Let's hear your priorities, your gaps, or your needs.
Yes, it's actually a real question. But I also think I am sitting pretty okay. I think.
But what would you buy if you had a little extra cash to throw around?
I'm very lacking in food and medical supplies, so I'd probably use the extra funds to fix that issue.
My food preps right now consist of a plastic tote of reduced sodium MREs (which are just a crime against nature to be honest. They're not very tasty, but I guess it keeps me from snacking on them like I do with regular MREs.).
I am actually in good shape in most areas. That said if someone was in a similar position I would suggest not spending that cash and stashing it. If they had to buy something, buy some more ammo. It will retain its value.
Excellent recommendations.
I recently bought a Mountain House classic variety pack, 12 pouch bucket. I also recently purchased pistol and rifle ammo. I think I still have a good supply of medical stuff, but that will be a priority to check this weekend.
Keep 'em coming!
Is it my money or a gift/find of extra unexpected money. If I found money it'd be freeze dried meats, and fruits.
My next 100-200, 90 goes to pay a CC bill for a IWB holster I just ordered. Then to an Esstac 2+1 kiwi gap mag holder I'll probably order next month. The rest goes into my 'gun fund' which is used for all manner of preps gear.
Assuming you have a detailed list of bug in, bug out and inch plans. And a detailed list of what you need to accomplish those plans based on your AO. And a list of things you still need to buy. Or items you want to augment or improve upon.
Only you can answer that question.
Beyond that I would look at what prices are for disposable items. Like food, gas, ammo, etc. Raptors right about ammo.
Not bagging on you here. Honestly. But if you don't know what to buy. Your planning is not up to date.
You should have a running list of "what to buy". Be actively signing up for deal notifications on camelcamelcamel and the many other suppliers of what you need - and monitoring daily. And purchasing accordingly.
Without that you can't prioritize your budget for prepping supplies. Which isn't so much about pinching pennies. As it is about - "what can I save here so I can buy more or better quality there".
I'll be the first to admit its not easy. I have lists upon lists. Of plans, tactics, strategies and what I need to accomplish those. Even within plans you may have three routes for your bug out, with varying equipment needs, that also vary by season, and also vary by what disaster might pop up.
It's maddening to start trying to come up with those 3 to 7 different loadouts. Do I need a set of 9lb bolt cutters? Or rope? Am I still in my vehicle? How do I quickly separate equipment and supplies to move on foot? What pieces or modules do I dump along the way? If need be. What is my overall weight? Will it all fit in my vehicle? Can I can carry it on foot in the given terrain or suspected violence or need to move quicker or the weather?
Then you apply that to your bug in preps and it's literally maddening. Trying to come up with the best strategies for each is very time consuming. You can't plan for it all. But even the basic scenarios are lengthy and detailed. NBC in the middle of winter. Earthquake in a heatwave and your at work. Bugging out because civil unrest forced you out of your bug in location.
Then the time it takes to monitor prices on items you need. It's a daily effort. The reason I post so much stuff in the deal section. Is because I'm already monitoring the deal sites and notification emails from dozens of sources. And applying it to my list of things I need to buy.
And don't get me started on researching just one item. So you want a stove? I have to find a enough top ten lists and reviews to determine that I've done my due diligence. And what I know to be correct about which ones are offered is true. Then I have to compare specs to my given situation. Will this work for my weather, the number if people I want to cook for, what I want to cook, how much does it weigh, does that added weight bring advantages to stove x, y or z?
It's crazy making. Lmao!
But the biggest decision is prioritizing what you buy, based on what you need, that is most important. I could say ammo. But you might have 10k rounds for every firearm you have. But have no utensils for eating. Or compasses. Or what have you.
Maybe we're all just veterans and have our plans and equipment already figured out and obtained. But I rarely see any of us posting item lists anymore. With an explanation of our ao and plans. To let each other scrutinize our priorities.
I would do that first. Then have a discussion of the equipment available for each task. So you can try to figure out the best performing, lightest weigh item, that will accomplish your goals. In that one category. Which by the way is a list of items an arm long.
*Plan. Buy what you need the most. And find the best item and the best price. So you can put that savings someplace else.
