So my Holosun HE503CU-GR got here three days early. Okay, I bumped the UPS shipping from "SurePost" to regular ground but up until last night it was still showing as scheduled for delivery Tuesday the 10th.
I took the Dagger Defense RDS off my AR and installed the Holosun as far forward on the rail as possible, just ahead of the receiver, and it's working nice there. I can co-witness my BU iron sights perfectly and it's far enough forward that I can pick it up easily with my non-dominant right eye. Yeah, I'm a right-handed guy who is left-eye dominant. RDS have always been my preferred sights but I've had issues picking them up with the right eye, and I'm completely inept at shooting lefty. Using a green sight helps and this one is perfect. Makes me wonder how the gold dot one is.
Getting ready to throw down on a T2... Spuhr or LaRue?
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 07, 2021, 06:32:54 PM
Getting ready to throw down on a T2... Spuhr or LaRue?
Spuhr. No reason other than personal preference.
I picked up a Crimson Trace CTS-25 a few months back and it's currently sitting on my PC9.
I've got a couple minor complaints about it. One being the optic is just slightly canted to the left a bit (doesn't effect function, but it's kind of annoying to look through the lenses and see the optic canted to the left) and the field of view* is kind of small. Especially when the laser emitter sticks out a bit into my line of sight.
I know it's a micro red dot, but it's about the same size as my Bushnell TRS-25 and the field of view* on the TRS-25 is much wider.
It's a good optic despite the minor issues I've had with it.
*I'm not sure what the actual term is. Objective lens ? Viewing hole ?
I've been casually considering the new Vortex 5x prism scope:
(https://i.imgur.com/XoOyVcg.jpg)
The FOV is considerably less than the benchmark 4x ACOG, but the eyebox is also larger and the price of course is considerably less. I don't find 3x to be terribly useful for me so most of the new cheaper prism scopes on the market haven't been very enticing but this one has a high enough magnification and a low enough weight that its a maybe for me. The ebay price is starting to drop below $400, and if it hits $300 I might start thinking more seriously.
The weight is the same as most of the new crop of 3x RDS magnifiers coming out at 10ish oz (like the holosun 3x lots of people are running these days) so a 5x prism with an offset or piggyback RDS would weigh the same but with more magnification and no moving parts (also a more complex reticle and likely more light transmission). I am a bit peeved at the piggyback footprint they chose for this, as I have no interest in any current optic that fits it so an offset holosun 503 is most likely for myself. Having two separate optics rather than an optic/magnifier combo also gives more redundancy, and an etched reticle in case of battery failure (or two battery failures in this case).
Other than the usual problems with having an offset optic, can anyone shoot any holes in this plan? I've mocked it up someone loosely with a traditional tube scope and a cheapo offset mount but have very little trigger time with it so the above thought process is mostly hypothetical.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 08, 2021, 02:55:27 PM
I've been casually considering the new Vortex 5x prism scope:
(https://i.imgur.com/XoOyVcg.jpg)
The FOV is considerably less than the benchmark 4x ACOG, but the eyebox is also larger and the price of course is considerably less. I don't find 3x to be terribly useful for me so most of the new cheaper prism scopes on the market haven't been very enticing but this one has a high enough magnification and a low enough weight that its a maybe for me. The ebay price is starting to drop below $400, and if it hits $300 I might start thinking more seriously.
The weight is the same as most of the new crop of 3x RDS magnifiers coming out at 10ish oz (like the holosun 3x lots of people are running these days) so a 5x prism with an offset or piggyback RDS would weigh the same but with more magnification and no moving parts (also a more complex reticle and likely more light transmission). I am a bit peeved at the piggyback footprint they chose for this, as I have no interest in any current optic that fits it so an offset holosun 503 is most likely for myself. Having two separate optics rather than an optic/magnifier combo also gives more redundancy, and an etched reticle in case of battery failure (or two battery failures in this case).
Other than the usual problems with having an offset optic, can anyone shoot any holes in this plan? I've mocked it up someone loosely with a traditional tube scope and a cheapo offset mount but have very little trigger time with it so the above thought process is mostly hypothetical.
What's the end use? And the all-in price for that is what, like $600-$700? Napkin math but $400 for the prism, $200 for the Holosun, plus tax & shipping gets you close.
Personally, I think "rounds to $1K in a thousands view" is enough total expense to at least ask yourself about getting get creative, squeezing out more money, and buying an ACOG if that's what you want but can't justify cost on (since you referenced it).
I am in the "if Trijicon/Aimpoint is the general idea, it's also probably the answer" camp though.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 09, 2021, 10:54:46 AM
What's the end use? And the all-in price for that is what, like $600-$700? Napkin math but $400 for the prism, $200 for the Holosun, plus tax & shipping gets you close.
Personally, I think "rounds to $1K in a thousands view" is enough total expense to at least ask yourself about getting get creative, squeezing out more money, and buying an ACOG if that's what you want but can't justify cost on (since you referenced it).
I am in the "if Trijicon/Aimpoint is the general idea, it's also probably the answer" camp though.
Basically I want 1X and 4X (minimum, 6X would be preferred) on the same gun and to my eyes this is a better way to achieve that than either an LPVO or an RDS+magnifier, but I don't know many people doing something similar so I'm curious if there are any issues with the combination that I'm overlooking. In general my question would be the same if the combination was an ACOG and an offset T1, unless someone knows of a specific issue with the vortex but I assume its a bit to soon to say.
I've owned an ACOG in the past and likely won't again, I have a few aimpoints and probably won't get more for quite some time, and I have several holosuns already so that's not really part of the question at this point.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 09, 2021, 08:15:59 PM
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 09, 2021, 10:54:46 AM
What's the end use? And the all-in price for that is what, like $600-$700? Napkin math but $400 for the prism, $200 for the Holosun, plus tax & shipping gets you close.
Personally, I think "rounds to $1K in a thousands view" is enough total expense to at least ask yourself about getting get creative, squeezing out more money, and buying an ACOG if that's what you want but can't justify cost on (since you referenced it).
I am in the "if Trijicon/Aimpoint is the general idea, it's also probably the answer" camp though.
Basically I want 1X and 4X (minimum, 6X would be preferred) on the same gun and to my eyes this is a better way to achieve that than either an LPVO or an RDS+magnifier, but I don't know many people doing something similar so I'm curious if there are any issues with the combination that I'm overlooking. In general my question would be the same if the combination was an ACOG and an offset T1, unless someone knows of a specific issue with the vortex but I assume its a bit to soon to say.
I've owned an ACOG in the past and likely won't again, I have a few aimpoints and probably won't get more for quite some time, and I have several holosuns already so that's not really part of the question at this point.
Oh, makes sense.
Not to ask a stupid question but why not just an LPVO and an offset microdot? It sounds like you're replicating the old HAMR with a fatter secondary.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 10, 2021, 08:12:52 AM
Not to ask a stupid question but why not just an LPVO and an offset microdot? It sounds like you're replicating the old HAMR with a fatter secondary.
From what I can see most LPVOs are heavier, more expensive, take up more space on the gun, and have a smaller objective (than the prism in question). I've ranted about this in a few spots but I can't understand the trend of an LPVO/RDS combo; if you have a 1X in the form of the RDS you might as well go to a 2-7 or a 3-9 or something with a larger objective that is likely much more affordable. The tiny objective on (nearly) all LPVOs is to accommodate the lowest end of the magnification, which is precisely the end you don't need if you have an RDS which is better in every way at 1X.
Is there some advantage to an LPVO/RDS combo I'm missing? As popular as they are I'm suspicious I am missing something but for the life of me I can't find it (other than they look cooler than a traditional scope of course).
If the prism scope turns out to be junk my plan B is a low power traditional scope, probably a leupold in the aforementioned 2-7 or 3-9 range; it would be slightly heavier and more of a hassle to mount, but a smidge cheaper at the same time.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 15, 2021, 06:02:38 PM
Is there some advantage to an LPVO/RDS combo I'm missing? As popular as they are I'm suspicious I am missing something but for the life of me I can't find it (other than they look cooler than a traditional scope of course).
Looking cool
is essential, after all... :greenguy:
Best bit of info I can find on running the LPVO/offset RDS is from Kevin Owens (former spec ops guy) here:
https://youtu.be/84KBHdpKB1c?t=411 (https://youtu.be/84KBHdpKB1c?t=411)
That said, I suppose you could apply some of that reasoning to a more traditional scope (with a fairly smallish objective lense) in a 2-7x or 3-9x, maybe.
Personally, I like the LPVO, because while it is true that it's not as good as a RDS or prism at 1x, you do get the etched reticle, like the prism, plus some magnification range. It's a jack-of-all-trades optic. If I don't know what kind of situation I'm going to be needing a rifle in, I want one that can do it all at least passably. Beyond that, my eyes don't like red dots anymore, and a little bit of magnification is nice for anything beyond cqb. I know, I should wear glasses, but I'm a stubborn ass like that. :awesome:
Quote from: Mr. E. Monkey on August 16, 2021, 10:50:35 AM
Best bit of info I can find on running the LPVO/offset RDS is from Kevin Owens (former spec ops guy) here:
That said, I suppose you could apply some of that reasoning to a more traditional scope (with a fairly smallish objective lense) in a 2-7x or 3-9x, maybe.
That was one of the first videos that put me down this rabbit hole; I couldn't find anything he said that really explained why he chose an LPVO (as opposed to a scope with a higher bottom end), and in fact if I recall he expressly said he was leaving it on a higher power and not using it as an LPVO at all.
I of course understand the appeal of an LPVO by itself, it's only in the context of the combo that it makes less sense to me.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 16, 2021, 07:55:48 PM
That was one of the first videos that put me down this rabbit hole; I couldn't find anything he said that really explained why he chose an LPVO (as opposed to a scope with a higher bottom end), and in fact if I recall he expressly said he was leaving it on a higher power and not using it as an LPVO at all.
I of course understand the appeal of an LPVO by itself, it's only in the context of the combo that it makes less sense to me.
There's also a dimension related to using NODs, supposedly. Something about being less hassle to pick up the red dot than an LPVO at 1x.
I am not experienced at all in this area, so that's just what I have been told.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 16, 2021, 07:55:48 PM
That was one of the first videos that put me down this rabbit hole; I couldn't find anything he said that really explained why he chose an LPVO (as opposed to a scope with a higher bottom end), and in fact if I recall he expressly said he was leaving it on a higher power and not using it as an LPVO at all.
I of course understand the appeal of an LPVO by itself, it's only in the context of the combo that it makes less sense to me.
I think I get where you're coming from a little better now.
I would figure that the main advantage of an LPVO in
that case is that if your RDS breaks, falls off, whatever, you still have a 1x capable optic for CQB. Less ideal than a 1x prism or RDS, for sure, but still workable. But really, I'm pretty much just guessing at this point. I suppose you could make the argument that you only need a LPVO for 5.56, and that a higher power scope would be overkill, but that depends on your eyes, and your opinion, I think. :)
In that regard, aside from possibly a large objective end getting in the way of the RDS, I don't see much of a reason why it wouldn't be workable to run a higher-power scope with a RDS. A good RDS in a good mount should drastically reduce the likelihood of being forced to use the scope for close-in work, so...?
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?
Red dot or a prism ?
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 03:47:32 PM
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?
Red dot or a prism ?
For astigmatism: prism or a conventional riflescope.
For eye injury / not astigmatism... no idea.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 17, 2021, 05:08:01 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 03:47:32 PM
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?
Red dot or a prism ?
For astigmatism: prism or a conventional riflescope.
For eye injury / not astigmatism... no idea.
I've got astigmatism and most red dots are a bit blurry for me. On my AR, if I look through the rear peep sight, the dot is crisp and clear. Without the rear sight, the dot is blurry and kind of star shaped.
So it looks like either I get Lasik and fix my vision that way (which it is something I have been thinking about.) or I pick up a prism optic and go from there.
Now I'm sitting here wondering if me getting accidentally sprayed in the face with carburetor cleaner when I was a kid played a part in my messed up eyesight as an adult.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 17, 2021, 05:08:01 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 03:47:32 PM
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?
Red dot or a prism ?
For astigmatism: prism or a conventional riflescope.
For eye injury / not astigmatism... no idea.
So it looks like either I get Lasik and fix my vision that way (which it is something I have been thinking about.) or I pick up a prism optic and go from there.
Now I'm sitting here wondering if me getting accidentally sprayed in the face with carburetor cleaner when I was a kid played a part in my messed up eyesight as an adult.
In January I managed to poke myself in the eye with a twig. I was wearing glasses but not the usual wrap around eye protection when I do work in the yard, because I had finished the task and just walking through bushes. The accident was a fluke and the twig was expertly placed to avoid my glasses. Hurt like hell and damaged the cornea.
It also damaged my vision to the point that I needed a new lens in the injured eye after it healed 2 months later.I now have the same issue with red dot scopes.
The good news is that it was not my dominant eye the bad news is that I use red dots with both eyes open and it kinda defeats the whole purpose of a red dot to use only one eye.
I was considering eye surgery to fix it but I was told to wait a while longer to see if the vision changes again with time.
