A reminder, we don't discuss politics but this can affect a lot of things.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-heads-pennsylvania-pre-convention-040012333.html
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/possible-gunfire-breaks-out-trump-rally-pennsylvania
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/election-biden-trump-07-13-24/index.html
Representative from Pennsylvania who was in attendance. Said a woman next to him and other people were hit.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/13/us/biden-trump-election
Info from MPMalloy says the AP reports the suspected gunman and 1 other are dead.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on July 13, 2024, 06:40:35 PMInfo from MPMalloy says the AP reports the suspected gunman and 1 other are dead.
Newest info
- Trump's campaign released a statement saying the former president was "fine."
- Trump was hit by gunfire and the person who took the shots is dead, The Washington Post reported.
- An audience member was killed and a second person is in serious condition, according to Butler County District Attorney Richard Goldinger
I can't believe this is happening.
Quote from: majorhavoc on July 13, 2024, 07:09:55 PMI can't believe this is happening.
With the way this country has been divided the past few decades, I think it was inevitable.
Quote from: NT2C on July 13, 2024, 07:18:28 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on July 13, 2024, 07:09:55 PMI can't believe this is happening.
With the way this country has been divided the past few decades, I think it was inevitable.
I know. I'm just in shock right now. Shock.
One thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.
I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.
My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.
Shooter and one bystander reported dead.
Quote from: Moab on July 13, 2024, 07:34:28 PMOne thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.
I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.
My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.
My advice to you, and to others, is request an absentee ballot and vote from a safer location.
Quote from: NT2C on July 13, 2024, 07:36:21 PMQuote from: Moab on July 13, 2024, 07:34:28 PMOne thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.
I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.
My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.
My advice to you, and to others, is request an absentee ballot and vote from a safer location.
Completely agree.
I will keep an eye on the situation. But I may plan a hotel stay at least 3 or 4 hrs north of here. Just so we can travel and not get stuck in an LA exodus.
Because that will not be an exodus. It will be parking lot on every road and freeway going north.
This is a seismic moment. Nothing's going to be the same after today.
What have we become?
Quote from: majorhavoc on July 13, 2024, 07:39:43 PMThis is a seismic moment. Nothing's going to be the same after today.
What have we become?
No kidding!
I understand the frustration. Considering our economy. Which affects everyone. No matter your politics. But our ability to agree to disagree or have any type of level headed discussion. Has disappeared.
But also any leader willing to stand up and remind us we are one country, one people, and to just calm down. Respect one another. And not do anything rash.
Great leaders of any faction have appeared to disappear as well. Where are the level headed leaders of America? I think everyone has just felt this feeling of being on a rudderless ship for so long. That panic has set in.
My wife's last day was Thursday. We are both retired now. If things go crazy in November. We will be sitting at home that night listening to the coyotes howl and the owls hoot
Quote from: majorhavoc on July 13, 2024, 07:09:55 PMI can't believe this is happening.
I can't believe something like this hasn't happened sooner
America is like a badly damaged refinery......................and the loonies
on both sides are dancing around with roman candles
Quote from: aikorob on July 13, 2024, 08:53:27 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on July 13, 2024, 07:09:55 PMI can't believe this is happening.
I can't believe something like this hasn't happened sooner
America is like a badly damaged refinery......................and the loonies on both sides are dancing around with roman candles
Yes, on both sides.
By way of clarification, I was simply giving voice to my shock. I knew something like this could happen. But I think part of me
didn't want to believe it would happen. Our one civil war started over competing economic systems and fundamental disagreement about the primacy of states' rights. But a world war started over an assassination not altogether different than the attempted one today. This could be the start of a next civil war. I still don't think it will quite come to that, but if it does, the beginning stages could look a lot like this.
More than ever, I appeciate UFOZS as a safe space for people to come together and find common ground. A zone of sanity in a world that seems to be spinning increasingly off kilter. We're all over the map politically, religously and philosophically (more so than some might realize), but
I don't care. We're each so much more than who we support or what our view of the world is. We can't be judging people like that and start acting on those judgements. I don't understand why that's so hard for some people (again,
on both sides) to grasp.
Please, everyone:
take care in the days, weeks and months ahead.
Did I mention that I just happened to order more AR mags right before I found out this happened?
Quote from: NT2C on July 13, 2024, 09:57:10 PMDid I mention that I just happened to order more AR mags right before I found out this happened?
I ordered 10 more PMags right before the 2016 election. Although my calculus was considerably different than I suspect yours is now. Most of those are still in their retail packaging and I pray they will forever stay that way.
Regardless, it's hard to argue that either wasn't a wise investment.
Quote from: aikorob on July 13, 2024, 08:53:27 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on July 13, 2024, 07:09:55 PMI can't believe this is happening.
I can't believe something like this hasn't happened sooner
America is like a badly damaged refinery......................and the loonies on both sides are dancing around with roman candles
I agree and that is good analogy.
Honestly I am not surprised.
Quote from: Moab on July 13, 2024, 07:34:28 PMOne thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.
I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.
My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.
I work in a big government building sharing a campus with a municipal and county courthouse to the NE and a local university immediately across the pavilion to the south. The area polling station is directly downstairs in the council overflow chambers. I DO NOT FEEL SAFE. Dad keeps talking me down saying Police/SWAT is literally up the street and I'm literally in the safest place I could be outside of NORAD. I've had a bleeder kit packed in my work bag for over two years now.
Quote from: majorhavoc on July 13, 2024, 07:39:43 PMThis is a seismic moment. Nothing's going to be the same after today.
What have we become?
In a word? Afraid.
I can't help but think what the world might look like had that shot been 1/2 inch to the right. Those are not kind thoughts.
I do hope the other victims and their families are not forgotten.
I will watch the investigation with great interest.
Very near to my old area and I actually have friends in that location for Law Enforcement and at the Hospital. No one was around for all of it, but def adds a personal feeling to the whole thing even though I'm out in the frontier.
There's a million ways to slice this and a million more ways it will go before the first settles.
I'll just say, things about to get real weird over the few months. And only get weirder.
Quote from: flybynight on July 13, 2024, 08:49:17 PMMy wife's last day was Thursday. We are both retired now. If things go crazy in November. We will be sitting at home that night listening to the coyotes howl and the owls hoot
My mother is 80. Her last day at Hobby Lobby was yesterday.
Quote from: NT2C on July 13, 2024, 09:57:10 PMDid I mention that I just happened to order more AR mags right before I found out this happened?
All of my rifles that I shipped out of state over fear of laws getting so crazy here. Arrive back to me on Tuesday. I've been working on this for about two months. I'll be at the gun store signing for them that day. So I can pick them up once the obligatory 10 day waiting period is up. I also have a trip planned to LAX ammo this week. It's one of the largest ammo manufacturers in CA. And is about two miles from me. I have a fairly good stock. But this trip will complete my ammo preps.
When you do a search on the ( announced)name of gunman. The results are all sites from India, China, russian or some kind of Latino. Weird and troubling
From the "Color Me Shocked & Surprised...not" files:
WSJ is reporting that the shooter used a *gasp* "AR-style rifle" and has started the call for them to be banned. I'd link to the article but a) it's behind a paywall and, b) linking to the article just increases its ranking.
I'm now seeing evidence that he was hit by multiple shots. He wears a vest and it appears that at least one round impacted it and that another may have clipped his right arm. I'd like to point to a video covering this but, as is to be expected, a lot of the coverage of this is political to hell and back.
Quote from: NT2C on July 14, 2024, 08:40:34 AMI'm now seeing evidence that he was hit by multiple shots. He wears a vest and it appears that at least one round impacted it and that another may have clipped his right arm. I'd like to point to a video covering this but, as is to be expected, a lot of the coverage of this is political to hell and back.
So true. Thanks to this, I'm taking everything I find out with a beach full of salt.
Having watched myriad videos of all different angles captured, I got a question/observation.
It seemed to me that it took a little too long for the Secret Service to grab Trump and get him down.
Is it just me?
I won't pretend I know the training/procedure for the agents, but it really struck me as a *delayed reaction* situation.
I'm old, and have seen a few assassination attempts and assassinations on live t.v. Most of the time, I was impressed by the split-second reactions of SS or LEOs.
This time, not so much.
Although the *surrounding him with their bodies* moment was impressive and (to me) well rehearsed and executed.
Still...the little bit of time lag seemed concerning to me.
