modifying gear. Have you tried sewing things yourself? The markup on outdoor gear can be ridiculous. Things like tents and sleeping bags are surprisingly easy to make and often a lot lighter.

Love your idea of uniform packs for everyone.

Revisiting.

I'm getting a sewing machine for free!

This winter I'll be creating 4-6 ultra light sleeping bags.
- I can make them all uniformly the same size.
- I determine the weight.
- I determine the color and materials.

Need to revisit the links for templates now.

This is a huge step forward as I can now control how much my sleep system is going to weight.

For reference:
- Klymet sleeping pads (ultra portable)
- Very tough compression sacks of of Amazon
- M1967 sleeping bag carrier which line up great with a 1606 MC frame. They weight nothing and I swapped everything with fastec buckles.
- getting all weather bives
- making my own sleeping bags.

To add and even better thought. While I can sew somewhat and I am getting a sewing machine for free.

Rather than create a bag completely from scratch. Modify an existing one.

I'm sure some folks have done this. It has the benefit of benefit of quicker to completing the project and I'll be starting from a state where a lot of it is done. Just need to reinforce certain spots, I can add the down I want and modify as needed.

Sewing machine secured for free!

As noted in the "what did you do today to prepare" thread I've got two sleeping bags I'm going to modify for my daughter. They are outdoor bags but not for low temps. 

As a test I popped open a seam to look at the innards. Going to modify them as follows


Plan is as follows:
- get a bulk order of natural down.
- open each section leaving the synthetic material in place as it should help keep the down in place.
- sew back up.

When done I'll have to fairly light but low temp bags for my daughter and wife's bags.

Sleep system will be as follow:
- Klymet inflatable ground mats (all four purchased)
- tarp with paracord ridge lines and titanium stakes (done)
- ultra light bags for my daughter and wife.
- YTBD bags for my son and I.
- aquatech bivies (need four)
- fairly tough compression sacks (already have four)

Only thing I'm not happy with is the M1967 sleeping bag carriers. They attach well for most part. The issue is they are a bit "floppy" when attached to the bottom of the bags. IMO this is an issue of a lack of good attachment points to the bottom of the ALICE. I might just modify the packs with fasted clips now that I have a sewing machine. As far as the M1967s no real loss, each only cost me $40.

Lastly in the future I'm going to be selling all four ALICE frames.

Swapped the last metal ALICE frame. Soon I'll be putting all four up for sale. The way I look at it the cost will pay for 1.5 Aquaquest bivies for the sleep systems.