If you damaged your eye years ago that advice may not apply but if you did so recently like me then get at least 2 assessments of what surgery can do and make sure you explain the issue to the MDs. I have found that when discussing issues with optics they often have no clue about a red dot vs a prism scope.
I've also found explaining to the doctor you need it fixed in case of zombies or aliens doesn't go over well.
Telling them you want to travel and are concerned about issues in developing nations works much better.
But when it comes to astigmatism, the best optices are eyeglasses. :awesome:
Raptor, I was about 8 or 9 when I got sprayed in the face with carburetor cleaner. The damage was minor and my mother was able to keep the cleaner from doing more damage by rinsing it off my face and away from my eyes.
I think what saved me from more harm was my mom's quick thinking and the fact I kind of had my eyes closed when I got sprayed. I don't remember my eyes being all the way open and I think I may have had my head at an angle when my neighbor accidentally hit the sprayer.
Quote from: RoneKiln on August 17, 2021, 08:59:18 PM
I've also found explaining to the doctor you need it fixed in case of zombies or aliens doesn't go over well.
Telling them you want to travel and are concerned about issues in developing nations works much better.
But when it comes to astigmatism, the best optices are eyeglasses. :awesome:
That actually reminds me that I need to set up an appointment to get my eyes checked again. It's been a few years since my last eye exam.
Pretty sure my eye doctor is going to be disappointed with me on that one. :gonk:
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 05:38:03 PM
I've got astigmatism and most red dots are a bit blurry for me. On my AR, if I look through the rear peep sight, the dot is crisp and clear. Without the rear sight, the dot is blurry and kind of star shaped.
I get the same thing. Prism optics are crisp and clear for me. :)
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 09:28:09 PM
Raptor, I was about 8 or 9 when I got sprayed in the face with carburetor cleaner. The damage was minor and my mother was able to keep the cleaner from doing more damage by rinsing it off my face and away from my eyes.
I would say you have waited long enough for any improvement to occur, disregard my comment. :)
Quote from: RoneKiln on August 17, 2021, 08:59:18 PM
I've also found explaining to the doctor you need it fixed in case of zombies or aliens doesn't go over well.
Telling them you want to travel and are concerned about issues in developing nations works much better.
But when it comes to astigmatism, the best optices are eyeglasses. :awesome:
Normally for things like this (i.e. getting an RX for desired pharmaceuticals) that is exactly what I say; "travel to developing nations".
I used to do this and my regular MD who has since retired was very accommodating within reason.
My new MD is a whole lot less accommodating and is on the "soon to be replaced" list.
Quote from: Mr. E. Monkey on August 18, 2021, 08:19:32 AM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 05:38:03 PM
I've got astigmatism and most red dots are a bit blurry for me. On my AR, if I look through the rear peep sight, the dot is crisp and clear. Without the rear sight, the dot is blurry and kind of star shaped.
I get the same thing. Prism optics are crisp and clear for me. :)
As soon as I can afford one, I'll probably pick up a prism optic to replace my red dots.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 03:47:32 PM
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?
Red dot or a prism ?
Do you need correction and don't have it, or its messed up even after correction?
I have astigmatism and am a bit near sighted for which i use corrective lenses; but I use pretty much every kind except holographic and they're fine.
But on large MOA RDS, while not blurry, are sometimes oval shaped in the direction of the astig. The small dots, 1 MOA, or if I adj the brightness down to make a small dot I can't notice. But I'm usually wearing corrective lenses. If I don't wear correction, then its a little blurry and lot oval shaped.
My prismatics, and riflescopes, are fine. If they have a diopter, i might have to adj that to my eyes. Even without correction the reticle is fine although the target might not be.
So as long as I wear my scripts every kind of site is fine except long gun iron sites. That is a challenge even with correction. Pistol Irons are ok uncorrected.
That peep site thing is a trick. You can put a pinhole in a piece of paper and put that behind your glasses for target shooting, that will make everything crisp.
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bullseyegear.com%2Fbullseyegear%2Fvar%2Fimages%2Fproduct%2F300.300%2Feyepal2.png&hash=365afafa88e530cacd0722842988988b4f9a4dbe)
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 19, 2021, 04:49:30 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 17, 2021, 03:47:32 PM
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?
Red dot or a prism ?
Do you need correction and don't have it, or its messed up even after correction?
I have astigmatism and am a bit near sighted for which i use corrective lenses; but I use pretty much every kind except holographic and they're fine.
But on large MOA RDS, while not blurry, are sometimes oval shaped in the direction of the astig. The small dots, 1 MOA, or if I adj the brightness down to make a small dot I can't notice. But I'm usually wearing corrective lenses. If I don't wear correction, then its a little blurry and lot oval shaped.
My prismatics, and riflescopes, are fine. If they have a diopter, i might have to adj that to my eyes. Even without correction the reticle is fine although the target might not be.
So as long as I wear my scripts every kind of site is fine except long gun iron sites. That is a challenge even with correction. Pistol Irons are ok uncorrected.
That peep site thing is a trick. You can put a pinhole in a piece of paper and put that behind your glasses for target shooting, that will make everything crisp.
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bullseyegear.com%2Fbullseyegear%2Fvar%2Fimages%2Fproduct%2F300.300%2Feyepal2.png&hash=365afafa88e530cacd0722842988988b4f9a4dbe)
Iron sights are just fine for me. A little blurry, but not as much as when I use an RDS. I've got glasses, but they're mostly for reading and don't really make a difference with blurry red dots.
A regular riflescope is fine as well. I've got to adjust the eye relief a bit to get everything in focus, but other than that I've got no issues.
It's just red dot optics that are odd.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 19, 2021, 05:24:22 PM
Iron sights are just fine for me. A little blurry, but not as much as when I use an RDS. I've got glasses, but they're mostly for reading and don't really make a difference with blurry red dots.
A regular riflescope is fine as well. I've got to adjust the eye relief a bit to get everything in focus, but other than that I've got no issues.
It's just red dot optics that are odd.
do they have adj brightness? maybe dial down the brightness.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 20, 2021, 01:06:21 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on August 19, 2021, 05:24:22 PM
Iron sights are just fine for me. A little blurry, but not as much as when I use an RDS. I've got glasses, but they're mostly for reading and don't really make a difference with blurry red dots.
A regular riflescope is fine as well. I've got to adjust the eye relief a bit to get everything in focus, but other than that I've got no issues.
It's just red dot optics that are odd.
do they have adj brightness? maybe dial down the brightness.
I'll try that and see if it helps.
Taking a big left turn and looking hard at LPVOs. Had intended to pick up a T2 but after looking at anticipated use I'm considering a Leupy Mark 6.
Trying to figure out what reticle will be more use:
556 CMR-W, calibrated for 62-gr:
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/CMR-W-556-Leupold-660x347.jpeg)
Or a TMR-D, which is just mils.
(https://www.opticauthority.com/images-cache/E4/E3/A033/E4E3A033B05FC27A50F744D1E3BD9876C78BAAD2.jpg)
Where I live actually has big enough country for distance shooting, so either will get use. This will be me switching from MOA to MRAD, and it's going on a do-everything AR in 5.56. I like the range/hold/shoot concept a lot, and that I only have to think in mils to get range (i.e. I theoretically don't have to also think through trajectory in mil terms). I do not really anticipate using turrets to dial elevation on a carbine. I have a couple of 700s for that.
Too good to be true?
The bottom reticle looks like it's more streamlined and probably easier to use.
The top on just looks really busy with all the dots and lines and other stuff. In actual use, though, it may be less noticeable than it is as a pic on a screen.
Also, I'm used to just a very basic crosshair, so reticles like the top one seem odd to me.
If you don't want to (or don't plan to) dial turrets, the top reticle makes sense. I'm not a big fan of calibrated reticles in general, though--what if I want to shoot 55 grain bullets? Or put it on a rifle in a different caliber entirely? Now I have to compare ballistic charts and see where it lines up. (I actually have a setup where I had to do just that. It's not that difficult, but it's one extra thing to keep track of, and some days I think my brain is running out of room for some of that stuff.)
That said, if it lines up with your intended use, it would probably be an excellent way to go. I am running a Swampfox Tomahawk 1-8x on my "do-all" 5.56, and picked the reticle with the windage and elevation marks in MOAs, instead of the BDC. The holdover built in to the reticle gets 5.56 out to around 600 yards or so without dialing turrets, which is nice (though I have moved to a place where there is very little chance of shooting anywhere near that far), so I'm sure either of those will do what you need.
I guess the biggest question, for me, would be which reticle is more useful at 1x? With a FFP, they're bound to be pretty small at 1x. I know that would definitely influence my decision, personally.
This one has a built in rangefinder/estimator also. Built in windages.
All for fast firing solutions [once you get used to it].
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/CMR-W-556-Leupold-660x347.jpeg)
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 23, 2021, 10:54:57 AM
This one has a built in rangefinder/estimator also. Built in windages.
All for fast firing solutions [once you get used to it].
Yeah it looks pretty usable.
The main downside is cost... I might flex down (lol) and take a T2 in order to keep moving kn other projects.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 23, 2021, 12:29:30 PM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 23, 2021, 10:54:57 AM
This one has a built in rangefinder/estimator also. Built in windages.
All for fast firing solutions [once you get used to it].
Yeah it looks pretty usable.
The main downside is cost... I might flex down (lol) and take a T2 in order to keep moving kn other projects.
There are LPVO's starting at under T2 prices, you're looking at Leupold for crissake.
For example: https://www.primaryarms.com/search?keywords=lpvo
their ACSS versions have similar ranging and windage on the prism as that Leupold. At the very least, at those prices you can see if you like 'em before springing for the name brands.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 23, 2021, 01:05:46 PM
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 23, 2021, 12:29:30 PM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 23, 2021, 10:54:57 AM
This one has a built in rangefinder/estimator also. Built in windages.
All for fast firing solutions [once you get used to it].
Yeah it looks pretty usable.
The main downside is cost... I might flex down (lol) and take a T2 in order to keep moving kn other projects.
There are LPVO's starting at under T2 prices, you're looking at Leupold for crissake.
For example: https://www.primaryarms.com/search?keywords=lpvo
their ACSS versions have similar ranging and windage on the prism as that Leupold. At the very least, at those prices you can see if you like 'em before springing for the name brands.
Yeah, I understand that I am bypassing the lower end of the market.
I've got one of those incredibly complex reticles on my "primary" AR in 5.56. I've not played with the complexities to get used to them, but I found it very easy to tune them out when doing close quarters drills.
So I've not yet gotten any benefit from them, but they've done me no harm either. I really need to dedicate an evening going over the manual and fiddling with it, and then an entire weekend to getting out somewhere with a wide range of shooting distances.
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 23, 2021, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 23, 2021, 01:05:46 PM
Quote from: Lodewijk on August 23, 2021, 12:29:30 PM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on August 23, 2021, 10:54:57 AM
This one has a built in rangefinder/estimator also. Built in windages.
All for fast firing solutions [once you get used to it].
Yeah it looks pretty usable.
The main downside is cost... I might flex down (lol) and take a T2 in order to keep moving kn other projects.
There are LPVO's starting at under T2 prices, you're looking at Leupold for crissake.
For example: https://www.primaryarms.com/search?keywords=lpvo
their ACSS versions have similar ranging and windage on the prism as that Leupold. At the very least, at those prices you can see if you like 'em before springing for the name brands.
Yeah, I understand that I am bypassing the lower end of the market.
Leupold SALE! @ MidwayUSA https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023059389
Here's your LPVO with rebate and free shipping in your pricepoint. Just doesn't have that reticle.
Ha, TTAG just reviewed the Mark 3HD.
Stepped back and took a realistic look at what my needs will be relative to time availability, which is never pleasant. I'm going to take a T2 here, bump up to a better light than I was looking at (younger, broker me finally gets the coolguy combo he wanted), find a couple of classes, and put the rest of my attention on a long-term 700 build.
Definitely appreciate the input though.
This Just in:
My 1x prismatic. No battery required but does illuminate with a 2032 @ 29000 hours on medium brightness. Bought it with a 12% off coupon from Primary Arms and it has their ACSS reticle.
I've been looking for one of these for a really long time, a 1x prismatic, the closest I got was my Trij Micro ACOG at 1.5x
(https://i.imgur.com/619Yjqs.jpg?1)
Now I really need to start my next build because I don't have a gun to put this on. :headbang:
Quote from: MacWa77ace on September 17, 2021, 01:03:28 PM
This Just in:
My 1x prismatic. No battery required but does illuminate with a 2032 @ 29000 hours on medium brightness. Bought it with a 12% off coupon from Primary Arms and it has their ACSS reticle.
I've been looking for one of these for a really long time, a 1x prismatic, the closest I got was my Trij Micro ACOG at 1.5x
(https://i.imgur.com/619Yjqs.jpg?1)
Now I really need to start my next build because I don't have a gun to put this on. :headbang:
Neat.
What did that optic run you, Mac ?
That new Cyclops is :smiley_hearteyes:
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on September 17, 2021, 01:36:59 PM
Neat.
What did that optic run you, Mac ?
Normally $249.99 but with coupon 219.99, but for some reason had to pay tax for a TX purchase shipping to FL. I don't remember them adding taxes before.