Any other opinions on this? Was it just, I dunno, such a surprise? I mean, Trump had already been struck and was reacting to it AND more shots were being fired before SS did their thing.
Maybe I am looking at it wrong.
Quote from: Lambykins on July 14, 2024, 08:56:27 AMHaving watched myriad videos of all different angles captured, I got a question/observation.
It seemed to me that it took a little too long for the Secret Service to grab Trump and get him down.
Is it just me?
I won't pretend I know the training/procedure for the agents, but it really struck me as a *delayed reaction* situation.
I'm old, and have seen a few assassination attempts and assassinations on live t.v. Most of the time, I was impressed by the split-second reactions of SS or LEOs.
This time, not so much.
Although the *surrounding him with their bodies* moment was impressive and (to me) well rehearsed and executed.
Still...the little bit of time lag seemed concerning to me.
Any other opinions on this? Was it just, I dunno, such a surprise? I mean, Trump had already been struck and was reacting to it AND more shots were being fired before SS did their thing.
Maybe I am looking at it wrong.
No you are not wrong the scum was spotted several minutes and LEOs were notified and they did nothing. There are several interviews with corroborating videos.
The delay was either sloppy or intentional.
The rejoicing and praise for the scum on social media just shows the level and extent of animosity. There is no reason to believe that the same level of animosity does not exist within the .gov agencies.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/fbi-yet-to-identify-motive-behind-gunman-thomas-matthew-crooks-attempted-assassination-of-trump-during-pa-rally/
Law enforcement officials admitted it was "surprising" how the gunman was able to get so many shots off in the attempted assassination on former President Donald Trump before he was taken out by Secret Service snipers.
During a press conference early Sunday, officials from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Pennsylvania State Police deferred several questions about security to the Secret Service — who were notably absent.
When asked if he was surprised at the number of shots the gunman was able to take at a former president, Kevin Rojek, special agent in charge of the FBI's Pittsburgh field office, said: "It is surprising but, to get all the details of that will come out later in the investigation
I don't think it was intentional, I think it was sloppy.
Quote from: Lambykins on July 14, 2024, 09:12:49 AMI don't think it was intentional, I think it was sloppy.
The reaction by the.gov will tell volumes.
The director of the USSS personally turned down requests for added security to the USSS detail.
If it was sloppy, a bunch of people need walking papers. The fallout from this should overcome any bureaucratic inertia in that case.
I'm seeing reports that multiple attendees pointed the shooter out to law enforcement present, but their concerns were dismissed. I'm looking to verify if that actually happened.
ETA: Never mind. I somehow missed that that Raptor already mentioned that.
Having known a lot of folks in the military, having my dad in 25 years, growing up in the military and loving going to the rifle range as a *treat* as a kid, having briefly been in myself, having had a son in Green Beret, having dated a few guys in special forces over the years...
There are some *triggers* that stay with you long after training, even long after retirement for many/most. There's a reason many vets don't like fireworks. Some can't stand the sound of helicopters.
I can tell the freakin' difference between firecrackers/fireworks and a firearm being fired. I would ASSUME the SS folks can as well. I would friggin' hope so, anyway. And even if they can't, the IMMEDIATE reaction to hearing that *pop pop pop* should have been to tackle the person they are protecting. Period.
I also didn't really get a sense of urgency and/or organized urgency from the Secret Service at the initial moment. (That's how a military friend described being in a sudden and unexpected firefight. I like that phrase: Organized Urgency. )
So, sloppiness and a hell of a lot of explaining to do.
The shirt the shooter was wearing has been identified as branded merch from Demolition Ranch.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/1e2rllx/the_trump_shooter_was_wearing_a_demolitionranch/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The same one Matt wears in the header of his shop:
https://www.bunkerbranding.com/pages/demolition-ranch
(screenshot in case it gets changed: https://i.imgur.com/LGwjzyi.png)
Matt's probably about to get a lot of unwanted attention.
One thing people tend to forget is that every action or event generates a string of reactions - and those reactions generate more reactions. The reactions to this will ripple for quite a while generating many unplanned consequences. I can only imagine what they will be. Keep your heads on swivels people and pray for this leads to a moderation of the rhetoric.
Quote from: Anianna on July 14, 2024, 12:56:43 PMThe shirt the shooter was wearing has been identified as branded merch from Demolition Ranch.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/1e2rllx/the_trump_shooter_was_wearing_a_demolitionranch/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The same one Matt wears in the header of his shop:
https://www.bunkerbranding.com/pages/demolition-ranch
(screenshot in case it gets changed: https://i.imgur.com/LGwjzyi.png)
Matt's probably about to get a lot of unwanted attention.
Too late. He's already getting attention, but so far it's mainly been people joking about lack of aim and how some comments aged poorly.
I'm betting this will go about like how it did for Black Rifle Coffee Company after it was said Kyle Rittenhouse wore one of their shirts during the Kenosha riots.
It'll be talked about for like a week and then people will forget about it.
Apparently, a photographer shot him before the Secret Service did:
(https://i.redd.it/1k7cprgj7gcd1.jpeg)
This is disappointing. I have not looked at any news since last night. In the evening I heard a news anchor talking about calming the situation down on CNN. Which gave me hope. Sounds like that is not happening. And we are right back to our scheduled blame game.
I completely agree with
@Lambykins . It appeared to me that Trump looked up to the roof top next to him. Where the SS snipers were located. Moments before the shots rang out. Like something was happening. That caught his attentiin. The shots start. He feels his ear. More shots. Then he drops to the ground. THEN the SS run to him. I to am old and have seen a few assignation attempts that were filmed. I was in the military. And paid attention to things like this. At least in a casual level. And it seemed like no one was doing anything for far to long. Far to long in terms of SS or even bodyguard time frames when shots ring out.
How is it that shots ring out. The president (isn't he supposed to always be referred to as the President? Not former or disgraced or whatever words they always use in main stream media? I remember being confused as a kid when they would refer to Jimmy Carter as the President after he left office.) turns to look at something going on, shots ring out, he grabs his ear, more shots ring out, he goes to the ground, and then SS respond? And then after some time only two guys with ARs and full kit come to the stage?
I was surprised by all of that the first time I saw the video. Then they pause in some lame body shield formation with their hands trying to cover his face. And wait for him to put his shoes on. You can hear him say "let me put my shoe or shoes on". They stay up there in the open for way to long. He raises his fist. And shouts.
In any other situation like this. No one is waiting. No one is letting him stand there. They are forcing him down into a crouch at least. And shuffling him off immediately in a low buried walk or crouch.
Saddened to here it's being politicized already.
Quote from: Anianna on July 14, 2024, 02:02:19 PMApparently, a photographer shot him before the Secret Service did:
(https://i.redd.it/1k7cprgj7gcd1.jpeg)
If you look at the overhead images that roof top is very close to the stage. And even closer to the snipers stage right on a rooftop. It would be very hard to miss someone on that roof. Very hard. Less than 200m. Maybe even 100-150m. I'm really surprised that area was not secure enough to stop someone from getting on top of that building to begin with. Even your average soldier would know that is the closest sniper position to the stage. Like so close I doubt any soldier would even attempt it. The assumption being that would be secure in the first place. And you'd be picked off as soon you got there.
Looks to me like the schmuck was using open sights and no optic. Kind of hard to tell due to the trees and the blurriness of the photo when you zoom in.
Also, I can almost say with certainty that this'll probably be the end of any open air campaign rally stops for Trump and probably Biden as well.
Any stops going forward are likely to be indoors with a extremely high level of security.
At least I'd think they ought to be.
Because you just know there's already another whacko out there that'll try this again just to get their name in the papers and their 15 minutes of fame.
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 02:03:00 PMI completely agree with @Lambykins . It appeared to me that Trump looked up to the roof top next to him. Where the SS snipers were located. Moments before the shots rang out. Like something was happening. That caught his attentiin. The shots start. He feels his ear. More shots. Then he drops to the ground. THEN the SS run to him. I to am old and have seen a few assignation attempts that were filmed. I was in the military. And paid attention to things like this. At least in a casual level. And it seemed like no one was doing anything for far to long. Far to long in terms of SS or even bodyguard time frames when shots ring out.
How is it that shots ring out. The president (isn't he supposed to always be referred to as the President? Not former or disgraced or whatever words they always use in main stream media? I remember being confused as a kid when they would refer to Jimmy Carter as the President after he left office.) turns to look at something going on, shots ring out, he grabs his ear, more shots ring out, he goes to the ground, and then SS respond? And then after some time only two guys with ARs and full kit come to the stage?