A few small items that I have seen the price is low recently are small battery banks, hammocks, mylar sleepings bags (way better than a mylar emergency blanket), 1000lb 550 cord, portable power stations, generators, dried emergency food, two way radios (baofeng), knives, glock knockoffs and AR15s (PSA, Aero Precision etc.), glock trade ins. Follow our deal section and and as many others as you can find.
Aliexpress is a gold mine. Sierra Trading Post, Colemans surplus, LAPG, Sportsmans Guide ( although I hate their yearly club fee. Its bullshit. Dont get me started. Lol), GGG (Garge Gear something), the list is endless.
But also ask those of us that are actively researching gear and items daily. I or
@majorhavoc or anyone else might be researching these various sources on an hour by hour basis. What you need - we might not be looking for. But we have probably researched and seen the best price on an item recently. Just because they are listed with all the other stuff we are looking for.
Are there any areas in your preps you think you are lacking that we can help you with?
Quote from: MacWa77ace on February 22, 2024, 06:24:32 PMIs it my money or a gift/find of extra unexpected money. If I found money it'd be freeze dried meats, and fruits.
My next 100-200, 90 goes to pay a CC bill for a IWB holster I just ordered. Then to an Esstac 2+1 kiwi gap mag holder I'll probably order next month. The rest goes into my 'gun fund' which is used for all manner of preps gear.
I just looked at my need to buy list. It's like 5 or 6 pages long. And constantly evolving. Because my financial priorities change. (Bills and expenditures at home come up. And puts preps on the back burner.) Or I find a better item. Or new research comes about. Or I learn a new skill that does not require that item anymore. Or your son finds a gf and you need to build a bug out bag for her. Lol. (The second extra one I've built recently! Lol)
I really need ammo right now. For a set of back up pistols I aquired via a family death. I need a couple more headlamps for family members. Luckily I already know which ones are best for my needs. I want new micarta scales for my ESEE 5. I want to replace mylar blankets with mylar sleeping bags. I'd like to be better prepared for NBC isolation at home. I need more long guns. I need more basic chestrigs for family members.
Sometimes it's f ing nauseating. Lol.
@Moab all due respect, but my question was what would *you* buy, not what should *I* buy.
Yes, in this particular thread, there is a muddy distinction between the two, but the reality is that I have a little extra money plus--as mentioned--I have a good handle on what I have. Thus I posed the question to the community, if you were in the same situation, how would you spend $100-200?
I was trying to have a conversation that might include some different perspectives on how we--we, not I--prioritize our needs and wants.
100-200 would pay on the credit card ,or money towards a set of tires on my truck , save for moving expenses.
Hmmm... vehicles are in good shape, need to get some extra fuel for the generators but I have enough to last 72 hours, I'm tempted to say more ammo but, realistically, if it comes down to armed resistance then I'm not lasting long anyway so more ammo just rearms the bad guys. Pretty good on food but more freeze-dried would be good. I'm well-stocked for medical emergencies and my comms setups are capable of world-wide communication, even satcomms.
I think then I'd go with putting it towards an actual home freeze-drying setup.
Quote from: Beowolf on February 22, 2024, 07:06:24 PM@Moab all due respect, but my question was what would *you* buy, not what should *I* buy.
Yes, in this particular thread, there is a muddy distinction between the two, but the reality is that I have a little extra money plus--as mentioned--I have a good handle on what I have. Thus I posed the question to the community, if you were in the same situation, how would you spend $100-200?
I was trying to have a conversation that might include some different perspectives on how we--we, not I--prioritize our needs and wants.
I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. You're question just seemed to be a little unsure about what you needed.
"Yes, it's actually a real question. But I also think I am sitting
pretty okay. I think."
I didn't understand the connection between what we would buy and what you would buy. It also seemed like you were asking so as to apply it to your own prep needs. Or perhaps things you hadn't considered.
But again. My apologies.
I think if you are trying to figure what to spend your $100-$200 on - it would be helpful to give us a bit of background. Your AO, your plans and how well outfitted you are. Even if its just general areas and how much you are prepared. With that information we could give you much more precise suggestions.
What we are going to buy - as we are in very different situations and goals - isn't going to help you as much. As if we had some general direction to go on.