As compared to my Trij Micro ACOG which was also on sale and I had a coupon and I added a mount with additional discount. That was $905 total including $7 shipping and no tax from PA also. that' was about a $200 savings so you know I had to do it.
Yeah I just looked, my last purchase from PA was Jan 2021 and no tax added there either.
Think I'm going to contact them and see if that's not an error. it's $15 we're talking about here.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on September 17, 2021, 02:12:42 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on September 17, 2021, 01:36:59 PM
Neat.
What did that optic run you, Mac ?
Normally $249.99 but with coupon 219.99, but for some reason had to pay tax for a TX purchase shipping to FL. I don't remember them adding taxes before.
As compared to my Trij Micro ACOG which was also on sale and I had a coupon and I added a mount with additional discount. That was $905 total including $7 shipping and no tax from PA also. that' was about a $200 savings so you know I had to do it.
Yeah I just looked, my last purchase from PA was Jan 2021 and no tax added there either.
Think I'm going to contact them and see if that's not an error. it's $15 we're talking about here.
That is odd, Mac. I'd figure the TX tax would only apply to Texas residents.
As for the optic, it's on my list to check out now. I've been wanting to try out a prismatic optic for awhile since red dots get blurry for me.
They work, but I'd like something a bit clearer. Which is where the prismatic optics come in.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on September 17, 2021, 02:56:01 PM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on September 17, 2021, 02:12:42 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on September 17, 2021, 01:36:59 PM
Neat.
What did that optic run you, Mac ?
Normally $249.99 but with coupon 219.99, but for some reason had to pay tax for a TX purchase shipping to FL. I don't remember them adding taxes before.
As compared to my Trij Micro ACOG which was also on sale and I had a coupon and I added a mount with additional discount. That was $905 total including $7 shipping and no tax from PA also. that' was about a $200 savings so you know I had to do it.
Yeah I just looked, my last purchase from PA was Jan 2021 and no tax added there either.
Think I'm going to contact them and see if that's not an error. it's $15 we're talking about here.
That is odd, Mac. I'd figure the TX tax would only apply to Texas residents.
As for the optic, it's on my list to check out now. I've been wanting to try out a prismatic optic for awhile since red dots get blurry for me.
They work, but I'd like something a bit clearer. Which is where the prismatic optics come in.
I emailed their customer care because I looked back over my previous orders and there was never tax added. Could be a new thing, but for large purchases the tax thing can be a deal breaker especially if there is freight added. This was a free freight item as it is. Or they may have put a location in FL.
As you know I like prismatics for the fact that they don't have to have batteries to work. But this one has a diopter also, to focus the reticle. There's a bunch of new review videos out there, these were pre order only since July, and while i didn't pre order there was a sitewide sale last weekend, so i was going to pre order if the coupon worked for it, but it was instock and the coupon worked. Ordered it last Sunday.
Them being a preorder item is probably why I hadn't heard of that particular model until today.
Then again, I don't really follow optics as much as other firearm accessories so that's probably why I didn't know about it.
Optics p0rn
(https://i.imgur.com/E1i17eK.jpg?1)
Left to right:
Trijicon ACOG 4x 32mm duel site w/ BDC cross hair reticle and Docter MRS TA31D
Trijicon Micro ACOG 1.5x 16mm w/ ACSS reticle and Bobro QD mount TA44
Primary Arms 1x 17mm w/ ACSS reticle SLX Micro Prizm 'Cyclops'
UTG 1x Red/Green Dot site 30mm w/ UTG QD mount
UTG 3x magnifier flip to side QD mount
Field Sport 1x Micro RDS 20mm w/ UTG QD mount
So I just remembered that I have to send my big ACOG in to Trijicon to revitalize the tritium. I've had that since 2006 and the life of the tritium is 15 years. When I send it in I'll probably use the Cyclops on that rifle as a temp.
My Leupold DeltaPoint Micro showed up the other day. Seemed like a nifty RDS for handguns. Although after I ordered it I remembered my headlamp problem and I'll probably have to use a different handgun for night time barnyard chores.
(https://i.imgur.com/jMJ0czb.jpg)
Optics Planet did take their time getting it to me. It wouldn't have been so frustrating if they hadn't sent me constant updates with wildly different estimated shipping times. The other bummer is that there appears to be something wrong with the power button/brightness control. It basically has one button on the battery cap that you use to adjust brightness and as the on/off, but it doesn't seem to do anything.
The dot is also weird but that might be something to do with my eyes. It looks like a collection of tiny dots surrounded by a star shaped halo. Maybe I have an astigmatism? I don't remember having this problem with red dots in the past, but it's been quite a few years and I don't own any others to compare it to. Can an astigmatism worsen with age? I figure I'll have a couple other people look at it to see if they see the same thing. It's also about time to schedule an eye appointment anyway.
I took a picture but on my phone's camera it looks like a bunch of concentric rings. It's not what I see and I suspect not what it looks like to the naked eye for most anyone.
(https://i.imgur.com/LvIpIVC.jpg)
Edit: All I had t do was complain about it not working and the problem with the button went away. I tried removing the battery and putting it back in three times and had the same problem, but fourth times the charm I guess?
Edit 2: Derp, I forgot I have an old DeltaPoint (ye olde magnesium one from many years ago) that I can use to check to see if my eyes have gone all wonky. It had a triangle-shaped dot that I remember looking clear a couple years back, so it should be good for this test. Now if I can just figure out where I stashed it during my multiple moves.
I have not made the move to handgun optics yet but that micro looks half the size of the RMRs which scare me as far as dot pickup. My main reason for not mounting one yet. I have talked to and heard a few trainers who say you have to do at least 2000 draw to site pictures before you should use one on a PDW for PD IRL. And have had issues picking it up on the few borrowed tries I've practiced with.
(https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Leupolds-New-DeltaPoint-Micro-Red-Dot-Sight-660x300.png)
(https://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/AR_10mm1-620x353.jpg)
I can definitely see why the small window would be a concern as far as dot pickup goes. The funny thing is from the reviews it sounds like counterintuitively it is the opposite. The window is small enough and so close to the top of the slide that in the reviews it sounds like the whole thing acts like a big ghost ring that is actually easier for people used to iron sights to get used to. On the other hand the small window means that it is easier to lose the dot under recoil so it might not be as big of a benefit over using iron sights as a more conventional red dot.
From the good reviews I've watched (good meaning they appear to be honest and not just trying to sell a product) it sounds like there are a bunch of tradeoffs that offer some advantages but at the same time come with downsides. I don't have experience with red dots on handguns though so this should all be taken with a bunch of salt.
On the good side the window sits low enough to the slide that it can co-witness with the front sight (which can be standard height). This means it is easier for many iron sights users to get used to and if the dot fails it works pretty effectively as a ghost-ring iron sight. On the downside the window is small enough that it is easier to lose track of the dot during recoil and the front sight takes up a decent chunk of the window.
For concealment purposes it is smaller in terms of height but sticks out from the back in ways that might print, and might poke if you're appendix carrying and have a gut.
Some other pros: Seems to be durably built (no multi-year tests yet but some abusive tests have been done), fully enclosed, installs easily and without having to permanently modify a slide, battery can be changed easily without removing the sight, good battery life
Some other cons: No clicks when adjusting the sight which can make zeroing annoying, not the most common battery, battery cap threads are fine so you need to be careful not to cross-thread, currently only for Glock and M&P (and might never work with many hammer-fired handguns due to the design), looks weird
(Again, no personal experience, just aggregating reviews.)
There are two main things that drew me to it. The first is that it can be installed without permanently altering the slide. I have a Glock 29 which I am very fond of but there isn't much in the way of aftermarket slides, so I'd be bummed if I got the slide milled and then hated the dot. The second is that it is fully enclosed and the stuff I used is very frequently getting exposed to rain, very cold temps and dirt. (In the manual I read that it's operating temps go as low as -20f, so I guess we're going to find out how accurate that is :icon_crazy:.)
Quote from: Optimist on October 01, 2021, 04:06:26 PM
I can definitely see why the small window would be a concern as far as dot pickup goes. The funny thing is from the reviews it sounds like counterintuitively it is the opposite. The window is small enough and so close to the top of the slide that in the reviews it sounds like the whole thing acts like a big ghost ring that is actually easier for people used to iron sights to get used to. On the other hand the small window means that it is easier to lose the dot under recoil so it might not be as big of a benefit over using iron sights as a more conventional red dot.
For concealment purposes it is smaller in terms of height but sticks out from the back in ways that might print, and might poke if you're appendix carrying and have a gut.
[..]
There are two main things that drew me to it. The first is that it can be installed without permanently altering the slide. I have a Glock 29 which I am very fond of but there isn't much in the way of aftermarket slides, so I'd be bummed if I got the slide milled and then hated the dot. The second is that it is fully enclosed and the stuff I used is very frequently getting exposed to rain, very cold temps and dirt. (In the manual I read that it's operating temps go as low as -20f, so I guess we're going to find out how accurate that is :icon_crazy:.)
Thanks for that added review.
When i looked at it the first thing I thought was ghost ring myself. When I bring up a handgun to acquire a site picture, the way I do it now is to catch the front site as I bring it up and put it on the target with the gun angled as if I was making a 100yd shot. Basically the top of the rear site blades are aligned with the bottom of the front site post, then once on target, a little flip and perfect site picture. [ I don't target shoot or aim with one eye, with pistols either come up from low ready or draw and shoot controlled pairs or mogadishu, or boxed controlled pair drills etc.]
I wouldn't worry about recoil and losing the dot, you lose the iron sites too. It just shouldn't matter if you grip your automatic correctly, Because as soon as the gun is back in battery your muscle memory and grip should have the sight right back where you were at the moment of trigger break. You can see where your at by doing this test at the range. Actually aiming for the first shot like normal but closing your eyes at trigger break an firing a second shot as a controlled pair [time interval vs double tap] when you feel the gun snap back into battery. The POI should be really close to the first shot. Now that is at 7 yds or less of course. CQB.
People CC with weapon lights attached and RMRs, shouldn't be an issue, with CC its all about the holster.
The mounting was the second thing I noticed, right in the dovetail, very cool. I was thinking I was just going to buy optics ready slides when I'm ready to go there. That way I'll have a BU iron site slide. Can you get at the firing pin without removing the site though. Not a Glock guy, M&P and IIRC that is the pin access.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 01, 2021, 05:04:49 PM
I wouldn't worry about recoil and losing the dot, you lose the iron sites too. It just shouldn't matter if you grip your automatic correctly, Because as soon as the gun is back in battery your muscle memory and grip should have the sight right back where you were at the moment of trigger break. You can see where your at by doing this test at the range. Actually aiming for the first shot like normal but closing your eyes at trigger break an firing a second shot as a controlled pair [time interval vs double tap] when you feel the gun snap back into battery. The POI should be really close to the first shot. Now that is at 7 yds or less of course. CQB.
Thanks, I'll have to try doing that. Seems like a good way to test myself that would actually give useable feedback. Kind of reminds me of the trick with testing your natural point of aim where you get on target, close your eyes, take in a breath and let it out then open your eyes to see if you're still on target. (The NPOI stuff was my favorite part of the Appleseed class.)
I'm not sure about being able to still remove the firing pin on an M&P, so far all the reviews I've seen they've been using it on Glocks.
I firmly believe in being able to shoot at decent ranges with my handgun and it would drive me crazy to lose the dot.
That said, if I truly needed my handgun, it's probably at point blank range and I'm more concerned with pulling the trigger as fast as possible.
In one of the handgun classes I took last year they completely taped up our sites and turned the lights off so we could at best shoot by the vague outline of our handgun. Enough light filtered in we could tell where the target was and maneuver safely, but we couldn't see details. To my surprise we all kept hitting center mass even all the way back to... I think 18 yards. It was the maximum length of the indoor range we were in.
So while I was away I signed up for Medicare, then decided to do retirement benefits too. Made a deal with the wife that my first year of benefits is mine to use as I want, after that it goes in the household budget. Used my first check to take advantage of a screaming good price on a Holosun HS515CM (MSRP is $411 and grabbed one for $297) then added one of their 3x tip off magnifiers to the deal for another $200.
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfamrrbQ.jpg&hash=aa49dddd16e9608a2d2c12eeaf53534c8959fa64) (https://imgur.com/famrrbQ)
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEsqK4CZ.jpg&hash=385ce2ffc11e68819c85c9ae240d739284b798b9) (https://imgur.com/EsqK4CZ)
Those went on my AR, replacing the Holosun HE503CU-GR that was on it. That in turn went on my Mossberg 500 to replace a low priced RDS I've had on there. I'll have to add a cheek riser to the stock but I think it'll work.
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FD0Fb8NJ.jpg&hash=b6545e64caf33c96e6633f5a5d1ad7d2a26dd8c4) (https://imgur.com/D0Fb8NJ)
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FI2uP4Rv.jpg&hash=f5ce8a3587793a3e6afd1b5292daab7355502e37) (https://imgur.com/I2uP4Rv)
Then a friend of mine dropped by and said we should take them with us on his pontoon boat and... the bastard forgot the drain plug and it sank.