I was surprised by all of that the first time I saw the video. Then they pause in some lame body shield formation with their hands trying to cover his face. And wait for him to put his shoes on. You can hear him say "let me put my shoe or shoes on". They stay up there in the open for way to long. He raises his fist. And shouts.
In any other situation like this. No one is waiting. No one is letting him stand there. They are forcing him down into a crouch at least. And shuffling him off immediately in a low buried walk or crouch.
So I wasn't the only one that noticed all that!
Been seeing opinions from former/retired SS agents and LEOs.... some of their opinions are brutal about the TOTAL lack of situational awareness and securing the speech site. That's before they get into the lack of urgency when the shots started.
Actually it was within 140m.
For reference the Marine Corps shooting qualification (when I was in) starts at 200m. While "standing". Standing vs prone or lying down is the hardest type of shooting stance. But you can easily hit a half man sized target (it's called a dog target) from a standing position with an AR.
Why that wouldn't be within an exceptable range to secure a presidential speech is beyond me.
At least have a LEO stationed there. That could at least observe anyone climbing onto the roof.
As a person completely ignorant to tactical security of a dignitary. That is the first position anyone would secure in that situation. This isn't a conspiracy theory either. If you asked the neighbor kid what is the one place on this map you would station a cop? He would point to that building. This is kind of amazing that no one was there. And no one saw him climbing on a roof. Although apparently several civilians did. And their warnings to LE went unanswered.
Screenshot_20240714_124418_YouTube.jpg
They're the closest buildings to the stage. Not directly beside and behind the stage. How was there not even an average local LEO not stationed at those buildings?
Just watched an interview with some kids that went to HS with the shooter. Appears he was severely bullied. These kids weren't even friends. Just kids at the same school. It was apparently common knowledge he was an outcast and bullied. Not offering that up as any kind of excuse. We just have to stop looking at these events as something the gun did. And why we need to ban firearms. And start looking at why young men are suddenly carrying out these various types of horrible shootings.
There is an obvious mental health crisis at hand. But every government official and administration refuses to even study or look at the root causes. This was not happening 20-30 years ago. In the 80s and maybe even into the 90s. You routinely saw rifles in rifle racks inside trucks parked in the school parking lot. And no one was shooting each other. Or going in shooting rampages. What has happened?
Yet it has become routine to blame the firearms. And turn a blind eye to the people in these events that are creating these disastrous killings.
Like a complete lack of even questioning why these people are doing this. Let alone into any solution related answers as to how we might curb or understand this. Hours of coverage on the news into any one of these. And a complete ignoring of the simple question - "why is this happening?".
The rule of the day seems to be a "gun epidemic". When in reality it's so obviously a mental health epidemic. I just don't know how long we can keep ignoring this in favor of the political hot topic of banning guns?
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on July 14, 2024, 03:02:24 PMLooks to me like the schmuck was using open sights and no optic. Kind of hard to tell due to the trees and the blurriness of the photo when you zoom in.
Yea, TMZ watermarked their logo onto it, which distorts the image in key locations.
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 03:50:34 PMActually it was within 140m.
Screenshot_20240714_124418_YouTube.jpg
They're the closest buildings to the stage. Not directly beside and behind the stage. How was there not even an average local LEO not stationed at those buildings?
I believe there were LEO at those buildings. Attendees pointed the guy out to somebody they believed were security or law enforcement, so somebody was there.
The zoomed out view of the agents on the roof showed several more standing and looking in various directions, one of which absolutely should have been watching that rooftop. I don't see how they could have confused him for one of their own or not seen him.
I'm interested to know how tall each of those rooftops are.
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 02:03:00 PMThe president (isn't he supposed to always be referred to as the President? Not former or disgraced or whatever words they always use in main stream media? I remember being confused as a kid when they would refer to Jimmy Carter as the President after he left office.)
My understanding is that any person who has held the office can be addressed as "Mr. President" (or as the case will be eventually, "Madam President"). But only the current office holder is referred to in the third person as "
the President".
There is more nuance than that in the present case, but I can't go there.
Quote from: Anianna on July 14, 2024, 03:51:28 PMQuote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on July 14, 2024, 03:02:24 PMLooks to me like the schmuck was using open sights and no optic. Kind of hard to tell due to the trees and the blurriness of the photo when you zoom in.
Yea, TMZ watermarked their logo onto it, which distorts the image in key locations.
I hate when they do that.
If I could find a clearer photo, I could better tell whether or not the gun had an optic on it or not.
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 03:50:34 PMActually it was within 140m.
For reference the Marine Corps shooting qualification (when I was in) starts at 200m. While "standing". Standing vs prone or lying down is the hardest type of shooting stance. But you can easily hit a half man sized target (it's called a dog target) from a standing position with an AR.
Why that wouldn't be within an exceptable range to secure a presidential speech is beyond me.
At least have a LEO stationed there. That could at least observe anyone climbing onto the roof.
As a person completely ignorant to tactical security of a dignitary. That is the first position anyone would secure in that situation. This isn't a conspiracy theory either. If you asked the neighbor kid what is the one place on this map you would station a cop? He would point to that building. This is kind of amazing that no one was there. And no one saw him climbing on a roof. Although apparently several civilians did. And their warnings to LE went unanswered.
Screenshot_20240714_124418_YouTube.jpg
They're the closest buildings to the stage. Not directly beside and behind the stage. How was there not even an average local LEO not stationed at those buildings?
Just watched an interview with some kids that went to HS with the shooter. Appears he was severely bullied. These kids weren't even friends. Just kids at the same school. It was apparently common knowledge he was an outcast and bullied. Not offering that up as any kind of excuse. We just have to stop looking at these events as something the gun did. And why we need to ban firearms. And start looking at why young men are suddenly carrying out these various types of horrible shootings.
There is an obvious mental health crisis at hand. But every government official and administration refuses to even study or look at the root causes. This was not happening 20-30 years ago. In the 80s and maybe even into the 90s. You routinely saw rifles in rifle racks inside trucks parked in the school parking lot. And no one was shooting each other. Or going in shooting rampages. What has happened?
Yet it has become routine to blame the firearms. And turn a blind eye to the people in these events that are creating these disastrous killings.
Like a complete lack of even questioning why these people are doing this. Let alone into any solution related answers as to how we might curb or understand this. Hours of coverage on the news into any one of these. And a complete ignoring of the simple question - "why is this happening?".
The rule of the day seems to be a "gun epidemic". When in reality it's so obviously a mental health epidemic. I just don't know how long we can keep ignoring this in favor of the political hot topic of banning guns?
I edited and added comments to this post. You might want to read it again.
A local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
Quote from: Raptor on July 14, 2024, 05:00:43 PMA local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
I wondered where some of the fired Uvalde PD guys ended up. Looks like one of them made it to PA. :rolleyes1:
Quote from: Raptor on July 14, 2024, 05:00:43 PMA local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
The photo in that article appears to show a very clear line of site between the roof the Secret Service was on and the one the shooter was on. This is nuts.
NBC Nightly News is reporting that those building were just outside of the secured perimeter. Who made that ridiculous call??
Kind of sounds like a too many cooks sort of deal with Secret Service focused inside the perimeter and expecting local LEO to handle people outside of it.
Quote from: Raptor on July 14, 2024, 05:00:43 PMA local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
Wow. Worse than I thought.
This brings up an issue I've thought of for a long time. The number of counties in a state.
It sounds like county sheriff's were the back up force to the Secret Service. But this issue does not end there.
I don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.
County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_(United_States)
Assuming each county has its own sheriff's department. How much resources does each of these tiny counties have for equipment, training and personnel?
In a state like Washington, a county in Georgia would be more like the size of a city. Texas has 254 counties.
I've always wondered, for better or worse depending on how you looked at it, what difference this made in the quality of law enforcement in a given county. Especially training, education concerning the law, equipment and how many personnel they could afford to hire.
Law enforcement training is already at a severe low nationwide. I think the average training just shooting a firearm is something obysmal.
ChatGPT says it's 16-36 hours per year. I have read statistics much lower than that. And that would just be range days qualifying with your side arm or rifle. Not actual tactical training.
So just because someone is a "county" law enforcement officer or sheriff. Does not necessarily mean he or she is well trained or well equipped for higher level situations like a Presidential event.
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 06:01:33 PMQuote from: Raptor on July 14, 2024, 05:00:43 PMA local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
Wow. Worse than I thought.