Quote from: Beowolf on February 22, 2024, 07:06:24 PMI was trying to have a conversation that might include some different perspectives on how we--we, not I--prioritize our needs and wants.
I try to keep my preparedness organized by categories, and try to keep those even with regard to spending. Although I do have shortfalls. It's because I might add a goal which would take a category that I was sitting comfortable and move it to something that needs addressing right now.
For instance i just reached a financial goal of 6 months emergency cash. So I've moved the goal post to 9 months. Same with my food. I've got 4 months for 2 people, but now going for 6 months.
And I want to upgrade my emergency power to LPG.
And I don't really know what category this goes under yet, but I don't have any radiological/biological/chemical preps other than Iodine tabs, but those are under medical. I'm talking gas masks, tape, plastic, Geiger counter, detectors, Hazmat, decon, etc. Maybe 'Security'.
(https://i.imgur.com/Se0yY1d.png)
Looking at this graph and my previous post, I said the first thing I said I'd buy with the extra cash would be food.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on February 23, 2024, 07:51:13 AMQuote from: Beowolf on February 22, 2024, 07:06:24 PMI was trying to have a conversation that might include some different perspectives on how we--we, not I--prioritize our needs and wants.
I try to keep my preparedness organized by categories, and try to keep those even with regard to spending. Although I do have shortfalls. It's because I might add a goal which would take a category that I was sitting comfortable and move it to something that needs addressing right now.
For instance i just reached a financial goal of 6 months emergency cash. So I've moved the goal post to 9 months. Same with my food. I've got 4 months for 2 people, but now going for 6 months.
And I want to upgrade my emergency power to LPG.
And I don't really know what category this goes under yet, but I don't have any radiological/biological/chemical preps other than Iodine tabs, but those are under medical. I'm talking gas masks, tape, plastic, Geiger counter, detectors, Hazmat, decon, etc. Maybe 'Security'.
(https://i.imgur.com/Se0yY1d.png)
Looking at this graph and my previous post, I said the first thing I said I'd buy with the extra cash would be food.
Nice. 👍
Mountain House is having another sale for Red Cross Month, so that's always tempting. And emergency food is always a good idea, as others have mentioned.
On that topic--what are the better options for water storage? I've bought a couple of cases of bottled water, but is there a better option for something that might sit for 6-12 months, or should I make a habit of rotating stock on a regular basis?
Quote from: Beowolf on March 02, 2024, 06:19:35 PMMountain House is having another sale for Red Cross Month, so that's always tempting. And emergency food is always a good idea, as others have mentioned.
On that topic--what are the better options for water storage? I've bought a couple of cases of bottled water, but is there a better option for something that might sit for 6-12 months, or should I make a habit of rotating stock on a regular basis?
I assume your talking what type of containers and methods?
I forget which section. But there is a long discussion about water containers for cheap and functionality. Keep in mind the big difference is stationary water storage (to big to move) and containers you can easily transport by hand. Generally keep an idea in mind of how much you or your loved ones can carry. For that reason I would look at 3 gallon containers. 5 gallon only if you can carry them.
Search water containers on the forum.
Excellent, will do.
The bottles I currently have are something like 750ml or 1L, so transport is doable in both relative bulk or as grab-and-go.
https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=2142.msg40568#msg40568
https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=1415.msg38462#msg38462
In a vacuum, probably just long-term food storage stuff. Maybe a good dehydrator, mine's about shot.
If I had $200 to combine with my pile of Cabela's points I'd go for a carbine optic.
If I had an incremental $200 on top of what's in the Fun Fund, I'd probably go have my long range 700 milled for an external bolt release, thread it, and other small stuff... or rebarrel my .270, one of the two.
Quote from: Beowolf on March 02, 2024, 06:19:35 PMMountain House is having another sale for Red Cross Month, so that's always tempting. And emergency food is always a good idea, as others have mentioned.
On that topic--what are the better options for water storage? I've bought a couple of cases of bottled water, but is there a better option for something that might sit for 6-12 months, or should I make a habit of rotating stock on a regular basis?