Quote from: NT2C on October 05, 2021, 07:22:45 PM
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfamrrbQ.jpg&hash=aa49dddd16e9608a2d2c12eeaf53534c8959fa64) (https://imgur.com/famrrbQ)
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEsqK4CZ.jpg&hash=385ce2ffc11e68819c85c9ae240d739284b798b9) (https://imgur.com/EsqK4CZ)
Then a friend of mine dropped by and said we should take them with us on his pontoon boat and... the bastard forgot the drain plug and it sank.
I'm thinking you should optimize the spacing between the RDS and magnifier. The magnifier's eye relief determines its position then the RDS backs right up as close to the magnifier as the picatinny will allow.
That way light won't spill into the magnifier interior tube.
LOL Boat stories, good idea for a thread
Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 05, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
I'm thinking you should optimize the spacing between the RDS and magnifier. The magnifier's eye relief determines its position then the RDS backs right up as close to the magnifier as the picatinny will allow.
That way light won't spill into the magnifier interior tube.
LOL Boat stories, good idea for a thread
I'd normally do exactly that, but note that the RDS comes with flip down lens covers. That's as close as I can get and still allow them to swing open. Seems to work well enough for my purposes but if it turns into an issue I can always remove one cover.
Quote from: NT2C on October 06, 2021, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 05, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
I'm thinking you should optimize the spacing between the RDS and magnifier. The magnifier's eye relief determines its position then the RDS backs right up as close to the magnifier as the picatinny will allow.
That way light won't spill into the magnifier interior tube.
LOL Boat stories, good idea for a thread
I'd normally do exactly that, but note that the RDS comes with flip down lens covers. That's as close as I can get and still allow them to swing open. Seems to work well enough for my purposes but if it turns into an issue I can always remove one cover.
Right, Right. But there's a trick to that. If you move the RDS as close as possible to the magnifier, not only do you get the benefit of not getting light bleed, but the added benefit that the magnifier works as a rear lens protector when it is in the flipped up position.
On my UTG setup, the rear magnifier comes with a rubber bikini lens cover, so i positioned the RDS to have it actually touch the bikini cover of the Magnifier. I left the front flip on on the RDS, removed the rear, and then use the bikini on the magnifier to do double duty.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 07, 2021, 11:36:44 AM
Quote from: NT2C on October 06, 2021, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 05, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
I'm thinking you should optimize the spacing between the RDS and magnifier. The magnifier's eye relief determines its position then the RDS backs right up as close to the magnifier as the picatinny will allow.
That way light won't spill into the magnifier interior tube.
LOL Boat stories, good idea for a thread
I'd normally do exactly that, but note that the RDS comes with flip down lens covers. That's as close as I can get and still allow them to swing open. Seems to work well enough for my purposes but if it turns into an issue I can always remove one cover.
Right, Right. But there's a trick to that. If you move the RDS as close as possible to the magnifier, not only do you get the benefit of not getting light bleed, but the added benefit that the magnifier works as a rear lens protector when it is in the flipped up position.
On my UTG setup, the rear magnifier comes with a rubber bikini lens cover, so i positioned the RDS to have it actually touch the bikini cover of the Magnifier. I left the front flip on on the RDS, removed the rear, and then use the bikini on the magnifier to do double duty.
I'll see how much of an issue light bleed is for me when I start shooting with this setup to get used to it. If it turns out to be a problem I'll try your advice.
I'd love to find some flip up covers for the Bushnell TRS-25 and Crimson Trace CTS-25 red dots I've got, but no one makes anything that small.
I'd also like to find a better cover for the Weaver micro dot I've got on my AR, but again, no luck.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on October 07, 2021, 01:01:50 PM
I'd love to find some flip up covers for the Bushnell TRS-25 and Crimson Trace CTS-25 red dots I've got, but no one makes anything that small.
I'd also like to find a better cover for the Weaver micro dot I've got on my AR, but again, no luck.
There's a generic 20mm micro rds bikini cover out there. I got one as an RPL for one of mine that broke and it fit perfectly.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=20mm+micro+bikini+cover+for+optics&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images make sure your safe search is ON! before clicking that link. LOL.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 07, 2021, 02:38:29 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on October 07, 2021, 01:01:50 PM
I'd love to find some flip up covers for the Bushnell TRS-25 and Crimson Trace CTS-25 red dots I've got, but no one makes anything that small.
I'd also like to find a better cover for the Weaver micro dot I've got on my AR, but again, no luck.
There's a generic 20mm micro rds bikini cover out there. I got one as an RPL for one of mine that broke and it fit perfectly.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=20mm+micro+bikini+cover+for+optics&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images make sure your safe search is ON! before clicking that link. LOL.
I've made that mistake before, Mac. :smiley_crocodile:
Some of the results weren't too bad, but definitely not what I was intending to find when I searched.
Do you guys ever buy used rifle scopes? I've heard several times that scopes don't hold their value well, but I never thought it through on the other side that good deals might be had buying used. For some reason I'm a little worried that I might get something busted and I'll waste a bunch of ammo figuring it out. On the other hand the same is true for used firearms and I buy those all the time.
Only scope I've ever bought used was an old Tasco air rifle scope and it seems to be working well.
I only paid 7 bucks for it, so if it sucks, I'm not out much money.
Quote from: Optimist on October 13, 2021, 11:17:12 PM
Do you guys ever buy used rifle scopes? I've heard several times that scopes don't hold their value well, but I never thought it through on the other side that good deals might be had buying used. For some reason I'm a little worried that I might get something busted and I'll waste a bunch of ammo figuring it out. On the other hand the same is true for used firearms and I buy those all the time.
I've bought several. Had an issue with one Burris scope with illuminated reticle not wanting to turn off and draining batteries. Still worked non illuminated though. I think that scope is on my Keltec Sub2k right now.
The challenge with used scopes is it's harder to check if seals have ruptured and the nitrogen has leaked out or if something got jacked up with the dials. Issues with firearms are usually more obvious during basic function checks. Firearms tend to be easier to repair than scopes as well. In fact, I'm not sure scopes can be repaired.
I don't think getting them used is ideal, but I wouldn't ever discount the possibility of buying them used again. I think overall I've come out ahead on what I've bought used. But it would suck if you bought your dream high end scope used at what seemed a decent deal and it fogged up the first chilly day you took it out cause the seals had leaked.
Makes sense that the price of the scope would be a factor. I have had scopes with bad seals (or maybe they were never sealed to start with) that came on used firearms, but I in those cases I always figured the scopes were junk to start with so I never felt ripped off.
I'm looking at upgrading from low-end to middle of the road.
:cussing:
Saw a deal on a vortex strikefire for around 40% off last summer and thought "I've wanted to try a red dot for a while. That's hard to pass up.
Then I learned about prism sites thanks to some of you and thought "that seems even better than a red dot."
Two weeks ago I see a Bushnell red dot for half off and impulse bought it.
Now I have two red dots and am looking forward to trying them.
Today I get an email for the vortex spitfire prism site on an even better sale than the strikefire. Barring some quality issue I don't know about, I would much prefer the prism site. I like not being battery dependent. My resistance to being reliant on batteries is why I held off so long on trying a red dot.
It may be childish but now I'm very disappointed to have bought the red dot sites. :'(
I used one of the first generation Vortex 1x prism sights for a few years. I was pretty happy with it. Seemed fairly rugged and the battery lasted quite a while. The only thing I didn't care for was the 0.5 MOA adjustments which is honestly fine for what it is probably intended for but a little coarse for shooting small targets with a .22 LR.
I don't have enough experience with red dots to compare. I was looking to buy a red dot when the Vortex prism went on sale for $150, so that's why I picked it up.
Quote from: RoneKiln on October 14, 2021, 11:08:25 PM
:cussing:
Saw a deal on a vortex strikefire for around 40% off last summer and thought "I've wanted to try a red dot for a while. That's hard to pass up.
Then I learned about prism sites thanks to some of you and thought "that seems even better than a red dot."
Two weeks ago I see a Bushnell red dot for half off and impulse bought it.
Now I have two red dots and am looking forward to trying them.
Today I get an email for the vortex spitfire prism site on an even better sale than the strikefire. Barring some quality issue I don't know about, I would much prefer the prism site. I like not being battery dependent. My resistance to being reliant on batteries is why I held off so long on trying a red dot.
It may be childish but now I'm very disappointed to have bought the red dot sites. :'(
If you're worried about battery failure there are always Holosun units with solar backup. They'll even work from bright room lights and have a battery life of up to 100,000 hours on some models, depending on your brightness setting and reticle, and will warn you of a low battery long before it fails. They're good sights IMHO but, it does really just come down to what
you want and are comfortable enough with to trust.
Quote from: Optimist on October 13, 2021, 11:17:12 PM
Do you guys ever buy used rifle scopes? I've heard several times that scopes don't hold their value well, but I never thought it through on the other side that good deals might be had buying used. For some reason I'm a little worried that I might get something busted and I'll waste a bunch of ammo figuring it out. On the other hand the same is true for used firearms and I buy those all the time.
Its possible that all my optics save one were purchased used; I've had a few duds (one intentionally purchased broken) but I just only buy optics with decent warranties so I've always come out just fine.
That's a good point. I know that Vortex's warranty is transferable, is that normal for other companies with lifetime warranties?
Neither Aimpoint nor Holosun has ever asked me if I was the original owner, and I don't think either care. My only other optics right now are leupold and trijicon which are also known for a good warranty.
Odd request; I'm exploring magnified optic options again and was looking for a relatively light scope (lets say 15oz or less) with a largish objective (lets say 45mm and up). Anything come to mind for anyone? fixed power would be prefered (more light transmission) but I know those are getting uncommon so thats a soft requirement
Quote from: RonnyRonin on October 18, 2021, 12:10:14 AM
Quote from: Optimist on October 13, 2021, 11:17:12 PM
Do you guys ever buy used rifle scopes? I've heard several times that scopes don't hold their value well, but I never thought it through on the other side that good deals might be had buying used. For some reason I'm a little worried that I might get something busted and I'll waste a bunch of ammo figuring it out. On the other hand the same is true for used firearms and I buy those all the time.
Its possible that all my optics save one were purchased used; I've had a few duds (one intentionally purchased broken) but I just only buy optics with decent warranties so I've always come out just fine.
Woohoo! I just looked up the Burris warranty thanks to you and I see it's "forever" regardless of whether you're the original owner. I'm sending mine in to get it fixed!
Quote from: RonnyRonin on October 18, 2021, 10:30:34 PM
Neither Aimpoint nor Holosun has ever asked me if I was the original owner, and I don't think either care. My only other optics right now are leupold and trijicon which are also known for a good warranty.
Odd request; I'm exploring magnified optic options again and was looking for a relatively light scope (lets say 15oz or less) with a largish objective (lets say 45mm and up). Anything come to mind for anyone? fixed power would be prefered (more light transmission) but I know those are getting uncommon so thats a soft requirement
I was looking for a low-light target scope a few years back and I was looking at a few things in that vein.
Leupold FX-3 6x42 was near the top of my list. Only weighs 13.6 ounces and is just a little under your objective lense requirement. A guy I used to hunt with (who passed away, unfortunately) swore by these and had them on most of his rifles. On the other hand he had many strongly held opinions which I thought didn't match up with reality, so I take his recommendations with some salt. I don't have much personal experience other than taking a couple shots through his at targets every once in a while.
I ended up getting a Weaver Classic in 8x56. It's a big objective lense and a fixed power, bit just a little over your weight limit at 16.2 oz. I noticed a decent improvement in low light over the Nikon 3-9x40 that came on my rifle. I haven't done any heavy field use with it, but it's been fine in rain, sub-zero temperatures and getting the occasional whack on a fence or the door to the chicken coop. The reason I got it was that I got a good deal on it off Sample List, back when I was trying to be very frugal. I kind of wish I would have gone with the Leupold as I figure that would be more practical for a hunting rifle, but as a target scope it's been fine. They don't make them anymore but there are probably a bunch available used.
There were some other high-magnification fixed power scopes that I was looking at. They were mostly targeted at Europeans for hunting in the forest at twilight. At the time they were all out of my price range, but I can try to look them up. Docter and Meopta are two manufacturers that I believe had them.
You probably already know this, but when I was researching low-light scopes a few years back I learned about "exit pupil" for the first time. You take the diameter of the objective lense, divide it by the magnification and the result is the exit pupil size. (For example, a 6x42mm would be 6/42, so the exit pupil is 7mm.) This matters because the pupil in most humans eyes can't dilate bigger than 7mm, so a larger exit pupil than 7mm won't necessarily do a person any good. (Some people have pupils that can dilate bigger than 7mm, more have pupils that dilate less than 7mm from my understanding.) I have read some claims that a wider exit pupil than 7mm is still useful because it means you don't need to have your eye perfectly aligned with center of the scope. That kind of makes sense to me, but it's all pretty much over my head.
Anyone know what the warranty is like for Centerpoint scopes ?
I bought a pair of them a few years ago for about 30 bucks total and one of them has a big dent in the tube. The other one was in like new condition (I think it may have been the display model), but the other looks like it was either dropped or someone returned it after mangling it and Walmart took it back despite that.
The dent doesn't mess with the functionality of the scope, it just looks bad.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on October 19, 2021, 06:26:13 PM
Anyone know what the warranty is like for Centerpoint scopes ?