This brings up an issue I've thought of for a long time. The number of counties in a state.
It sounds like county sheriff's were the back up force to the Secret Service. But this issue does not end there.
I don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.
County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_(United_States)
Assuming each county has its own sheriff's department. How much resources does each of these tiny counties have for equipment, training and personnel?
In a state like Washington, a county in Georgia would be more like the size of a city. Texas has 254 counties.
I've always wondered, for better or worse depending on how you looked at it, what difference this made in the quality of law enforcement in a given county. Especially training, education concerning the law, equipment and how many personnel they could afford to hire.
Law enforcement training is already at a severe low nationwide. I think the average training just shooting a firearm is something obysmal.
ChatGPT says it's 16-36 hours per year. I have read statistics much lower than that. And that would just be range days qualifying with your side arm or rifle. Not actual tactical training.
So just because someone is a "county" law enforcement officer or sheriff. Does not necessarily mean he or she is well trained or well equipped for higher level situations like a Presidential event.
Was that the number of annual hours for firearms training, or for all training? If I had to guess, it's probably the latter. Specialty police roles (K-9, SWAT, riot control, mounted, SAR, etc.) frequently require much more ongoing training than "regular" police officers. So the 'average' might be higher than the 'median' when looking at the statistics.
I'm not sure what the training requirements are for our local PD as to firearms. I do know that they do live, scenario training at least once a year (wax bullet training with volunteers who act out roles and force the officers to make shoot / don't shoot decisions and go hands-on with the actors). That might count as "firearm" training, although it's really much broader than that. They do have their own range in the basement. No idea how much use it gets. Recently there has been quite a bit of focus on mental health and they've gotten some grant money for a full-time mental health professional to assist with calls and also for some specialized training materials for mental health scenarios.
As is almost always the case in every line of work, there's never enough training you can have, and never enough time / budget to take it all.
Quote from: EBuff75 on July 14, 2024, 07:28:58 PMQuote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 06:01:33 PMQuote from: Raptor on July 14, 2024, 05:00:43 PMA local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
Wow. Worse than I thought.
This brings up an issue I've thought of for a long time. The number of counties in a state.
It sounds like county sheriff's were the back up force to the Secret Service. But this issue does not end there.
I don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.
County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_(United_States)
Assuming each county has its own sheriff's department. How much resources does each of these tiny counties have for equipment, training and personnel?
In a state like Washington, a county in Georgia would be more like the size of a city. Texas has 254 counties.
I've always wondered, for better or worse depending on how you looked at it, what difference this made in the quality of law enforcement in a given county. Especially training, education concerning the law, equipment and how many personnel they could afford to hire.
Law enforcement training is already at a severe low nationwide. I think the average training just shooting a firearm is something obysmal.
ChatGPT says it's 16-36 hours per year. I have read statistics much lower than that. And that would just be range days qualifying with your side arm or rifle. Not actual tactical training.
So just because someone is a "county" law enforcement officer or sheriff. Does not necessarily mean he or she is well trained or well equipped for higher level situations like a Presidential event.
Was that the number of annual hours for firearms training, or for all training? If I had to guess, it's probably the latter. Specialty police roles (K-9, SWAT, riot control, mounted, SAR, etc.) frequently require much more ongoing training than "regular" police officers. So the 'average' might be higher than the 'median' when looking at the statistics.
I'm not sure what the training requirements are for our local PD as to firearms. I do know that they do live, scenario training at least once a year (wax bullet training with volunteers who act out roles and force the officers to make shoot / don't shoot decisions and go hands-on with the actors). That might count as "firearm" training, although it's really much broader than that. They do have their own range in the basement. No idea how much use it gets. Recently there has been quite a bit of focus on mental health and they've gotten some grant money for a full-time mental health professional to assist with calls and also for some specialized training materials for mental health scenarios.
As is almost always the case in every line of work, there's never enough training you can have, and never enough time / budget to take it all.
Generally speaking, all reports I have read from trainers and law enforcement personnel as well. It is woefully inadequate over all. It came up a lot during and after the riots. When everyone was discussing the police, shootings etc. (Number of police shootings is widely inaccurate in the media too. There's an excellent class by a well known professor on YT. And a study done by a black professor at Harvard iirc. That did not turn out like they thought it would. About how many actual people get shot by police who were not actually holding a weapon and threatening police officers or citizens lives. It's like less than 30 nationwide. Maybe even lower than that. I want to say 15.) But the amount of training we spend on officers is terrible. We need to support them alot more.
The numbers I quote are for firearm training. No distinction between just qualifying and tactical training. But I think the real number is closer to 8 nationwide. Many departments require a qualification once a year. And that's it. But it varies widely. And is generally agreed by law enforcement that it is not enough. Liberal sources do that cite this. And way over report number of police shootings per year.
The first video breaks down number and types of police shootings per year. You'll be surprised how few it actually is. As the media has over blown this massively.
EDITED REMOVED-
The third video is a black Harvard professor who did a study on police violence. Watch that one. The study did not support the official narrative of an out of control law enforcement community. And he received a major about if backlash for it. It's a short video.https://youtu.be/FBpPSVQHSmk?si=8NV6L_cEeR7P2OiW
https://youtu.be/nSfVcGI6T4A?si=ryGXBSPBZTYHTsSo
******************************
EDITED REMOVED:
******************************
Additional reading on police training. Seems fairly balanced. There are many biased sources trying to support high rates of police shootings because of lack of training. Then other sources that are probably police. Simply trying to get more support for more and better police training. Google was no help due its inherent bias. But the Brave browser did uncover some better sources.
https://www.police1.com/police-training/articles/a-letter-to-the-american-public-we-need-to-increase-the-quantity-and-quality-of-police-training-PEIoRJqWTIG55dqy/
This video does not have a watermark blocking anything.
Trump rally shooting photo: Image shows gunman on roof (wtae.com) (https://www.wtae.com/article/gunman-photo-trump-rally/61591977)
This ad came up on Aljezeera while I was browsing around various news sites.
(https://i.imgur.com/FzhtwtS.jpg)
Yikes. I assume they use a third party ad generator, but, wow.
Quote from: Anianna on July 14, 2024, 09:37:17 PMThis ad came up on Aljezeera while I was browsing around various news sites.
(https://i.imgur.com/FzhtwtS.jpg)
Yikes. I assume they use a third party ad generator, but, wow.
Kind of reminds me of when Dimebag Darrell Abbott got killed in 2004 and some dude on Ebay was selling Pantera shirts with actual bullet holes in them and making fun of Dime getting killed.
Ebay nuked his account really quick after severe backlash.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13634219/Veteran-longest-confirmed-sniper-kill-Trump-assassination-attempt.html
(I was on the old forum years ago, and decided to check out here to see what people were talking about). The dailymail article above shows different counter snipers on a rooftop- some wear different uniforms, have hats with brims, and bipods on their rifles (on top of the fixed tripods on the roof). Makes me wonder if this is a second team? Or earlier in the day on the same building as the guys with caps who took the shot (or the one guy with cap who did whilst the other fell over). Did the rally go on long enough to need two teams?
I like the bellingcat website where they look at stuff like this. After the shooting I was looking at google streetview myself as I've read enough bellingcat to know how to do some stuff.
It's surprising after the Las Vegas shooting (that was at 450m- though downwards) that there's not a dot on the google maps with a radius traced around it.
Listening to the shots it's hard to figure out which are the shooters and which the counter sniper. Did the shooter need to have auto or a bump stock? Or semi auto enough? What are the gun laws in the state?
On another issue- when the local cops got the info there was a potential shooter on the roof, before going up a ladder to look, did they communicate with the counter snipers? One would think it was a good idea, otherwise the aforementioned cop could have got a bullet in the head from the counter sniper.
Or was it like Grenada- where everyone is on a different radio channel? (I think that's correct. The UK had the same problem in the Falklands from memory- but this was the 80's- 40 years ago- was meant to be fixed).
All fire was semi auto. Including LE. Shots that far with a crowd would not be accurate enough with full auto. And not necessary in that situation. Bump stocks are a joke. Not accurate and you can be just as fast if not faster with your finger. But none of those are accurate at except very close distances. They have just been over publicized by the left leaning media who support a gun ban. And over publicized by anti gun entities across the US. They are a joke in the gun community. They do not make an accurate full auto rifle out of a simple semi auto AR15.
Full auto is not legal in the US for citizens. Except for full auto arms that were grandfathered before the law banning sales of full auto decades ago. And those arms are prohibitively expensive. Like $20,000 to $100,000+.