In one of the links
@Moab posted I described a 5 gallon storage containers which had stored tap water for more than five years and the water was fine. But I changed it out. Rinsing the container with a water and chlorine mix, then filling with tap water. IMO the residual chlorine will keep it for longer than 5 years. But the prepper rule of thumb is one year rotation schedule.
Quote from: Moab on March 02, 2024, 07:35:57 PMhttps://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=2142.msg40568#msg40568
https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=1415.msg38462#msg38462
Ordered two of the Aqua-tainers!
I'd probably lay back some silver. It's been cheap lately. I don't keep much for alternate currency and due to it's low historical usage in my lifetime it is a low priority item.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 04, 2024, 08:40:51 AMI'd probably lay back some silver. It's been cheap lately. I don't keep much for alternate currency and due to it's low historical usage in my lifetime it is a low priority item.
Depending on what your investing for...
Medication. Antibiotics and pain meds would be worth far more in a shtf situation. And you can carry far more weightwise. Meds are ultra light weight. The same weight in silver or gold vs pain meds - you'd have far mire vakue in meds. And priceless if none are available. Gold and silver would be volatile price wise until things settled down and everyone could agree on worth. And then your carrying around pounds of metal vs ounces of meds. Even common meds.
Just purchased a 3-day package of Mountain House along with a sampler pack. That's $105 plus the $30 on the Aqua-tainers. I figure another $50-60 on prep related items will be money well spent.
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I'll be in a better place than I was when I started this thread, and that was the point. But please do keep any additional suggestions coming.
Quote from: Moab on March 04, 2024, 06:35:53 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 04, 2024, 08:40:51 AMI'd probably lay back some silver. It's been cheap lately. I don't keep much for alternate currency and due to it's low historical usage in my lifetime it is a low priority item.
Depending on what your investing for...
Medication. Antibiotics and pain meds would be worth far more in a shtf situation. And you can carry far more weightwise. Meds are ultra light weight. The same weight in silver or gold vs pain meds - you'd have far mire vakue in meds. And priceless if none are available. Gold and silver would be volatile price wise until things settled down and everyone could agree on worth. And then your carrying around pounds of metal vs ounces of meds. Even common meds.
I wouldn't want people knowing I had meds, especially pain meds. It's a great way to get robbed by violent people willing to kill to get them. I have plenty of non-script stuff though.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 04, 2024, 08:09:30 PMQuote from: Moab on March 04, 2024, 06:35:53 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 04, 2024, 08:40:51 AMI'd probably lay back some silver. It's been cheap lately. I don't keep much for alternate currency and due to it's low historical usage in my lifetime it is a low priority item.
Depending on what your investing for...
Medication. Antibiotics and pain meds would be worth far more in a shtf situation. And you can carry far more weightwise. Meds are ultra light weight. The same weight in silver or gold vs pain meds - you'd have far mire vakue in meds. And priceless if none are available. Gold and silver would be volatile price wise until things settled down and everyone could agree on worth. And then your carrying around pounds of metal vs ounces of meds. Even common meds.
I wouldn't want people knowing I had meds, especially pain meds. It's a great way to get robbed by violent people willing to kill to get them. I have plenty of non-script stuff though.
Selco has several strategies for exchanging goods in a shtf. The guy that survived the Bosnian War? Remember him? His online shtf instruction is very good. I purchased it.
Its all the same whether you have gold or meds or any supplies. You have to set up secure ways of trading with anyone. Anything of value your using to pay for goods and services. Is worth killing you over - in the extreme.
Quote from: Moab on March 05, 2024, 01:07:23 AMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 04, 2024, 08:09:30 PMQuote from: Moab on March 04, 2024, 06:35:53 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 04, 2024, 08:40:51 AMI'd probably lay back some silver. It's been cheap lately. I don't keep much for alternate currency and due to it's low historical usage in my lifetime it is a low priority item.
Depending on what your investing for...
Medication. Antibiotics and pain meds would be worth far more in a shtf situation. And you can carry far more weightwise. Meds are ultra light weight. The same weight in silver or gold vs pain meds - you'd have far mire vakue in meds. And priceless if none are available. Gold and silver would be volatile price wise until things settled down and everyone could agree on worth. And then your carrying around pounds of metal vs ounces of meds. Even common meds.