I bought a pair of them a few years ago for about 30 bucks total and one of them has a big dent in the tube. The other one was in like new condition (I think it may have been the display model), but the other looks like it was either dropped or someone returned it after mangling it and Walmart took it back despite that.
The dent doesn't mess with the functionality of the scope, it just looks bad.
A lazy google search indicated they have a lifetime warranty for manufacturer defects. I wouldn't be optimistic of them covering dents unless you had a receipt showing you just bought it and you could argue it came out of the box that way.
Quote from: RoneKiln on October 19, 2021, 10:14:20 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on October 19, 2021, 06:26:13 PM
Anyone know what the warranty is like for Centerpoint scopes ?
I bought a pair of them a few years ago for about 30 bucks total and one of them has a big dent in the tube. The other one was in like new condition (I think it may have been the display model), but the other looks like it was either dropped or someone returned it after mangling it and Walmart took it back despite that.
The dent doesn't mess with the functionality of the scope, it just looks bad.
A lazy google search indicated they have a lifetime warranty for manufacturer defects. I wouldn't be optimistic of them covering dents unless you had a receipt showing you just bought it and you could argue it came out of the box that way.
I wasn't too optimistic about getting it fixed anyway.
Aside from the dent, the scope functions as intended (I've only used it on a BB gun and it works just fine for that), so I can live with it having a dent on the tube.
Quote from: Optimist on October 19, 2021, 06:12:31 PM
Leupold FX-3 6x42 was near the top of my list.
I ended up getting a Weaver Classic in 8x56.
low light is indeed my quest; even bad scopes work decently in full daylight. FX-3 has indeed come up on my short list, and coincidently the weaver k6 as well. Unfortunately the latter is discontinued and almost impossible to find used in its newer aluminum version; only the vintage steel tubes seem to come up for sale.
I am biased toward leupolds as they are an oregon company and seem to come in lighter than most of their competitors.
My package from Primary Arms with my Holosun 507C was supposed to arrive today via FedEx. Looking at the tracking, it was in Staunton, VA (60 miles west of me) at about 8:30 PM on the 5th, then made it to Hagerstown, MD about 1:00 AM today, the 6th. Hagerstown is the FedEx hub for the region and where the truck that usually delivers to me originates from each day. And that's where it sat all day. Never moved from Hagerstown, no note, nothing. Nothing on my account about any delays, nothing on their site, nada. It just got to Hagerstown and died there.
:smiley_shrug:
Edit: I think I figured it out. The truck from Hagerstown to my area leaves Hagerstown about three hours before my package got to Hagerstown, which put the delivery for my optic a day late. It's out for delivery now.
So I haven't given my 10/22 any love for a while, and I want to fix that with a scope. Range will be 0 to 75 yards on the daily, and at times up to 600 yards. I need a magnified scope at least 2-7 power , looking round I see some in that range but for same price and size can get 4-12. First focal plane and second focal plane I don't really know which I like better. Lens size 30mm to 40mm would work . Price well has to no higher then $300 would like it to be around $150.
I checked out Optics planet , Cabela's, Votex, and a few others looking at what they got. Read a few " best .22 scopes" They had Simmons, and a Weaver in there. So y'all got anything ya like in particular ?
If you're okay with a simple reticle, Primary Arms has this: https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-3-9x44-sfp-classic-rifle-scope-duplex-reticle
I got one for Christmas, and haven't gotten it to the range yet, but have it mounted on an AR with a .22 conversion kit. There is a little bit of fisheye around the edges, but the glass is really crisp and clear, overall. I've had one of their other scopes on a Grendel build for a while, and I've been really impressed with their quality. I don't expect this one will be any different.
I do have a Simmons 3-9x as well, come to think of it. I will see if I can get any pictures through them, and if I can, it'll give us a side-by-side comparison, but I do think the Primary Arms has the better glass.
Little update on my combo optic quest;
I finally got hands on a vortex 5x prism and was a bit underwhelmed. Not super great light transmission, pretty narrow field of view, and pretty indistinguishable from a 4x. I'm likely back to a traditional tube scope like a leupold fixed 4X or a 3x9.
Because I'm looking at tube scopes again I have to revisit whether to offset or piggyback the RDS; I have a nice offset mount already but I bought a cheapo piggyback rail just to compare; having 3 optics on one gun is as silly as it sounds but it is really nice to be able to compare side by side.
Offset of course has much better height over bore but requires much more movement to transition between optics, and I'd have to train in a different startle response from my other guns if I want the RDS to come up first. The piggyback mount would have an awful HOB and probably require some funny zero'ing but only requires a tiny head movement to transition.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on January 03, 2022, 10:38:27 PM
Little update on my combo optic quest;
I finally got hands on a vortex 5x prism and was a bit underwhelmed. Not super great light transmission, pretty narrow field of view, and pretty indistinguishable from a 4x. I'm likely back to a traditional tube scope like a leupold fixed 4X or a 3x9.
Because I'm looking at tube scopes again I have to revisit whether to offset or piggyback the RDS; I have a nice offset mount already but I bought a cheapo piggyback rail just to compare; having 3 optics on one gun is as silly as it sounds but it is really nice to be able to compare side by side.
Offset of course has much better height over bore but requires much more movement to transition between optics, and I'd have to train in a different startle response from my other guns if I want the RDS to come up first. The piggyback mount would have an awful HOB and probably require some funny zero'ing but only requires a tiny head movement to transition.
I have my MRS piggybacking on my AGOG and its Zero'd at 25 yards. I figure that I will only be using that when standing / moving in CQ so the HOB isn't really a factor when thinking about staying in cover. It's also not really good at range because of the MOA of the dot on the MRS, so I have the drop compensated 4x ACOG for that. But there's not really anything different about zeroing it. Unless you're thinking of doing a 100yd zero using a 25 or 12 yd calculation. I just used a bore laser.
Another update that no one asked for;
Got to compare a vortex 5x prism to the tiny burris 3x prism. At least inside the store I struggled to say the vortex really magnified any better, but it was obvious the burris had far more FOV and was of course 2/3rd the price. If anyone is looking for a light weight low magnification optic and can't afford an ACOG I think the burris wins handily.
That's good info! Even if no one asked for it. :D
I would love to see how that new Burris 3x compares to the Primary Arms offerings, as far as the glass goes, anyway. I thought the Burris has a pretty nice reticule, and I know PA puts a lot of thought into theirs (I just wish they would make some of them a bit bigger), so I think that aspect of it just comes down to personal preference. The glass, though, would be interesting to compare.
So yesterday my brother in law showed me something he found. Anyone else heard of these? I'm thinking on a carbine rifle and short range stuff. I have no optics ready pistol's yet.
https://www.seeallopensight.com/
I'm familiar with them and considered them for use on my SAR B6P but still haven't decided.
I spent a normal gut wrenching amount of time researching new optics for a dmr or recce rifle recently. And decided on an LPVO.
Amongst a large group of articles and videos on this subject. I found this pew pew article/review the most helpful. I have no idea how unbiased this guy is. But he consistantly comes across as honest and exhaustive in his use, research and knowledge of weapons and accessories. And always shows examples of his evidence. Like the images and videos of each scopes clarity shown in this article.
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-1-6x-scope/
Based on the above I decided on this lpvo.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle
It happens to be his recommendation for best 1x6. But also hits a sweet price point. I don't need a luepold priced optic. Simply based on the cost ratio of my rifle vs the optic I hope to use. And my own abilities with an iron sight. Which are relatively high. I don't see the utility in putting a $1500 optic on a $500 rifle. For example. Not that that is the price point of my rifle. But u get what I'm saying. Lipstick on a pig type thing.
I do have self built rifles in roughly that price range. But that was also from a bygone time. My go to AK for example is probably a $1200 rifle. But when I built it it was maybe $600 in parts. But still. For the 300 meters range I would like to achieve. A $250 optic is enough for me. Especially when considering the review above.
The author competes in 3 gun iirc. And highly endorses this optic. So its actually a type of optic he has alot if experience and interest in.
Prior to this research I really didn't understand the utility and value of an LPVO. Tactics and equipment change so frequently. I sometimes find it hard to keep up with all the research interests I have even just within prepping.
Thanks to you guys I'm able to find subjects worth spending time on. Hope this helps someone else.
Quote from: Moab on December 04, 2022, 06:26:47 PMI spent a normal gut wrenching amount of time researching new optics for a dmr or recce rifle recently. And decided on an LPVO.
Amongst a large group of articles and videos on this subject. I found this pew pew article/review the most helpful. I have no idea how unbiased this guy is. But he consistantly comes across as honest and exhaustive in his use, research and knowledge of weapons and accessories. And always shows examples of his evidence. Like the images and videos of each scopes clarity shown in this article.
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-1-6x-scope/
Based on the above I decided on this lpvo.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle
It happens to be his recommendation for best 1x6. But also hits a sweet price point. I don't need a luepold priced optic. Simply based on the cost ratio of my rifle vs the optic I hope to use. And my own abilities with an iron sight. Which are relatively high. I don't see the utility in putting a $1500 optic on a $500 rifle. For example. Not that that is the price point of my rifle. But u get what I'm saying. Lipstick on a pig type thing.
I do have self built rifles in roughly that price range. But that was also from a bygone time. My go to AK for example is probably a $1200 rifle. But when I built it it was maybe $600 in parts. But still. For the 300 meters range I would like to achieve. A $250 optic is enough for me. Especially when considering the review above.
The author competes in 3 gun iirc. And highly endorses this optic. So its actually a type of optic he has alot if experience and interest in.
Prior to this research I really didn't understand the utility and value of an LPVO. Tactics and equipment change so frequently. I sometimes find it hard to keep up with all the research interests I have even just within prepping.
Thanks to you guys I'm able to find subjects worth spending time on. Hope this helps someone else.
Welcome back :awesome:
Quote from: flybynight on December 04, 2022, 07:43:44 PMQuote from: Moab on December 04, 2022, 06:26:47 PMI spent a normal gut wrenching amount of time researching new optics for a dmr or recce rifle recently. And decided on an LPVO.
Amongst a large group of articles and videos on this subject. I found this pew pew article/review the most helpful. I have no idea how unbiased this guy is. But he consistantly comes across as honest and exhaustive in his use, research and knowledge of weapons and accessories. And always shows examples of his evidence. Like the images and videos of each scopes clarity shown in this article.
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-1-6x-scope/
Based on the above I decided on this lpvo.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle
It happens to be his recommendation for best 1x6. But also hits a sweet price point. I don't need a luepold priced optic. Simply based on the cost ratio of my rifle vs the optic I hope to use. And my own abilities with an iron sight. Which are relatively high. I don't see the utility in putting a $1500 optic on a $500 rifle. For example. Not that that is the price point of my rifle. But u get what I'm saying. Lipstick on a pig type thing.
I do have self built rifles in roughly that price range. But that was also from a bygone time. My go to AK for example is probably a $1200 rifle. But when I built it it was maybe $600 in parts. But still. For the 300 meters range I would like to achieve. A $250 optic is enough for me. Especially when considering the review above.
The author competes in 3 gun iirc. And highly endorses this optic. So its actually a type of optic he has alot if experience and interest in.
Prior to this research I really didn't understand the utility and value of an LPVO. Tactics and equipment change so frequently. I sometimes find it hard to keep up with all the research interests I have even just within prepping.
Thanks to you guys I'm able to find subjects worth spending time on. Hope this helps someone else.
Welcome back :awesome:
Thank you. 🌝
I'll echo what Flybynight said and say welcome back, Moab.
I've considered getting an LPVO for my AR, but mine is mostly set up for HD purposes and shorter range than an LPVO would be good for.
However, my next AR might have one on it since I'd like to go hog hunting at some point. It also wouldn't hurt to have an extra AR that could be used for targets at longer ranges than what I'm currently used to.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on December 04, 2022, 10:05:10 PMI'll echo what Flybynight said and say welcome back, Moab.
I've considered getting an LPVO for my AR, but mine is mostly set up for HD purposes and shorter range than an LPVO would be good for.
However, my next AR might have one on it since I'd like to go hog hunting at some point. It also wouldn't hurt to have an extra AR that could be used for targets at longer ranges than what I'm currently used to.
I've seen guys with quick release mounts for their LPVOs on their ARs. I do not know what sighting issues you'd have when replacing it back on. But that might kill two birds with one stone. So you could leave it off until you were forced to leave your home defense situation. Meaning you'd only need one AR.
But who I am to tell a guy NOT to buy another gun?!!! Lmao. I certainly don't tell myself that. Lol.
There's a guy on youtube called Bear who recently posted a great video on tactical rifle ownership. He's been around youtube and the firearms industry for awhile. His arsenal has included several ARs, several AKs and at least a few bolt actions. Like a different rifle for every possible situation. His recent final analysis was that you really only need one rifle. A dmr or recce rifle if you will. Basically an AR in 5.56 with an LPVO and a sling. He goes into much greater detail. But he makes an interesting argument. I'll post it up in another thread.
Quote from: Moab on December 04, 2022, 10:53:16 PMQuote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on December 04, 2022, 10:05:10 PMI'll echo what Flybynight said and say welcome back, Moab.
I've considered getting an LPVO for my AR, but mine is mostly set up for HD purposes and shorter range than an LPVO would be good for.