We will most likely not find much out about the operation itself. Until an investigation has been concluded. Which could be months. The first few shots heard in camera. Can be assumed to be the shooter. But the rapid response volley is most likely LE. SS to be specific.
Comms is likely. But not much official info has come out about the local LE confronting the shooter on the roof. It could have been a situation where local LE climbed up only to find a man pointing a rifle at them. Or maybe the shooter did not see them at all. But LE decided to let the SS snipers deal with it. Or the SS snipers called them off the roof. As they were blocking their shot. But who knows? We won't know until some official investigation comes out .
Get ready for the theatrics in congress. But what we do know is a shooter was allowed to get way to close to a former president. And shoot him, others in the crowd, and kill another person. That alone is well worth a very serious investigation. To get within 140m of Trump with a rifle is not meant to happen ever. 140m is well within the accurate distance of any common hunting rifle or AR.
Quote from: Red Tamarillo on July 15, 2024, 04:27:08 AMhttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13634219/Veteran-longest-confirmed-sniper-kill-Trump-assassination-attempt.html
(I was on the old forum years ago, and decided to check out here to see what people were talking about). The dailymail article above shows different counter snipers on a rooftop- some wear different uniforms, have hats with brims, and bipods on their rifles (on top of the fixed tripods on the roof). Makes me wonder if this is a second team? Or earlier in the day on the same building as the guys with caps who took the shot (or the one guy with cap who did whilst the other fell over). Did the rally go on long enough to need two teams?
I like the bellingcat website where they look at stuff like this. After the shooting I was looking at google streetview myself as I've read enough bellingcat to know how to do some stuff.
It's surprising after the Las Vegas shooting (that was at 450m- though downwards) that there's not a dot on the google maps with a radius traced around it.
Listening to the shots it's hard to figure out which are the shooters and which the counter sniper. Did the shooter need to have auto or a bump stock? Or semi auto enough? What are the gun laws in the state?
On another issue- when the local cops got the info there was a potential shooter on the roof, before going up a ladder to look, did they communicate with the counter snipers? One would think it was a good idea, otherwise the aforementioned cop could have got a bullet in the head from the counter sniper.
Or was it like Grenada- where everyone is on a different radio channel? (I think that's correct. The UK had the same problem in the Falklands from memory- but this was the 80's- 40 years ago- was meant to be fixed).
Welcome back to the family, so to speak. Our rules are pretty much the same but a little relaxed in some areas, like politics. We recognize that there's no way to discuss something as political as this without brushing against political things. Fortunately, we have friendly staff members standing by with garment brushes and wet wipes to help clean you up again should that happen. Our overarching rule is to be respectful and not to fight over stupid shit. I think you'll fit right in. :smiley_knipoog:
To address your questions, there were at least two counter-sniper teams used at this event and they'll usually be set up and working 30 minutes to an hour prior to any of the public getting into the venue. There will usually be a supervisor who will spell team members for breaks so they can cool down when in excessive heat such as we've had. My best friend is such a supervisor.
As for comms. Yeah, even after the interoperability push of the past 20 years they're still a mess. I've worked comms at events like this and it really is a nightmare of messages getting garbled, repeated incorrectly, or misrouted as they get shifted between incompatible systems (different frequencies that agencies might not have access to, different encryption, etc.) and getting a message from that officer to the sniper teams might have taken 15 minutes or more, and they didn't
have 15 minutes.
The problem is simply lack of resources for the Secret Service. As with
any Federal agency, next year's budget is going to depend on what gets done with this year's budget, and where the bean counters think stuff could be cut back, especially as Congress Critters face reelection. "Well, no one
really tried to kill the protectees last year so do we really need all those agents and resources there?" SOP where Federal budgets are concerned. Cut shit back until something breaks, the Congress Critters say, "Ooopsie! Us bad!" and make a big show of wanting to give the agency more "next budget".
(do you get the feeling that my wife and I can't wait to get out of this area?)
So I managed to find a semi-clear pic of the would-be assassin and it appears the AR he was armed with had an optic of some sort on it.
It's hard to make out what type it was exactly due to blur and the trees behind him blending in with the possible optic, but to me it looks like a reflex style sight similar to a HoloSun or a Weaver Microdot.
Those are typically non-magnified, which could explain why the shots weren't as accurate as they could've been.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on July 15, 2024, 10:51:51 AMSo I managed to find a semi-clear pic of the would-be assassin and it appears the AR he was armed with had an optic of some sort on it.
It's hard to make out what type it was exactly due to blur and the trees behind him blending in with the possible optic, but to me it looks like a reflex style sight similar to a HoloSun or a Weaver Microdot.
Those are typically non-magnified, which could explain why the shots weren't as accurate as they could've been.
The shots were rush after that cop found him, that's why they were inaccurate. Any competent shooter should have no issue hitting a grapefruit at that range with open sights. With a red dot, I'll hit it out to 200-300
Quote from: NT2C on July 15, 2024, 10:54:51 AMQuote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on July 15, 2024, 10:51:51 AMSo I managed to find a semi-clear pic of the would-be assassin and it appears the AR he was armed with had an optic of some sort on it.
It's hard to make out what type it was exactly due to blur and the trees behind him blending in with the possible optic, but to me it looks like a reflex style sight similar to a HoloSun or a Weaver Microdot.
Those are typically non-magnified, which could explain why the shots weren't as accurate as they could've been.
The shots were rush after that cop found him, that's why they were inaccurate. Any competent shooter should have no issue hitting a grapefruit at that range with open sights. With a red dot, I'll hit it out to 200-300
Good point.
I retract my previous statement on that.
Quote from: Crimson_Phoenix on July 14, 2024, 12:01:42 AMQuote from: Moab on July 13, 2024, 07:34:28 PMOne thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.
I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.
My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.
I work in a big government building sharing a campus with a municipal and county courthouse to the NE and a local university immediately across the pavilion to the south. The area polling station is directly downstairs in the council overflow chambers. I DO NOT FEEL SAFE. Dad keeps talking me down saying Police/SWAT is literally up the street and I'm literally in the safest place I could be outside of NORAD. I've had a bleeder kit packed in my work bag for over two years now.
Quote from: RapterA local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
When seconds count, I never count on the police being any more than 4-15 minutes away. I work 7 miles from Parkland, and saw how the responders ... waited for backup while kids were dying. Yeah, depend on yourself and be ready with a plan for you're work. This is a prepper site. Don't be scared, be ready.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on July 14, 2024, 03:02:24 PMLooks to me like the schmuck was using open sights and no optic. Kind of hard to tell due to the trees and the blurriness of the photo when you zoom in.
Also, I can almost say with certainty that this'll probably be the end of any open air campaign rally stops for Trump and probably Biden as well.
Any stops going forward are likely to be indoors with a extremely high level of security.
At least I'd think they ought to be.
Because you just know there's already another whacko out there that'll try this again just to get their name in the papers and their 15 minutes of fame.
I paused that image on my 65" and got right up to to screen to see if I could see an optic. I thought I saw a holographic. But that's a 1x. Still should be an easy 130m shot. I also thought at first that it was a 300BO suppressed subsonic because the sound of the bullet [not the report of the gun] was 'sic', 'sic', not a supersonic crack, crack. Or possibly a subsonic 22LR, but I've changed my mind. We'll get the details eventually.
Regarding the shooter missing at that close range. It was reported he failed to make the rifle team in 'his freshman year' IDK if that is HS or College. But this was really bad marksmanship. So then I was thinking that he only practiced at an indoor 25yd range if ever. Was the rifle even zero'd? Or, since it was his dad's rifle, that is dad has a 'yip' in his shooting and adjusted his zero to compensate for the yip. Which that wouldn't show up on a 25yd range but at 100yds it could.
The other thing I noticed were the counter sniper teams optics. Those were high magnification, in a short distance scenario, and I think zoomable. IMO the farthest buildings across the main audience field were about 300yds. The ones across the street not the AGR. Those CS optics were 20x or 40x max, I don't know what the min is on those but hopefully 10-12x. You can't use those to provide overwatch in less than 300 yds as their field of view is to narrow. ~5ft at 100yds :smiley_shrug: ? If it were me I'd have had LPVO 1-6x, or a fixed 4x or at most a 10x with a wide field of view on a SASR or DMR, not bolt guns. With a 20xz, you have to basically hit your target with a 'point of the rifle' then look thru the optic and hopefully your 'point' was within that 5ft field of view so you can lay your crosshairs on the target. These guys didn't rig their tools for the mission.