I wouldn't want people knowing I had meds, especially pain meds. It's a great way to get robbed by violent people willing to kill to get them. I have plenty of non-script stuff though.
Selco has several strategies for exchanging goods in a shtf. The guy that survived the Bosnian War? Remember him? His online shtf instruction is very good. I purchased it.
Its all the same whether you have gold or meds or any supplies. You have to set up secure ways of trading with anyone. Anything of value your using to pay for goods and services. Is worth killing you over - in the extreme.
I guessed he missed the part of the movie where a close friend or family member sold him out. Doesn't matter though. Drug dealers kill each other every day in record numbers in the US. Home invasions often happen just because someone thinks there is a stash in a house somewhere. Practically every violent criminal in the US who isn't a psychopath (and many who are) has a substance abuse problem. That is with ROL. If they no longer fear going to jail it will only get worse.
You do you, but my threat matrix says it isn't worth it.
I wouldn't accept gold or any precious metals or gems as barter in the PAW. I'd have no way of knowing if they are fake. Or drugs.
Question for those collecting large pieces of precious metals. How are you going to buy small items with them in the PAW? What's your strategy going to be? You have this 1 oz silver bar, I have this loaf of bread. :smiley_shrug: Maybe you'll see trades of 10 gallons of gas or 20 lbs of rice per oz. Some metals are sold in gram sizes within an authenticator card. Maybe those would work. Smaller denominations.
Now if you were really going to corner the market on precious metals in the PAW you'd stockpile the testers for metals and gems. And trade them for oz of metals or carats of gems. And also offer a service for traders to come and exchange stuff. Pawn shop owners will be set already unless they need power to operate these testers and don't have it. [yeah zirconium and lab grown gems can fool electronic testers]
Bullets as currency, and skilled work, unskilled work, as services or commodities for commodity barter.
Example of Currency denominations using bullets; a rough breakdown in the PAW. Valued as per cartridge/round.
Lead/copper/powder/brass component parts by the oz or gr
22LR
32 cal / 380 No value in the PAW, melt them down and collect the powder. :greenguy:
9mm / 40 S&W
45 ACP
Hunting Cals [243, 30-30, 30-06, 7mm, 300 wsm, etc. all the same value]
Surplus Cals [303, 762x29, 762x54, 8mm, etc]
223/556/300BO et al
762x51 or x39 / 308 cal
Anything larger
QuoteYou have this 1 oz silver bar, I have this loaf of bread. (https://ufozs.com/smf/Smileys/hyves/smiley_shrug.gif) Maybe you'll see trades of 10 gallons of gas or 20 lbs of rice per oz.
I will take a thousand of gas at 10 gallons per ounce of silver. That is under selling by gas prices at my local station. It's true, nobody knows how much anything will cost in the future PAW. That is why it has been a low priority for me. But you are assuming a WROL type scenario.
So long as there is some kind of structure to society, precious metals will continue to have value and in times of economic crisis those values tend to rise. But even if they don't let's try an example:
Let's say my government local peso is worth 5/Euro and I have 100 ounces of silver which is worth 4 Pesos each or 20 Euros an ounce. So 100 ounces = 400 Pesos or 2000 Euros
The government decides to borrow $100 Trillion dollars and give it away to buy votes for the next mid-term election, creating hyper inflation. Our peso is now worth .5/Euro but my silver is still worth 20 Euros an ounce. That means that my silver should now be worth 2000 Euros or 4000 Pesos.
I think this is more likely than trading for a loaf of bread or whatever, you would have to ask around in Zimbabwe.
QuoteBullets as currency, and skilled work, unskilled work, as services or commodities for commodity barter.
Hard pass. I can load my own. In my fantasy PAW I'm am not interested in arming potential rivals for resources or trading for ammunition of unknown quality. I'm sure you will get some takers.
QuotePawn shop owners will be set already unless they need power to operate these testers and don't have it. [yeah zirconium and lab grown gems can fool electronic testers]
Around here, pawn shop owners are some of the most prepared people out there. Most all of the successful ones I know have large spreads with everything you might possibly imagine you might need and bunch stuff you never would have thought of.