However, my next AR might have one on it since I'd like to go hog hunting at some point. It also wouldn't hurt to have an extra AR that could be used for targets at longer ranges than what I'm currently used to.
I've seen guys with quick release mounts for their LPVOs on their ARs. I do not know what sighting issues you'd have when replacing it back on. But that might kill two birds with one stone. So you could leave it off until you were forced to leave your home defense situation. Meaning you'd only need one AR.
But who I am to tell a guy NOT to buy another gun?!!! Lmao. I certainly don't tell myself that. Lol.
There's a guy on youtube called Bear who recently posted a great video on tactical rifle ownership. He's been around youtube and the firearms industry for awhile. His arsenal has included several ARs, several AKs and at least a few bolt actions. Like a different rifle for every possible situation. His recent final analysis was that you really only need one rifle. A dmr or recce rifle if you will. Basically an AR in 5.56 with an LPVO and a sling. He goes into much greater detail. But he makes an interesting argument. I'll post it up in another thread.
The mark of a quality QD optics mount is that taking if off an putting it back on you return to Zero. Only buy quality QD optics mounts or it defeats the purpose. They do work. But the mark of a quality optic is that it, itself can hold zero. A quality mount on a crappy optic and you won't be able to tell if its the mount or the optic.
My personal $$ ratio is the optic should cost at least as much as the rifle. I'm in the same boat building a recce rifle right now. And while I have a 1x Prismatic that I will put on it initially, the goal is a LPVO AND with an RMR offset site. But this build is going to be a really expensive build. So to follow my own rules the optic would be in the range of Trijicon or better. Clear glass and super accuracy melded between rifle and optics. But I won't be able to afford that right away, and since I've been known to buy budget optics to 'try out' to make sure they are optimal and useable, I was looking at the 1-8x24mm Primary Arms Raptor ACSS LPVO https://www.primaryarms.com/slx-first-focal-plane-1-8x24mm-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle . PA had and have SAVE12 12% code sales pretty frequently so make sure you wait for one of those to be active before you pull the trigger.
For perspective I'm ~$1500 in and only have a barrel, muzzle device, charging handle, forward assist, fire selector, mag release, upper, lower, and handguard.
Looks like this is going to be a slow build because most of what I want to put on this is b/o'd and of course the funding. It took nine months beforethe 'builders kit' was even available to order and then three months and a week before it shipped. So I'm probably going to be putting some existing parts on it and then change them out to what I want later.
(https://i.imgur.com/tSJrN5N.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/r9scDTR.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/nyQ0lhN.png)
The Sig Buckmaster 1500 laser rangefinder I ordered came in. Was worried they had either sent me a dead battery or the whole unit was DOA, but then I realized I was a dummy and there was a thin clear plastic wrap over the battery.
Quote from: Optimist on December 13, 2022, 07:17:17 PMThe Sig Buckmaster 1500 laser rangefinder I ordered came in. Was worried they had either sent me a dead battery or the whole unit was DOA, but then I realized I was a dummy and there was a thin clear plastic wrap over the battery.
I've done that. Not with a rangefinder, but with a flashlight.
The Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.
Quote from: Optimist on December 13, 2022, 07:17:17 PMThe Sig Buckmaster 1500 laser rangefinder I ordered came in. Was worried they had either sent me a dead battery or the whole unit was DOA, but then I realized I was a dummy and there was a thin clear plastic wrap over the battery.
Last year I bought new wiper blades for my jeep. They were really high tech. With this flourescent green edge. I put them on. And in the first rain they worked like shit. I was so pissed off. They just sloshed water from side to side. Barely getting the window clear. Later that day I took them off to return them. I was complaining to my son about how big a oiece of shit they were. On the second wiper blade I pulled a little hard. And the flourescent green edge slid a little.
The flourescent green edge was a plastic wiper edge protector. It slipped right off. Best wiper blades I've ever owned. Lmao. What a dumbass!
I've done the same with batteries too. With the little plastic strip sticking out. Lol.
Quote from: Optimist on January 18, 2023, 03:41:50 AMThe Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.
Its like an all in one unit?
I saw a super cheap thermal unit that connects to your phone. Assumed it was a pos. Care to give us an update on current night vision and thermal? Before I spend 5 hours going down the rabbit hole? ;)
Quote from: Moab on January 18, 2023, 06:22:15 AMQuote from: Optimist on January 18, 2023, 03:41:50 AMThe Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.
Its like an all in one unit?
It's not both night vision and thermal in one unit, you can get either one or the other. There are devices that are all-in-one night vision and thermal and they actually use a computer to combine both together, which is really cool but they crazy expensive and have atrocious battery life. I'm also guessing that they aren't even available to civilians but I'm not sure.
The cool thing about these Holosun units is that they are either night vision or thermal and they are also just a regular AEMS red dot. You can turn the NV/thermal off to save batteries and flip down the red dot lense cover and it works just like a regular red dot. Flip the cover back up and turn the NV/thermal sensor on and you get the digital display with the red dot overlaid on top of it.
They haven't given us much other details, like how waterproof it is, what resolution it is, warranty, etc. There also haven't been reviews, which I would want to see before buying one.
I also have a little bit of trepidation about buying a Chinese NV or thermal optic, in the sense that I might be contributing in a fairly direct way to the R&D of such devices for the CCP's armed forces.
Quote from: Moab on January 18, 2023, 06:22:15 AMI saw a super cheap thermal unit that connects to your phone. Assumed it was a pos. Care to give us an update on current night vision and thermal? Before I spend 5 hours going down the rabbit hole? ;)
I spent some time researching digital night vision and thermal about six months ago. I am not all that knowledgeable and have never actually used either, but I could give you my layman's understanding. Things have also been changing very rapidly in the digital night vision and thermal world, so I might already be out of date.
When it comes to night vision, I've mostly been looking at digital, which to my understanding is essentially just a digital camera optimized to working at night. The traditional night vision used by the military works in a different way and is much more expensive but also better.
Digital NV has a refresh rate that causes a slight delay, which can work on a hunting scope or if you're trying to do static observation but it's supposed to be much harder to use digital NV to walk around with. Most of what I've read is if you want night vision to help you get around at night you really should skip digital and save up to get traditional night vision
Battery life for digital night vision sucks. It's measured in hours, not days or years like other optics. Traditional night vision has much better battery life. One good thing is that is that newish models of digital night vision Scopes usually have a USB-C port that allows use of external battery banks. I emailed a vendor to ask about how robust these ports are, as I was worried that if the cable gets knocked around to much the plug might break the port. They emailed me back and said the USB-C ones are fairly sturdy, but one trick that is commonly used is a magnetic attachment for the USB cable so if it gets bumped or caught it will pop off without damaging the device.
Digital night vision is far more reliant on having additional IR illumination than Gen III traditional night vision. This is somewhat dependent on price, and you can get digital NV that can work about as good as traditional third generation night vision without additional illumination but at that point traditional night vision is actually cheaper and has a whole host of other advantages. If you're hunting having an IR flashlight turned on is no big deal, but if you're worried about bad guys who also have night vision it can give away your position just as badly as shining a regular flashlight around. On the other hand, you can use low-end digital NV as an IR detector to see if someone else with night vision is sneaking up on your place at night, or you could have motion sensor IR lights on your perimeter to detect people and animals moving around.
I suspect that digital night vision just isn't as robust as traditional night vision and certainly not as much as regular rifle Scopes and red dots. For example, I'm looking at getting a Pulsar Digex C50, which isn't cheap ($1500), comes from a well-regarded European manufacturer, has good water proof and shock proof ratings and is supposed to be able to work in subzero temperatures. Even with all that, the thing only has a one year warranty, which makes me think that something relying so much on electronics runs a higher chance of dying early unlike a regular rifle scope which can last just about indefinitely.
While I've mentioned a lot of the downsides there are a few advantages to digital night vision.
You don't have to worry about bright or constant lights damaging them like with traditional night vision (although a lot of modern traditional night vision will have an "auto-gating" feature to help prevent that).
Most have memory card slots and an options to record photos and videos. You can also hook up a long USB cable from them to a computer or tablet to remotely view through the scope. Some can even do this wirelessly and can connect to your cell phone.
Many can save multiple zeros, and can select multiple reticles. So you could for instance save a 55 grain zero and use it with a duplex crosshair and also have a 7+ grain zero saved and use it with a mil-dot crosshair. If you have a detachable mount that reliably returns to zero you could even swap the optic between multiple rifles.
There is a cool picture-in-picture mode that is pretty common where for example you might have most of the screen at 2x magnification but a smaller window is at 6x, both of them with crosshairs, so you can switch back and forth between higher magnification and better field of view just by glancing up or down without having to move your head or fiddle with controls.
Price is the biggest advantage. If you're mostly looking for something that works as a scope mounted to a rifle or a handheld monocular then decent digital night vision can be had for under $1000 (but you need an illuminator to see any distance). A PVS-14 with mount usually costs about $3000 IIRC (of course a PVS-14 is better in many ways).
When it comes to thermal everything is digital, so most everything I wrote about digital night vision (battery hog, able to record video, not as robust, etc.) also applies the thermal. There is no "traditional" thermal though, it's all digital.
A lot of military thermal is relatively robust and very high resolution, but it also costs as much as a car.
Hunting thermal optics can be had for a lot less money, and how much you need to spend depends on what kind of detail you need to see at what range. There are relatively cheap sub-$1000 thermal optics, and with them you might be able to the difference between a possum and a cat at fifteen yards, but at fifty yards you're only going to see blobs. That can still be useful if, for instance, you have a handheld thermal monocular you use to occasionally scan and then if you see an interesting blob you can use a night vision optic or a white light to try to identify it.
My understanding, which largely comes from The Late Night Vision Show, is that if you want a thermal optic for hunting where you want to be able to actually tell what type of animal you're looking at out to a couple hundred yards (as opposed to just being pretty sure it's a quadruped and not a biped) then you're probably looking at $3000 or more. Of course The Late Night Vision Show is put on by a night vision retailer (not a manufacturer of any one brand) so they want to sell us things, but they seem pretty honest in their reviews in that they will say when manufacturers are being overly-optimistic in identification ranges. I think with that show the one thing you have to read between the lines with is that they want need to maintain a good business relationship with optics manufacturers so if there is a bad product they just don't publish a review for it (they've said as much in some episodes).
Because most digital devices can record video, if there is a model you're interested in you can usually find through-the-scope hunting footage of it on YouTube. With thermal scopes you have to be mindful of what range the recorded video is showing. Many but not all reviewers will say. Judging distance through thermal optics is supposed to be a challenge and many higher-end ones are now coming with integrated laser rangefinders.
Most of what I've been researching is digital NV and thermal optics for hunting. One thing about that is most of the demand and development for that had been focused on hunting feral hogs in the Southeast US. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to check temperature ratings because many of these things aren't rated for anything colder than 20*F.
Again, things have been changing. The prices keep dropping and better quality ones keep coming out. On one hand if you wait something better for the same price is probably just ~2 years out, but I. The other hand with that attitude you might wait forever.
The way I figure it for myself is that the price of digital night vision scopes has gotten low enough for decent ones that they can be worth getting as long as their limitations are kept in mind. I plan to get one of those for a pest control rifle first. I'm going to wait a few years on thermal because I think that technology is less mature than digital NV and there is more room for it to rapidly improve. In a few years if I can't get something for $1000 that is as good as the $3000 optics available right now then I'll probably get an inexpensive handheld thermal monocular and wait a few years more.
My understanding is that traditional night vision is pretty mature and it's expensive because it's just dang expensive to produce. So if you bought a PVS-14 now then in ten years you'll still probably have something you consider a good investment. If you drop $10,000 on a thermal scope right now in ten years you might be getting something substantially better for under $2k.
Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about I just spent a little time researching it for fun last year.
My only experience with a thermal or NV optic is a scope that NT2C let me handle when he was in my AO back in 2019.
Quote from: Optimist on January 18, 2023, 07:38:52 PMQuote from: Moab on January 18, 2023, 06:22:15 AMQuote from: Optimist on January 18, 2023, 03:41:50 AMThe Holosun digital night vision and thermal are the most interesting things I've seen announced at SHOT so far. They haven't gone into much detail yet though.
Its like an all in one unit?
It's not both night vision and thermal in one unit, you can get either one or the other. There are devices that are all-in-one night vision and thermal and they actually use a computer to combine both together, which is really cool but they crazy expensive and have atrocious battery life. I'm also guessing that they aren't even available to civilians but I'm not sure.
The cool thing about these Holosun units is that they are either night vision or thermal and they are also just a regular AEMS red dot. You can turn the NV/thermal off to save batteries and flip down the red dot lense cover and it works just like a regular red dot. Flip the cover back up and turn the NV/thermal sensor on and you get the digital display with the red dot overlaid on top of it.
They haven't given us much other details, like how waterproof it is, what resolution it is, warranty, etc. There also haven't been reviews, which I would want to see before buying one.
I also have a little bit of trepidation about buying a Chinese NV or thermal optic, in the sense that I might be contributing in a fairly direct way to the R&D of such devices for the CCP's armed forces.