The other thing I'm thinking is the rules of engagement were: Don't fire until VIP is fired upon. But I've also heard that they weren't sure that person wasn't authorized to be there. :eek1: AND, that those roofs across the street, and in the AGR complex, were outside of the 'perimeter' that SS was supposed to protect. So were they not looking at them. Why would they be looking at the crowd with those optics, the ONLY thing they needed to look at were the AGR roofs, the 2 buildings roofs across the street, the building to the 11 o'clock of the stage and the water tower. Which BTW, any security strategist would have stood at the podium, scanned all the high ground and said, 'OK, we need a guy, there, there there and there. 4 fricken guys on those roofs.
That shot should have never gotten off.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fresize.indiatvnews.com%2Fen%2Fresize%2Fnewbucket%2F1200_-%2F2024%2F07%2FAP07_14_2024_000023B.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=3b3911b123391a8566da339583b48d121859644813aff368e57261058be86f3b&ipo=images)
I think they'll use those bullet proof plexi setups more for outdoor events now. But in this scenario there was a water tower behind the podium, and they only plexi the fonts and sides mostly.
When those SS guys were holding their arms up to provide 'CONCEALMENT' for the president. I was saying to my wife, 'how come they don't have Captain America shields. Or a cloth concealment sail they can deploy to get the VIP out of line of sight?
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pmmilestone3.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F07%2FSecret-Service-Under-Intense-Scrutiny-After-Shooting-at-Trump-Rally-850x425.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fbe607799e1f6cf6e3d20e4eded8263152571630083867205f503ea3e2853940&ipo=images)
Finally: I don't know if any of you noticed that there were 4 female SS agents on body detail. All under 5'5". The current director of SS is a proponent of DEI. And the VIP is 6'3"+, so as a human shield they are only protecting the bottom half. Melania thanks you.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIF.WcITLzYFlrsEdzaxxt703Q%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=6b915108688da30aadd177990440818b9ace0941f837901ebd73876228e690a3&ipo=images)(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnybreaking.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F07%2F1720916383_920_Barack-Obama-leads-the-world-in-condemnation-of-Donald-Trump.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f608592d62e04f4c969fdc6b9ef09fc82a550753a6fc5222e7ecb13c487d85e0&ipo=images)
No offense, but munchkins should body protect munchkins, giants should protect giants.
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 06:01:33 PMI don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.
County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.
Less rivers.
Quote from: Red Tamarillo on July 15, 2024, 04:27:08 AMListening to the shots it's hard to figure out which are the shooters and which the counter sniper. Did the shooter need to have auto or a bump stock? Or semi auto enough? What are the gun laws in the state?
That was slow semi auto fire. First three shots. Reported that the AR style rifle was legally purchased by shooters father. Whether the shooter could legally possess is still TBD. My bet, he was on anti-psychotics, just came off anti-psychotics, and/or was self medicating.
I can't figure out that last shot though. It was a good 10 seconds after the everything subsided.
As an example of fast semi auto, unassisted [trigger finger only]
I've seen much faster. Indistinguishable from FA.
Remember, the counter snipers had suppressors.
Quote from: NT2C on July 15, 2024, 12:07:36 PMRemember, the counter snipers had suppressors.
Yep, accounted for that. And that's why I changed my mind pretty quick.
Suppressors quiet the report, not the sonic boom of the round traveling at super sonic speeds. That's why you need subsonic suppressed for really quiet actions. The suppressor quiets the report, and the subsonic doesn't crack a sonic boom as it travels thru the air. If you use a suppressor with supersonic ammo you still get that really loud 'crack' of the overpressure wave. Subsonic is for short range static targets. Supersonic is for every range and moving targets. But its loud. Except for the fact that the shooter missed, at first I thought it was a pro with the right gear for a 130m shot at at static target, and an escape plan.
Subsonic isn't reliable in 556/223, but is very reliable in 300BO. I went there only for a few minutes.
All the 'sic' 'sic' 'sic' bullet overpressure waves sounded the same. Some with report, some without. The first shot its really noticeable, because you can hear the 'sic' and then the bang of the report. As would be expected. That's why I came to the conclusion shooter used standard supersonic ammo. It sounded the same as the snipers when it came to the sonic boom. I had just never heard it thru a mic at that angle before. IRL yes. Sounded different to me at first. :smiley_shrug:
It was brought to my attention that my post above concerning the general impression that police are involved in a high number of bad shootings. Because of a lack of training. May have come across as racial and skirted our common rules of no politics.
I have edited out those comments referring to a video about a Harvard study. That concluded that the police are not actually involved in a number of bad shootings of minorities. And I have removed that video.
My sincere apologies.
But I would like to explain my intentions behind the video and my comments:
Police training seeming to be germaine to the subject of police failures during the Trump assassination attempt. I didn't want anyone to think I was being anti police in regards to their lack of training.
I was trying to be clear that lack of training "may" have caused the failures during the Trump assignation attempt. But that police shootings of minorities had nothing to do with that ascertain. As the data or media that tries to uphold that overwheling, very public view - is incorrect.
I felt that if I didn't include those lectures and study information. People would assume I was also referring to a lack of training being the cause of those perceived, rampant police failures.
The video I chose concerning the Harvard study was not my best choice either. The ones that detail his findings are quite lengthy. I posted the short one just to cite as the source of my comments. And to make it easy to watch. And it did appear to be mainly about the backlash he received. Rather than the studies outcome. Which was basically that police shooting of minorities are not rampantly biased or prejudiced. Which the media would lead you to believe.
Some one else had already countered that police training was better from their anecdotal evidence. Than I had posted.
And it appeared as if my comments might be taken as an indictment of the police. Which they were not meant to be. I just didn't want anyone thinking I was conflating the lack of training for police officers in the failures during the Trump assassination attempt with the overwhelming public perception that police are involved in bad shootings daily - because of that same lack of training.
I understand this falls within a no politics policy. Which is why I strayed away from any opinion. And tried to only post factual videos that cited government and/or academic studies.
My apologies. I have edited the post. And removed the video. Please let me know if there is anything else skirting the line that may need to be taken down as well.
I support law enforcement. I think they need much more support than they get. Including better training. There is no evidence that lack of training was the cause of the failures during the assignation attempt. Just speculation.
But I do think it's unfair that we expect LEOs from a small local county to jump into SS roles. Which they are obviously not trained for. Who knows what happened on that rooftop. And I do not know what the solution is. Maybe a state level unit that already exists? That receives additional training specific to helping out SS whenever they arrive in their state? I don't know.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on July 15, 2024, 11:17:25 AMQuote from: Crimson_Phoenix on July 14, 2024, 12:01:42 AMQuote from: Moab on July 13, 2024, 07:34:28 PMOne thing is almost certain. No matter who wins in November. There is going to be chaos.
I am either going to be out of the city. Or ready to go at a moments notice on election day. Which may even be to late considering my poor location.
My opinion is be prepared. Nothing good is going to happen on election day.
I work in a big government building sharing a campus with a municipal and county courthouse to the NE and a local university immediately across the pavilion to the south. The area polling station is directly downstairs in the council overflow chambers. I DO NOT FEEL SAFE. Dad keeps talking me down saying Police/SWAT is literally up the street and I'm literally in the safest place I could be outside of NORAD. I've had a bleeder kit packed in my work bag for over two years now.
Quote from: RapterA local LEO confronted the scum and did not act.
https://nypost.com/2024/07/14/us-news/local-cop-confronted-sniper-thomas-matthew-crooks-before-he-shot-former-president-trump-report/
Pretty pathetic reaction.
A bunch of people need walking papers.
When seconds count, I never count on the police being any more than 4-15 minutes away. I work 7 miles from Parkland, and saw how the responders ... waited for backup while kids were dying. Yeah, depend on yourself and be ready with a plan for you're work. This is a prepper site. Don't be scared, be ready.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on July 14, 2024, 03:02:24 PMLooks to me like the schmuck was using open sights and no optic. Kind of hard to tell due to the trees and the blurriness of the photo when you zoom in.
Also, I can almost say with certainty that this'll probably be the end of any open air campaign rally stops for Trump and probably Biden as well.
Any stops going forward are likely to be indoors with a extremely high level of security.
At least I'd think they ought to be.
Because you just know there's already another whacko out there that'll try this again just to get their name in the papers and their 15 minutes of fame.