I plan for worst case scenario. Not because I'm convinced that will ever happen. But because it's a fail safe strategy. And I'm not wasting my time on half measures.
If the government is functioning enough that currency is being manipulated. I have no worries about when the disaster will end.
If there is gas, and roads, and I am in a vehicle. Weight is of less a concern. And again, so is the probability of a disaster turning into a PAW.
I tend to vie on the side of scenarios like Selco's. A disaster (war) that happened recently and was an extended PAW. They lost all services, safety, food, clean water, and as a result society devolved into a PAW. And there are many other examples of this all over the world. Recently.
The probability of ending up on foot, at least daily, is relatively high. Unless your a backpacker, hiker, military or long range hunter. You don't realize how precious little room there is in a pack. Ounces equal pounds very very quickly. Just trying to meet your survival needs is a huge exercise in choosing from thousands of items with thousands of different weights.
And the more you carry the less mobile you get. Which equals survival. When everyone has lost their minds because their children are literally starving. Or dieing from disease. (Because not even simple sanitation is available. Iirc bleach and toilet paper were some of the most valuable items in Bosnia. As lack of sanitation was a top killer.) Your need for pack contents is a knife edge between surviving on the items you have - and dieing because you were to slow and worn out - because you carried to many of them. Or to heavy of each item.
The difference between something valuable for trade - like heavy metals and something much more lightweight - is critical.
I have routinely read for years about what will get you killed in a PAW. Greyman this and greyman that. What you should or shouldn't prep for trade or barter.
*The only way to survive a PAW - at a minimum - is with survival supplies and a means of protecting yourself.
A pack and a long gun.
A pair of Carhartts and an old tool bag with a crowbar are not going to do it.
So at minimum - if you are surviving - you are walking around with a pack and a long gun.
No one trying to keep their dieing child alive. Bad guy or good - the motivation is the same - cares what you look like. They can easily tell you have a bag and a gun. From far away. And thats all that matters. They are going to rob you. One way or another. Whether its trickery or brute force or both.
That changes everything. And there is no escaping it. Your not gonna survive by having your long gun hidden in your pack. It won't deploy fast enough. And it won't do away with you having a pack or bag. Which is the main reason they are going to rob or just kill you in the first place.
Selling or trading a piece of gold or a pain pill or a knife or a skill or anything is all going to be equally dangerous. Because they all have value, and everything you have on you (pack and gun) has value. And remember its not just criminals.
Its motivation enough when your starving or dieing from lack of meds or other survival items to turn you into a desparate person. Now factor in your 6 year old little girl? Are you willing to steal for her? Are you willing to maim for her? Are you willing to exchange some strangers life for hers? If you have a child - you'll understand. There is nothing off limits. People kill all the time in regular life for far less.
So does it matter if your gold or silver or pain med is more or less valuable to a greedy person or a drug addict or any number of starving people trying to save one of thousands of starving or dieing children? No.
**You need the lightest weight, most valuable commodity you can stockpile. The danger is the same either way.**
Selco was ambushed and double crossed on many occasions while surviving the war. While trying to barter for goods. Whether he was carrying ammo or toilet paper to exchange.
He details several good strategies they developed for doing so. As safely as possible. And thats the best case scenario - "... as safely as possible.". There is no fail safe. There is no perfect way. And there is no safe barter product.
Obviously skills are at the top of the list in a safe community. If such a thing will exist - a safe community. It didn't in Bosnia. Beyond your barricaded block or house. Which was still not secure. He ribbed several times.
But skills require a fixed position for a set amount of time. Which has it's own safety issues. If said community or group wants your doctor, or welder, or dentist skills its easy enough to move you to their secure compound. And make you their resident professional. Or simply hold you at gunpoint while you weld their trailer or fix their kids tooth.
Goods on the other hand can be hidden.
Selco had a few techniques for dropping goods, trading, and finalizing the transaction. Not perfect mind you. But it at least gave you a chance.
And didn't matter if he was dressed as a member of the clergy or an assassin. It didn't matter what he was trading. And he always had his pack and rifle. Because he never knew when or if he would be returning to a relatively safe location. And without those two things, his pack and his rifle, he wasn't going to survive.