Quote from: Moab on January 18, 2023, 06:22:15 AMI saw a super cheap thermal unit that connects to your phone. Assumed it was a pos. Care to give us an update on current night vision and thermal? Before I spend 5 hours going down the rabbit hole? ;)
I spent some time researching digital night vision and thermal about six months ago. I am not all that knowledgeable and have never actually used either, but I could give you my layman's understanding. Things have also been changing very rapidly in the digital night vision and thermal world, so I might already be out of date.
When it comes to night vision, I've mostly been looking at digital, which to my understanding is essentially just a digital camera optimized to working at night. The traditional night vision used by the military works in a different way and is much more expensive but also better.
Digital NV has a refresh rate that causes a slight delay, which can work on a hunting scope or if you're trying to do static observation but it's supposed to be much harder to use digital NV to walk around with. Most of what I've read is if you want night vision to help you get around at night you really should skip digital and save up to get traditional night vision
Battery life for digital night vision sucks. It's measured in hours, not days or years like other optics. Traditional night vision has much better battery life. One good thing is that is that newish models of digital night vision Scopes usually have a USB-C port that allows use of external battery banks. I emailed a vendor to ask about how robust these ports are, as I was worried that if the cable gets knocked around to much the plug might break the port. They emailed me back and said the USB-C ones are fairly sturdy, but one trick that is commonly used is a magnetic attachment for the USB cable so if it gets bumped or caught it will pop off without damaging the device.
Digital night vision is far more reliant on having additional IR illumination than Gen III traditional night vision. This is somewhat dependent on price, and you can get digital NV that can work about as good as traditional third generation night vision without additional illumination but at that point traditional night vision is actually cheaper and has a whole host of other advantages. If you're hunting having an IR flashlight turned on is no big deal, but if you're worried about bad guys who also have night vision it can give away your position just as badly as shining a regular flashlight around. On the other hand, you can use low-end digital NV as an IR detector to see if someone else with night vision is sneaking up on your place at night, or you could have motion sensor IR lights on your perimeter to detect people and animals moving around.
I suspect that digital night vision just isn't as robust as traditional night vision and certainly not as much as regular rifle Scopes and red dots. For example, I'm looking at getting a Pulsar Digex C50, which isn't cheap ($1500), comes from a well-regarded European manufacturer, has good water proof and shock proof ratings and is supposed to be able to work in subzero temperatures. Even with all that, the thing only has a one year warranty, which makes me think that something relying so much on electronics runs a higher chance of dying early unlike a regular rifle scope which can last just about indefinitely.
While I've mentioned a lot of the downsides there are a few advantages to digital night vision.
You don't have to worry about bright or constant lights damaging them like with traditional night vision (although a lot of modern traditional night vision will have an "auto-gating" feature to help prevent that).
Most have memory card slots and an options to record photos and videos. You can also hook up a long USB cable from them to a computer or tablet to remotely view through the scope. Some can even do this wirelessly and can connect to your cell phone.
Many can save multiple zeros, and can select multiple reticles. So you could for instance save a 55 grain zero and use it with a duplex crosshair and also have a 7+ grain zero saved and use it with a mil-dot crosshair. If you have a detachable mount that reliably returns to zero you could even swap the optic between multiple rifles.
There is a cool picture-in-picture mode that is pretty common where for example you might have most of the screen at 2x magnification but a smaller window is at 6x, both of them with crosshairs, so you can switch back and forth between higher magnification and better field of view just by glancing up or down without having to move your head or fiddle with controls.
Price is the biggest advantage. If you're mostly looking for something that works as a scope mounted to a rifle or a handheld monocular then decent digital night vision can be had for under $1000 (but you need an illuminator to see any distance). A PVS-14 with mount usually costs about $3000 IIRC (of course a PVS-14 is better in many ways).
When it comes to thermal everything is digital, so most everything I wrote about digital night vision (battery hog, able to record video, not as robust, etc.) also applies the thermal. There is no "traditional" thermal though, it's all digital.
A lot of military thermal is relatively robust and very high resolution, but it also costs as much as a car.
Hunting thermal optics can be had for a lot less money, and how much you need to spend depends on what kind of detail you need to see at what range. There are relatively cheap sub-$1000 thermal optics, and with them you might be able to the difference between a possum and a cat at fifteen yards, but at fifty yards you're only going to see blobs. That can still be useful if, for instance, you have a handheld thermal monocular you use to occasionally scan and then if you see an interesting blob you can use a night vision optic or a white light to try to identify it.
My understanding, which largely comes from The Late Night Vision Show, is that if you want a thermal optic for hunting where you want to be able to actually tell what type of animal you're looking at out to a couple hundred yards (as opposed to just being pretty sure it's a quadruped and not a biped) then you're probably looking at $3000 or more. Of course The Late Night Vision Show is put on by a night vision retailer (not a manufacturer of any one brand) so they want to sell us things, but they seem pretty honest in their reviews in that they will say when manufacturers are being overly-optimistic in identification ranges. I think with that show the one thing you have to read between the lines with is that they want need to maintain a good business relationship with optics manufacturers so if there is a bad product they just don't publish a review for it (they've said as much in some episodes).
Because most digital devices can record video, if there is a model you're interested in you can usually find through-the-scope hunting footage of it on YouTube. With thermal scopes you have to be mindful of what range the recorded video is showing. Many but not all reviewers will say. Judging distance through thermal optics is supposed to be a challenge and many higher-end ones are now coming with integrated laser rangefinders.
Most of what I've been researching is digital NV and thermal optics for hunting. One thing about that is most of the demand and development for that had been focused on hunting feral hogs in the Southeast US. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to check temperature ratings because many of these things aren't rated for anything colder than 20*F.
Again, things have been changing. The prices keep dropping and better quality ones keep coming out. On one hand if you wait something better for the same price is probably just ~2 years out, but I. The other hand with that attitude you might wait forever.
The way I figure it for myself is that the price of digital night vision scopes has gotten low enough for decent ones that they can be worth getting as long as their limitations are kept in mind. I plan to get one of those for a pest control rifle first. I'm going to wait a few years on thermal because I think that technology is less mature than digital NV and there is more room for it to rapidly improve. In a few years if I can't get something for $1000 that is as good as the $3000 optics available right now then I'll probably get an inexpensive handheld thermal monocular and wait a few years more.
My understanding is that traditional night vision is pretty mature and it's expensive because it's just dang expensive to produce. So if you bought a PVS-14 now then in ten years you'll still probably have something you consider a good investment. If you drop $10,000 on a thermal scope right now in ten years you might be getting something substantially better for under $2k.
Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about I just spent a little time researching it for fun last year.
Thank you so much. That saved me a weeks worth of time researching this. SO what is your intended use? Which animals are you targeting? What ranges? That NV from EU is the one your getting? What are you attaching it too? Does caliber matter like in LVPO's?
A few things I forgot to mention:
Most all digital night vision and thermal are fixed power and the zoom is digital, so as you zoom in the picture gets grainier and grainier. That means even if a manufacturer says their optic with a 2x magnification can zoom up to 32x, it's probably only actually useful to zoom in to maybe 10x.
A lot of the optics have a focus ring/knob that is supposed to be very helpful for getting a clear picture. Some low end ones don't come with this feature.(I think so e of the high-end ones have computer-aided focusing, but I don't remember and I didn't spend much time researching stuff way out of my price range.)
Field of view is generally worse than is normal for traditional rifle scopes.
IR flashlights often glow with a soft red light. Most hunters don't seem to have a problem spooking game, but it might give you away if you're trying to be sneaky.
There are "clip-on" units that mate up with the front of a regular rifle scope, so you can take the night vision or thermal device off during the day and put it on at night. Most hunters that do reviews on YouTube seemed to dislike these but I don't remember why and I never looked much into it.
Quote from: Moab on January 18, 2023, 08:18:32 PMThank you so much. That saved me a weeks worth of time researching this. SO what is your intended use? Which animals are you targeting? What ranges? That NV from EU is the one your getting? What are you attaching it too? Does caliber matter like in LVPO's?
The optic I have been looking at is the Pulsar Digex C50 (https://www.pulsar-nv.com/gbr/products/33/night-vision-riflescopes/pulsar-digex-c/), and I'm planning on putting it on a bolt-action Savage in .223.
(about:invalid)
The main reason I started looking at this particular optic is that it is rated to work at -13F. Where I live most of the time it's dark is in the winter, and the clear nights when hunting would be best are the coldest. I think I'm terms of night vision performance a cheaper scope would work for me, but this is the only one that is supposed to work at subzero temperatures which aren't rare where I live.
The reason why I started looking at night vision is that I raise livestock and we have a predator problem. I've been losing on average about a dozen birds a year, which adds up to a decent chunk of money. Canines are the biggest culprits (fox, coyote and one particularly destructive stray dog). Coyotes were so scarce when I was a kid that I didn't even know they lived in this state until I was a teenager. Over the last maybe ten years their population has gone way up.
The place my birds are at is surrounded. Y a hay field. I'm mostly looking at 200-300 yards, with the possibility of being right up close when they come in to get my birds and potentially out to 500 yards depending on which direction they run. Mostly what I've shot has been right up close with a shotgun, but the coyotes are so fast that by the time I grab my gun and head out the door they're already halfway across the field. I think this optic can do a few hundred yards but only with additional illumination.
There are a few other good things I like about the Pulsar Digex C50.
It's also a full-color daylight scope, which I like because my Savage rifle is the most accurate rifle I own and it would be a shame to have it be relegated to only night time. The scope also has some sort of enhanced twilight mode that is supposed to be full color and better than your naked I can see in dim light, which is cool because there are hours and hours of twilight here most of the year.
The way the scope is designed it has the lense and sensor in the front, the display in the rear and between them is a narrower tube that holds the internal battery. This means it can fit in regular scope rings. Many digital night vision and thermal Scopes have a shorter and boxier shape, which is fine on ARs but my understanding is that on bolt-actions you sometimes need a reverse-cantilever setup to get the display close enough to your eye.
It's supposed to be very solidly built. It's IPX7 waterproof, works in the cold and is shock resistant enough to mount on .375 H&H* rifles and 12 gauge shotguns. The company has a good reputation.
There are a number of downsides to this optic though.
It's very expensive! And unlike normal expensive rifle scopes I don't think it will hold it's value nearly as well and I'm not sure how long it will keep functioning. At $1500 I sure hope it lasts for many years, but IIRC the warranty is only for one year.
It's heavy and bulky. Not something I would want to pack around for long distances, but that's not how I'm planning to use it.
It uses weird batteries that have to be ordered. It also has the option of using a normal USB external battery bank, which allays my fears somewhat.
As far as digital night vision scopes go I think it would be relatively good at long range (by night vision standards) but not very good at close range.
*As a matter of fact I do have a rifle in .375 H&H, and I've been waffling for years about what kind of optic to put on it. If I get a reliable quick-detach mount I might be able to switch this optic back and forth between my .223 and my .375, and that way I could still run my .375 with irons as a brush gun.
As far as caliber concerns like with LVPOs I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean does it have a BDC reticle specific to a particular cartridge then most I have seen don't. Many have changeable reticles in the menu options (the C50 I'm looking at has ten options but I'm not sure what they all are). You might need to look at what recoil the optics are rated for, as some might only be intended for intermediate cartridges.
Quote from: Optimist on January 19, 2023, 11:27:08 PMA few things I forgot to mention:
Most all digital night vision and thermal are fixed power and the zoom is digital, so as you zoom in the picture gets grainier and grainier. That means even if a manufacturer says their optic with a 2x magnification can zoom up to 32x, it's probably only actually useful to zoom in to maybe 10x.
A lot of the optics have a focus ring/knob that is supposed to be very helpful for getting a clear picture. Some low end ones don't come with this feature.(I think so e of the high-end ones have computer-aided focusing, but I don't remember and I didn't spend much time researching stuff way out of my price range.)
Field of view is generally worse than is normal for traditional rifle scopes.
IR flashlights often glow with a soft red light. Most hunters don't seem to have a problem spooking game, but it might give you away if you're trying to be sneaky.
There are "clip-on" units that mate up with the front of a regular rifle scope, so you can take the night vision or thermal device off during the day and put it on at night. Most hunters that do reviews on YouTube seemed to dislike these but I don't remember why and I never looked much into it.
Quote from: Moab on January 18, 2023, 08:18:32 PMThank you so much. That saved me a weeks worth of time researching this. SO what is your intended use? Which animals are you targeting? What ranges? That NV from EU is the one your getting? What are you attaching it too? Does caliber matter like in LVPO's?
The optic I have been looking at is the Pulsar Digex C50 (https://www.pulsar-nv.com/gbr/products/33/night-vision-riflescopes/pulsar-digex-c/), and I'm planning on putting it on a bolt-action Savage in .223.
The main reason I started looking at this particular optic is that it is rated to work at -13F. Where I live most of the time it's dark is in the winter, and the clear nights when hunting would be best are the coldest. I think I'm terms of night vision performance a cheaper scope would work for me, but this is the only one that is supposed to work at subzero temperatures which aren't rare where I live.
The reason why I started looking at night vision is that I raise livestock and we have a predator problem. I've been losing on average about a dozen birds a year, which adds up to a decent chunk of money. Canines are the biggest culprits (fox, coyote and one particularly destructive stray dog). Coyotes were so scarce when I was a kid that I didn't even know they lived in this state until I was a teenager. Over the last maybe ten years their population has gone way up.