I paused that image on my 65" and got right up to to screen to see if I could see an optic. I thought I saw a holographic. But that's a 1x. Still should be an easy 130m shot. I also thought at first that it was a 300BO suppressed subsonic because the sound of the bullet [not the report of the gun] was 'sic', 'sic', not a supersonic crack, crack. Or possibly a subsonic 22LR, but I've changed my mind. We'll get the details eventually.
Regarding the shooter missing at that close range. It was reported he failed to make the rifle team in 'his freshman year' IDK if that is HS or College. But this was really bad marksmanship. So then I was thinking that he only practiced at an indoor 25yd range if ever. Was the rifle even zero'd? Or, since it was his dad's rifle, that is dad has a 'yip' in his shooting and adjusted his zero to compensate for the yip. Which that wouldn't show up on a 25yd range but at 100yds it could.
The other thing I noticed were the counter sniper teams optics. Those were high magnification, in a short distance scenario, and I think zoomable. IMO the farthest buildings across the main audience field were about 300yds. The ones across the street not the AGR. Those CS optics were 20x or 40x max, I don't know what the min is on those but hopefully 10-12x. You can't use those to provide overwatch in less than 300 yds as their field of view is to narrow. ~5ft at 100yds :smiley_shrug: ? If it were me I'd have had LPVO 1-6x, or a fixed 4x or at most a 10x with a wide field of view on a SASR or DMR, not bolt guns. With a 20xz, you have to basically hit your target with a 'point of the rifle' then look thru the optic and hopefully your 'point' was within that 5ft field of view so you can lay your crosshairs on the target. These guys didn't rig their tools for the mission.
The other thing I'm thinking is the rules of engagement were: Don't fire until VIP is fired upon. But I've also heard that they weren't sure that person wasn't authorized to be there. :eek1: AND, that those roofs across the street, and in the AGR complex, were outside of the 'perimeter' that SS was supposed to protect. So were they not looking at them. Why would they be looking at the crowd with those optics, the ONLY thing they needed to look at were the AGR roofs, the 2 buildings roofs across the street, the building to the 11 o'clock of the stage and the water tower. Which BTW, any security strategist would have stood at the podium, scanned all the high ground and said, 'OK, we need a guy, there, there there and there. 4 fricken guys on those roofs.
That shot should have never gotten off.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fresize.indiatvnews.com%2Fen%2Fresize%2Fnewbucket%2F1200_-%2F2024%2F07%2FAP07_14_2024_000023B.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=3b3911b123391a8566da339583b48d121859644813aff368e57261058be86f3b&ipo=images)
I think they'll use those bullet proof plexi setups more for outdoor events now. But in this scenario there was a water tower behind the podium, and they only plexi the fonts and sides mostly.
When those SS guys were holding their arms up to provide 'CONCEALMENT' for the president. I was saying to my wife, 'how come they don't have Captain America shields. Or a cloth concealment sail they can deploy to get the VIP out of line of sight?
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pmmilestone3.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F07%2FSecret-Service-Under-Intense-Scrutiny-After-Shooting-at-Trump-Rally-850x425.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fbe607799e1f6cf6e3d20e4eded8263152571630083867205f503ea3e2853940&ipo=images)
Finally: I don't know if any of you noticed that there were 4 female SS agents on body detail. All under 5'5". The current director of SS is a proponent of DEI. And the VIP is 6'3"+, so as a human shield they are only protecting the bottom half. Melania thanks you.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIF.WcITLzYFlrsEdzaxxt703Q%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=6b915108688da30aadd177990440818b9ace0941f837901ebd73876228e690a3&ipo=images)(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnybreaking.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F07%2F1720916383_920_Barack-Obama-leads-the-world-in-condemnation-of-Donald-Trump.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f608592d62e04f4c969fdc6b9ef09fc82a550753a6fc5222e7ecb13c487d85e0&ipo=images)
No offense, but munchkins should body protect munchkins, giants should protect giants.
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 06:01:33 PMI don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.
County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.
Less rivers.
"Less rivers."
That's a really interesting idea!
I just watched a documentary about the Scots immigrating to the south. And there lack of interest in infrastructure. Specifically building bridges. Long past the time other areas of the nation had built bridges across most of their waterways. The south had not. Leaving only seasonal ferry crossings or more than likely fording waterways on foot or horseback. When water levels allowed.
Which may have been the cause of so many small counties. Like you say. The many "rivers".
I still find it odd that we have held onto that system of such small counties. They can't possibly have the same resources as the rest of the larger counties in the country. But I guess one could make the ascertain that many of those larger counties also include large swath's of vacant or low population lands. So maybe the resources are the same? Idk.
I only have experience in larger western counties. Where the county sheriff is a rather large, well equipped, well trained entity. Smaller cities within those counties - more the size of a southern county - are much smaller LE agencies, less equipped, and less trained.
In my hometown LE was volunteer only. With maybe one officer paid from time to time. I think now there is no local LE. And they've contracted with the county sherrif. Who is 45 minutes to an hour away.
But literally just about anyone could be appointed as a policeman. My grandfather was one in his latter 60s. When I was just a kid. Beyond his combat experience in WWII. He had little to no training in LE. I remember thinking "who the hell thought this was a good idea?!". Lol!
Quote from: MacWa77ace on July 15, 2024, 12:03:47 PMQuote from: Red Tamarillo on July 15, 2024, 04:27:08 AMListening to the shots it's hard to figure out which are the shooters and which the counter sniper. Did the shooter need to have auto or a bump stock? Or semi auto enough? What are the gun laws in the state?
That was slow semi auto fire. First three shots. Reported that the AR style rifle was legally purchased by shooters father. Whether the shooter could legally possess is still TBD. My bet, he was on anti-psychotics, just came off anti-psychotics, and/or was self medicating.
I can't figure out that last shot though. It was a good 10 seconds after the everything subsided.
As an example of fast semi auto, unassisted [trigger finger only]
I've seen much faster. Indistinguishable from FA.
Thanks for the link, That was pretty fast.
I'm wondering if the last shot was a "just to be sure the shooter is down shot". Or heat of moment shot going elsewhere.
New video of the shooter on the roof. The building was being used as local PD staging area. One officer did climb roof, shooter pointed gun at him, officer lost his grip and fell back down. Then shooting started.
https://youtu.be/6tReC8aNS0A?si=259QnPyQJC4gWpgr
https://youtu.be/uvBT8oCpWAs?si=HHWGTM4mm_DbAD0s
https://youtu.be/_ukInN0eBsU?si=7umIQ3dq6YuXe4Jw
https://youtu.be/ag17KVRIrQ4?si=5GKpuITlcIDMPhcJ
Quote from: MacWa77ace on July 15, 2024, 11:17:25 AM(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pmmilestone3.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F07%2FSecret-Service-Under-Intense-Scrutiny-After-Shooting-at-Trump-Rally-850x425.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fbe607799e1f6cf6e3d20e4eded8263152571630083867205f503ea3e2853940&ipo=images)
Finally: I don't know if any of you noticed that there were 4 female SS agents on body detail. All under 5'5". The current director of SS is a proponent of DEI. And the VIP is 6'3"+, so as a human shield they are only protecting the bottom half. Melania thanks you.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIF.WcITLzYFlrsEdzaxxt703Q%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=6b915108688da30aadd177990440818b9ace0941f837901ebd73876228e690a3&ipo=images)(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnybreaking.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F07%2F1720916383_920_Barack-Obama-leads-the-world-in-condemnation-of-Donald-Trump.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f608592d62e04f4c969fdc6b9ef09fc82a550753a6fc5222e7ecb13c487d85e0&ipo=images)
No offense, but munchkins should body protect munchkins, giants should protect giants.
When I read this I couldn't help thinking of the actor/ress who played Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones. Just a little over 6ft 3" according to wikipedia.
Well, that didn't take long...
(https://hardaddy.com/image/catalog/product/2024-07/15/0117ac3686fe94ad95adb9faf373a00d.jpg) (https://hardaddy.com/products/fight-american-hawaiian-shirt-16385445?variant=2037243)
Quote from: Red Tamarillo on July 16, 2024, 04:32:52 AMWhen I read this I couldn't help thinking of the actor/ress who played Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones. Just a little over 6ft 3" according to wikipedia.
And her character was a body guard.. :awesome: She was a Commander in the King's Guard. Great analogy. That's what I'm talking about. She killed the Hound!