I highly encourage anyone to buy his course. It's full of very valuable knowledge. And if nothing else it might open your eyes to what a total breakdown of society actually looks like. It's not like the movies. And to often we as Americans see to little of the very real world outside of our country. That has been breaking down and building back up for centuries.
QuoteSo at minimum - if you are surviving - you are walking around with a pack and a long gun.
Not happening. I'll stay right here with my friends, coworkers and neighbors until it is time to flee to the hunting cabin in the mountains. Then we take a select few and disappear in the middle of the night. Then we stay there till the internet and lights are back on, or not. I'm too old and cranky to be walking around with a pack and a long gun. Not to mention the nephropathy in my feet from 24 years of walking around with a pack and a gun.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 05, 2024, 09:39:42 PMQuoteSo at minimum - if you are surviving - you are walking around with a pack and a long gun.
Not happening. I'll stay right here with my friends, coworkers and neighbors until it is time to flee to the hunting cabin in the mountains. Then we take a select few and disappear in the middle of the night. Then we stay there till the internet and lights are back on, or not. I'm too old and cranky to be walking around with a pack and a long gun. Not to mention the nephropathy in my feet from 24 years of walking around with a pack and a gun.
So if your not leaving your BIL or your BOL. Why are you saving items to barter?
Quote from: Moab on March 05, 2024, 09:47:19 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 05, 2024, 09:39:42 PMQuoteSo at minimum - if you are surviving - you are walking around with a pack and a long gun.
Not happening. I'll stay right here with my friends, coworkers and neighbors until it is time to flee to the hunting cabin in the mountains. Then we take a select few and disappear in the middle of the night. Then we stay there till the internet and lights are back on, or not. I'm too old and cranky to be walking around with a pack and a long gun. Not to mention the nephropathy in my feet from 24 years of walking around with a pack and a gun.
So if your not leaving your BIL or your BOL. Why are you saving items to barter?
You should go read my above post.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on March 05, 2024, 10:31:42 AMQuestion for those collecting large pieces of precious metals. How are you going to buy small items with them in the PAW? What's your strategy going to be? You have this 1 oz silver bar, I have this loaf of bread. :smiley_shrug:
The short answer is that you have asked a pretty fair question about the difficulty of
making change with such stores of value, I think.
Best case I think you're looking at physical division (maybe). I think a more realistic barter situation is that you get as close as you practically can in terms of traded value, and then somebody eats the difference. Probably you, if the situation is bad.
Thinking more as I get some coffee in me. I'd guess the situation itself would dictate how flexible you could be... take the gas example, for instance. Maybe you pay the station up front with a Krugerrand, which is like $2K or something right now, and then they basically debit down your account as you fuel up. I could see that being pretty realistic, depending on circumstances.
Quote from: Lodewijk on March 06, 2024, 07:57:24 AMQuote from: MacWa77ace on March 05, 2024, 10:31:42 AMQuestion for those collecting large pieces of precious metals. How are you going to buy small items with them in the PAW? What's your strategy going to be? You have this 1 oz silver bar, I have this loaf of bread. :smiley_shrug:
The short answer is that you have asked a pretty fair question about the difficulty of making change with such stores of value, I think.
Best case I think you're looking at physical division (maybe). I think a more realistic barter situation is that you get as close as you practically can in terms of traded value, and then somebody eats the difference. Probably you, if the situation is bad.
Thinking more as I get some coffee in me. I'd guess the situation itself would dictate how flexible you could be... take the gas example, for instance. Maybe you pay the station up front with a Krugerrand, which is like $2K or something right now, and then they basically debit down your account as you fuel up. I could see that being pretty realistic, depending on circumstances.
I think the problem with the "debit down" concept is that in order for it to work there are two conditions that must exist, a reliable resupply stream to the seller; and no panic buying or hoarding.
If there's no resupply then chances are the next time you want to fuel up their tanks will be dry. If there's panic buying, their tanks might run dry before your first purchase is completed, and will almost certainly be dry when you come back.
If both of those conditions are met then is there really any emergency happening?
Yes, it certainly does imply that. Totally agree.
Is that an emergency... I dunno. It's on the sliding scale someplace between zombies climbing out of the ground and business as usual, I guess.