The place my birds are at is surrounded. Y a hay field. I'm mostly looking at 200-300 yards, with the possibility of being right up close when they come in to get my birds and potentially out to 500 yards depending on which direction they run. Mostly what I've shot has been right up close with a shotgun, but the coyotes are so fast that by the time I grab my gun and head out the door they're already halfway across the field. I think this optic can do a few hundred yards but only with additional illumination.
There are a few other good things I like about the Pulsar Digex C50.
It's also a full-color daylight scope, which I like because my Savage rifle is the most accurate rifle I own and it would be a shame to have it be relegated to only night time. The scope also has some sort of enhanced twilight mode that is supposed to be full color and better than your naked I can see in dim light, which is cool because there are hours and hours of twilight here most of the year.
The way the scope is designed it has the lense and sensor in the front, the display in the rear and between them is a narrower tube that holds the internal battery. This means it can fit in regular scope rings. Many digital night vision and thermal Scopes have a shorter and boxier shape, which is fine on ARs but my understanding is that on bolt-actions you sometimes need a reverse-cantilever setup to get the display close enough to your eye.
It's supposed to be very solidly built. It's IPX7 waterproof, works in the cold and is shock resistant enough to mount on .375 H&H* rifles and 12 gauge shotguns. The company has a good reputation.
There are a number of downsides to this optic though.
It's very expensive! And unlike normal expensive rifle scopes I don't think it will hold it's value nearly as well and I'm not sure how long it will keep functioning. At $1500 I sure hope it lasts for many years, but IIRC the warranty is only for one year.
It's heavy and bulky. Not something I would want to pack around for long distances, but that's not how I'm planning to use it.
It uses weird batteries that have to be ordered. It also has the option of using a normal USB external battery bank, which allays my fears somewhat.
As far as digital night vision scopes go I think it would be relatively good at long range (by night vision standards) but not very good at close range.
*As a matter of fact I do have a rifle in .375 H&H, and I've been waffling for years about what kind of optic to put on it. If I get a reliable quick-detach mount I might be able to switch this optic back and forth between my .223 and my .375, and that way I could still run my .375 with irons as a brush gun.
As far as caliber concerns like with LVPOs I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean does it have a BDC reticle specific to a particular cartridge then most I have seen don't. Many have changeable reticles in the menu options (the C50 I'm looking at has ten options but I'm not sure what they all are). You might need to look at what recoil the optics are rated for, as some might only be intended for intermediate cartridges.
"You might need to look at what recoil the optics are rated for, as some might only be intended for intermediate cartridges."
This what I was asking about. Recoil rating.
Sounds like an expensive proposition. But you have the need.
Thanks so much for the write up! If I could only live one place it would be Alaska. :)
Even with all my long-winded rambling I forgot to mention the two other reasons I've been wanting to get a night vision device.
The first one is that I'm interested in seeing how my stuff looks under night vision.
The second is to be able to scan and try to see if some people are trying to sneak up on us at night either using a dim light or their own night vision. Night vision is becoming more and more common, so I think there is more risk of bad guys using it.
Both of those reasons are more tinfoil hat, but the world has seemed somewhat more scary to me the last few years. Not just because of the big global events but because I've seen a bunch more people online who have a lot of gear and training and who also have (IMO) nihilistic attitudes and bad intentions. I don't know if these people were always so prevalent and I just happen to be noticing them more often, or if there are a lot more of them recently.
For both of the above two reasons I think an inexpensive handheld might suit my purposes fine, but I want the scope for non-SHTF reasons.
Quote from: Optimist on January 20, 2023, 09:40:04 PMEven with all my long-winded rambling I forgot to mention the two other reasons I've been wanting to get a night vision device.
The first one is that I'm interested in seeing how my stuff looks under night vision.
The second is to be able to scan and try to see if some people are trying to sneak up on us at night either using a dim light or their own night vision. Night vision is becoming more and more common, so I think there is more risk of bad guys using it.
Both of those reasons are more tinfoil hat, but the world has seemed somewhat more scary to me the last few years. Not just because of the big global events but because I've seen a bunch more people online who have a lot of gear and training and who also have (IMO) nihilistic attitudes and bad intentions. I don't know if these people were always so prevalent and I just happen to be noticing them more often, or if there are a lot more of them recently.
For both of the above two reasons I think an inexpensive handheld might suit my purposes fine, but I want the scope for non-SHTF reasons.
I feel the same way and have a theory. I think the economy has gotten so bad that there are alot more desperate people than there were say 5 years ago. Just look at the amount of homeless. The breaking down of unions over the last four decades. A $7.25 federal minimum wage. Rents and houses skyhigh.
Here in LA I used to feel safe. I'm 6'3" 250 though. And an ex-marine type. I never carried a weapon. Occassionally had a pistol in a lockbox in my vehicle. But only when working.
Now I find myself carrying a knife everywhere. I'm not a ninja. But at least I have a last resort. I can get a ccw now here. But have not applied yet for various reasons. But seriously wanting too.
There is just a different vibe right now. People seem more on edge. More car breakins in my vehicles. People where I shop seem to be more desparate. And more on edge. You used to hear alot of honking in traffic. Not so much anymore. Because I think people are more afraid to. More shootings on the freeways. More cartel activity in socal. I had an employee kidnapped and killed in Tijuana.
I honestly don't want to live here any longer. But my wife is very sick. We live in a normally very safe town. But like I said alot more vehicle thefts here. Criminals used to be afraid to come here. Not anymore. And the bad area of the city is only a mile or so away. Its just a freeway that separates this place. And there are alot more people on the otherside than on this side.
So ya. I agree. Plus drug addiction is no longer confined. Just as likely to have a meth lab and big market in a rural town as a city.
Quote from: Moab on January 21, 2023, 01:04:35 AMI feel the same way and have a theory. I think the economy has gotten so bad that there are alot more desperate people than there were say 5 years ago. Just look at the amount of homeless. The breaking down of unions over the last four decades. A $7.25 federal minimum wage. Rents and houses skyhigh.
That makes sense to me. I think that also even people who are still making an okay living are seeing all the difficulty and picking up a sense of foreboding and unease.
I tested out my inexpensive Sig 1500 laser rangefinder in the woods around my place. In the new growth the furthest sightline I could get was a little under a hundred yards, and in the old growth I got out to 180. This is in the winter so no leaves and I'm several feet higher up than I would be in the summer. I'm curious to see how far I'll be able to reach but I'd be surprised if I can get past 50 yards, and mostly a lot closer than that as the bushes are very thick. It was a warm day so I didn't get a chance to test how well the laser rangefinder works in the cold. I did have issues with my breath fogging the lenses, like happens with most all glass.
Primary arms came out with a LPVO in the $330 price range. Available for pre order. Buy when they have a SAVE10 or SAVE12 coupon though.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-4-illuminated-acss-nova-fiber-wire-reticle
There's a ton of reviews on Youtube. I've watched a few, and most are positive. I think I've decided not to buy the less expensive LPVO to 'try out' before getting the one I want. But this one would have been the one i'd get if was going to stick with that plan. I'm all in on this Recce build now.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on March 30, 2023, 04:21:25 PMPrimary arms came out with a LPVO in the $330 price range. Available for pre order. Buy when they have a SAVE10 or SAVE12 coupon though.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-4-illuminated-acss-nova-fiber-wire-reticle
There's a ton of reviews on Youtube. I've watched a few, and most are positive. I think I've decided not to buy the less expensive LPVO to 'try out' before getting the one I want. But this one would have been the one i'd get if was going to stick with that plan. I'm all in on this Recce build now.
What separates from the gen3? This scope has been at the top of my list for awhile. I understand the reticle is different. And I kind of like the simolicity of the nova. But just curious how much better it might be?
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle
It took so long for the Pulsar Digex C50 to get back in stock that now another digital night vision scope that can work in subzero temperatures has come onto the market. It's the AGM Neith, and it's $800 with a good quality mount compared to the Pulsar's $1400.
I'm thinking I might get the AGM instead. It does pretty much everything the Pulsar does, but from the videos I've watched the image quality and refresh rate is not quite as good. There's a few other smaller considerations:
*The AGM uses standard 18650 batteries compared to the Pulsar's proprietary batteries
*The AGM comes with a mount, the Pulsar has a form factor designed for bolt-actions where I'll probably have to get a reverse-cantilever rail to use the AGM
*The Pulsar is made in Europe while I'm not sure where the AGM is made (I suspect China).
*The Pulsar is rated up to .375 H&H. I have one of those and wouldn't mind being able to put it on that as well. The AGM says it is rated for up to 750g but I'm not sure what that means.
Overall I'd rather have the Pulsar, but the way digital night vision is advancing I don't think it's worth having something top-of-the-line at the moment and rather it's probably better to get something cheaper and then get another cheaper thing in a few years rather than get something twice as expensive and trying to make it work twice as long. The problem was before that none of the cheaper ones worked in cold weather.
I need to look into the recoil rating before making up my mind. Also I think Behring came out with a new digital night vision scope at SHOT but I haven't looked into that one yet.
I'm planning on adding another BCA upper for Nut Job (https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?msg=51400), this one in .224 Valkyrie. I think I've settled on this Primary Arms SLx 5-25x56 FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Apollo Reticle - 6.5CR / .224V (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-5-25x56-ffp-rifle-scope-illuminated-acss-apollo-6-5cm-reticle) for the glass I want on it.
And, of course, no sooner do I decide on this Primary Arms SLx 5-25x56 FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Apollo Reticle - 6.5CR / .224V (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-5-25x56-ffp-rifle-scope-illuminated-acss-apollo-6-5cm-reticle) for the glass I want then I get the new Midway catalog with this Burris Xtreme Tactical XTR II F-Class Rifle Scope (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009271353?pid=250583) on sale. (Oddly, $629 on the mailer but $599 on the site)
So, that begs the question: Which one? Either is doable with what the wife just said to me. Both are good glass.
Well, Primary Arms just made the choice a LOT easier. I was really leaning their way and would probably have bought their scope this weekend but while I was looking at the page I noticed that they were offering a military discount but I had to link my IDMe account. No problem as I've been okayed through IDMe for years now, both as a veteran and (formerly) as an active first responder. So I clicked the links, got sent to IDMe, logged in there, approved letting PA see my status, got taken back to my PA account page which now showed a banner saying I was approved for the military pricing but that I should log out and log back in to allow the prices to change.
The goddamned price went UP $30! It went from $479.99 to $509.99! WTAF?
I tried chatting but, of course, it's after "business hours" (when will companies understand that if you have a site that sells 24/7 then that's your damn business hours?) so I got an AI chatbot that was clueless. I left a rant to customer service (mostly polite, I said "feces" instead of "shit") but I'd be really surprised if anything came of it. I'm not a high-value customer for them, just a guy who bought some optics in the past.
Primary Arms Customer Service responds:
QuoteGood morning,
Thank you for contacting Primary Arms. I apologize for any inconvenience. I understand your frustration and disappointment. At Primary Arms, our goal is to provide our customers with the best possible experience since we hold customer satisfaction to the highest standard and ensuring your complete happiness is paramount. Occasionally when Primary Arms has a promotional sale on items, it offers a better discount than the one offered through ID.me. When this is the case, we recommend checking out as a guest or calling us and having us honor the better of the two prices. Please accept my sincerest apologies for falling short of your expectations.
I appreciate your feedback, and we are committed to making sure that you have a positive experience with our company. I apologize again for any inconvenience.
If you have any questions or concerns, please contact us.
Sincerely,
Lynzey
Customer Service
3219 S Sam Houston Pkwy E. Houston, TX 77047
Info@primaryarms.com - 713.344.9600
Yeah, so, in order to not get cheated with higher prices I should not log in and just check out as a guest, there by not having a record of the sale on my account for future warranty claims or credits.
Meanwhile, I logged into Midway USA to put the Burris scope in my basket. Midway also has the same IDMe info on my account that Primary Arms does, so I was expecting to see a similar result... nope! The Midway sale price of $629.99 went DOWN another $30 to cover my 10% discount. Automatically. Without checking out as a guest or calling customer service.
Guess which of the two I just got the okay from the wife to buy immediately? Guess which company I will no longer do business with?
Yeah, Primary Arms... you're dead to me now. :smiley_nah:
Edit: The Burris has been purchased from Midway USA
Just sent PA a reply to their response, in which I ripped them a new one for their actual treatment of veterans as second-class customers and told them quite frankly that I would be sharing this on my web site, social media, and with the members of veteran organizations that I am a proud member of, notably the American Legion, the Patriot Guard Riders, and Vietnam Veterans of America.
Well, after multiple email attempts and two telephone calls, trying to communicate with "Billy" from Primary Arms "Customer Service Management" to see what he meant by a "GREAT deal" by way of making things right over the screwup with prices for vets, I still have not heard anything back from him and frankly, I'm done with Primary Arms at this point.
It's pretty sad that first they charge vets a price increase, then their Customer Service rep screws up and gives asinine advice on how to bypass the problem, then Customer Service Management screws up the apology and totally ghosts me, the customer. That's just pitiful and I don't need to send any of my money to such a pitiful company.