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FNKytSUL3wBE%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=3168ef86614f8f925af773c90eeba00eb51a92dab18d8521a28caeb9a50eabc3&ipo=images)
Pretty good video, seems to explain a few things and adds more questions. I'll hold my comments on some
of the content, be be warned it gets a bit political:
Quick note right now, gotta read more....
Starting to look like the Secret Service is trying to shift all blame to local LEOs.
Gonna go read more...
Quote from: Moab on July 14, 2024, 06:01:33 PMI don't know why the reason is for so many counties. I assume smaller fiefdoms. But western states tend to have far fewer counties than eastern states. Georgia for example has 159 counties. The state I am originally from, Washington, has 39.
County (United States)
254– Texas.
159– Georgia.
120– Kentucky.
115– Missouri.
105– Kansas.
102– Illinois.
100– North Carolina.
99– Iowa.
Less rivers.
[/quote]
"Less rivers."
That's a really interesting idea!
I just watched a documentary about the Scots immigrating to the south. And there lack of interest in infrastructure. Specifically building bridges. Long past the time other areas of the nation had built bridges across most of their waterways. The south had not. Leaving only seasonal ferry crossings or more than likely fording waterways on foot or horseback. When water levels allowed.
Which may have been the cause of so many small counties. Like you say. The many "rivers".
I still find it odd that we have held onto that system of such small counties. They can't possibly have the same resources as the rest of the larger counties in the country. But I guess one could make the ascertain that many of those larger counties also include large swath's of vacant or low population lands. So maybe the resources are the same? Idk.
I only have experience in larger western counties. Where the county sheriff is a rather large, well equipped, well trained entity. Smaller cities within those counties - more the size of a southern county - are much smaller LE agencies, less equipped, and less trained.
In my hometown LE was volunteer only. With maybe one officer paid from time to time. I think now there is no local LE. And they've contracted with the county sherrif. Who is 45 minutes to an hour away.
But literally just about anyone could be appointed as a policeman. My grandfather was one in his latter 60s. When I was just a kid. Beyond his combat experience in WWII. He had little to no training in LE. I remember thinking "who the hell thought this was a good idea?!". Lol!
[/quote]
supposedly in the GA constitution - that all county seats had to be within a half days ride. That way you could go take care of business and be back home by sundown
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rally-local-police-gunman-113402176.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rally-local-police-gunman-113402176.html)
So...lots o' blame being slung about.
Quote from: Lambykins on July 17, 2024, 11:53:54 AMhttps://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rally-local-police-gunman-113402176.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rally-local-police-gunman-113402176.html)
So...lots o' blame being slung about.
Unbelievable.
QuoteThat this simple matter — whether law enforcement used the same building as the gunman — is still not easily resolved three days after the shooting shows that divisions are emerging among the law enforcement agencies after a would-be assassin came close to felling the Republican presidential nominee two days before the party's convention.
Quote from: Lambykins on July 17, 2024, 11:53:54 AMhttps://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rally-local-police-gunman-113402176.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rally-local-police-gunman-113402176.html)
So...lots o' blame being slung about.
The responsibility falls entirely in the hands of the SS. And what's been happening within various government security services. If you watch the videos above. Especially the one posted by
@DarkAxel above. There were many failures that day. It was worse than amateur hour.
Just about every prior special forces or government security personnel agree. A large part of the blame is on DEI and the recent hiring and promotion of personnel who really really don't have the qualifications to be doing those jobs. From the SS director on down. The director even stated in her most recent interview that the blame is with them.
Tin Kennedy a very well respected and very high level member of this community had a lot to say about this:
https://youtu.be/G9boJpqiZTQ?si=mIw6qCKkSLsIoQdp
https://youtu.be/dC5CugM53Us?si=jv6GexwxrHW56-ft
One SS member at the scene was photographed hiding behind the bleachers when the shooting started. Which is the opposite reaction for a SS agent in that moment. Who also does not meet the height and weight requirements of the SS. Which were recently waived in favor of making the SS more DEI compliant. And obviously does not have the qualifications to react in a situation like this. Another was photographed hiding behind the former President.
Leaving the rooftop of the nearest building from the bleachers unsecured and unobserved. Both from just a observational standpoint - but worse - the fact the shooter was able to travel thru a huge swath of area that should have been cordoned off. Is so bad it's almost suspect.
This was a complete failure by the SS. Local LE is not used to take over an entire area within a security zone that close. They are simply meant to be additional assistance for the SS. The SS are normally stationed and directly involved in any area that is at least within rifle distance of whomever they are protecting. The amount of prep and operational security out into every location they visit is legendary.
Especially obvious, rooftop, sniper positions within 150m of the potential target.
A Marine working in the chow hall with a GED, would have recognized that rooftop as the first place to secure in that situation. And an 8 yr old with a couple hours of practice could have made that shot. It's that close. And I am not over exaggerating. That is a very easy shot to make. Even a head shot. Sighting in a rifle commonly entails accurate shots from a close distance of 100 meters. Common accuracy at that distance is 1 or 2 MOA. Meaning a 1 or 2 inch group. Which is common with most modern rifles. Better than that even with a higher end one. The human head is roughly 8 inches.
This was a massive failure. Like I said, to the level of it being almost suspect. If it weren't for the recent changes in government security forces. That have denigrated their capabilities.
Thankfully we have veterans of these services speaking out on the real reasons. And not adding any fuel to the idea of a potentially suspect situation. Which I don't think anyone believes. But could easily be turned into fanning the flames of an already on edge population.
No matter who was directly involved, Secret Service was in charge of the operation and they will forever be at fault for selecting such a narrow perimeter to begin with.
I'm going to step in here for a moment with my admin hat on and request that we refrain from using the term "DEI" from here out in this thread/conversation. It's become too politicized a term and goes against the site's standing prohibition against politics. Yes, I realize that there's a lot of different contexts that the term can be used in and that not all of them are political in nature, but there are also quite a few that are very political and which are why I'm having to draw this line before the mods get a bunch of work handed to them trying to decipher the snarl. No, I am not saying that anyone has violated our rules. Had that been the case the thread would be locked.
It appears that state police and Secret Service may have been locked inside the fenced perimeter, reducing response time.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1e5qjzt/new_footage_shows_cops_and_secret_service/
Quote from: Anianna on July 17, 2024, 05:33:06 PMIt appears that state police and Secret Service may have been locked inside the fenced perimeter, reducing response time.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1e5qjzt/new_footage_shows_cops_and_secret_service/
This is like a Warner's Brothers cartoon!!!! WTH?! Lol!!!
(https://ufozs.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVLv7ePb.jpg&hash=4e879bf0ec7d56dfcfd15a60683d0c5543c62f1d) (https://imgur.com/VLv7ePb)
Quote from: Moab on July 17, 2024, 05:50:58 PMQuote from: Anianna on July 17, 2024, 05:33:06 PMIt appears that state police and Secret Service may have been locked inside the fenced perimeter, reducing response time.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1e5qjzt/new_footage_shows_cops_and_secret_service/
This is like a Warner's Brothers cartoon!!!! WTH?! Lol!!!
Nobody, and I mean nobody had bolt cutters and a Gerber? Holy hell.
(sorry.)
After a severe grilling by Congress, the director of the Secret Service has stepped down.
Yahoo News link (https://www.yahoo.com/news/secret-director-steps-down-assassination-143441325.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&segment_id=DY_VTO&ncid=crm_19908-1202929-20240723-0&bt_user_id=nh6uhKqoL42CcZ6u70BSLmU8z0UBWIvB9CKTNb%2FdOMV0LBSQHwoglk0ohNU3PCu7&bt_ts=1721760396358)
If you haven't seen the video clips of various members of Congress laying into her, they're pretty entertaining.
Quote from: Anianna on July 23, 2024, 05:53:38 PMAfter a severe grilling by Congress, the director of the Secret Service has stepped down.
Yahoo News link (https://www.yahoo.com/news/secret-director-steps-down-assassination-143441325.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&segment_id=DY_VTO&ncid=crm_19908-1202929-20240723-0&bt_user_id=nh6uhKqoL42CcZ6u70BSLmU8z0UBWIvB9CKTNb%2FdOMV0LBSQHwoglk0ohNU3PCu7&bt_ts=1721760396358)
If you haven't seen the video clips of various members of Congress laying into her, they're pretty entertaining.
I did and to quote Aunt Polly in Tom Sayer...weren't no lick amiss.
She deserved what she got for the very poor answers she gave as do others in that organization.