My main issue with framing precious metals as an "emergency item" rather than as a store of value in an wider investment plan is that you're banking on what Taiichi Ohno would call "value to customer" holding steady when everyone's priorities turn upside-down. I can certainly envision situations where gold won't do that.
But as a general thing to have around when times get rough or even if they don't, sure, I can see utility. It's just another tool to have available.
Is my .5 oz gold plate necklace going to be worth the same as .5 oz of 99.9 pure gold if no one can tell the difference?
I had a buddy who's family owned a pawn shop. They had a metal's polisher that was nothing more than a buffer wheel. It would take off minute amounts of the metals polished as part of the 'buffing' process, and that would 'pile up' as 'dust' on the machine. Well my buddy 'cleaned' it and everyone freaked 'cause he threw out probably a couple hundred $$s of dust.
So again, how can you tell the difference between a 'nugget' or 'dust' of 14 kt, 18 kt, or 99.999 pure gold? How can you measure, how can you test?
Hypothetical: I can melt down a bunch of 14kt chains and pour an ingot, weigh it and stamp its weight and 99.999 pure. That's a fake that almost doubled its value. Lot of work though.
https://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Appraisal-Electronic-Magnifier-Precious/dp/B08TRW9PXR/ref=asc_df_B08TRW9PXR&mcid=4a5801e90fe734f2813c9838f8e49fe0?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80676783691785&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584276309438275&psc=1
Quote from: MacWa77ace on March 06, 2024, 11:19:50 AMIs my .5 oz gold plate necklace going to be worth the same as .5 oz of 99.9 pure gold if no one can tell the difference?
So again, how can you tell the difference between a 'nugget' or 'dust' of 14 kt, 18 kt, or 99.999 pure gold? How can you measure, how can you test?
Hypothetical: I can melt down a bunch of 14kt chains and pour an ingot, weigh it and stamp its weight and 99.999 pure.
Weight bud
Edit: going by memory so I could be way off, but on the last item above a 14kt bar and a 24 kt bar both weighing one pound should not be the same size dimensionally.
Quote from: Lodewijk on March 06, 2024, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: MacWa77ace on March 06, 2024, 11:19:50 AMIs my .5 oz gold plate necklace going to be worth the same as .5 oz of 99.9 pure gold if no one can tell the difference?
So again, how can you tell the difference between a 'nugget' or 'dust' of 14 kt, 18 kt, or 99.999 pure gold? How can you measure, how can you test?
Hypothetical: I can melt down a bunch of 14kt chains and pour an ingot, weigh it and stamp its weight and 99.999 pure.
Weight bud
LOL, how much volume per gram and who can eyeball that without some sort of scales etc. We're talking humans here, not metallurgists.
So what preps are you going to need to be a successful trader in gems and metals in the PAW?
I can't really tell the difference by 'looking' at at 14kt chain and a plate chain that both have different links and lengths. And if you weigh them, of course they will be different weights cause one has a thick link and is two inches longer than the other. Now I might know to look on the clasp for a 925 which means gold plate on sterling silver, but what percent of people know that?
(https://i.imgur.com/HcTZep9.jpg)
:clownshoes:
I mean... you pretty literally asked how to tell gold purities apart. Weight (really mass density) is a valid answer.
Sorry about that? lol
Quote from: MacWa77ace on March 06, 2024, 12:16:47 PMQuote from: Lodewijk on March 06, 2024, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: MacWa77ace on March 06, 2024, 11:19:50 AMIs my .5 oz gold plate necklace going to be worth the same as .5 oz of 99.9 pure gold if no one can tell the difference?
So again, how can you tell the difference between a 'nugget' or 'dust' of 14 kt, 18 kt, or 99.999 pure gold? How can you measure, how can you test?
Hypothetical: I can melt down a bunch of 14kt chains and pour an ingot, weigh it and stamp its weight and 99.999 pure.
Weight bud
LOL, how much volume per gram and who can eyeball that without some sort of scales etc. We're talking humans here, not metallurgists.
So what preps are you going to need to be a successful trader in gems and metals in the PAW?
I can't really tell the difference by 'looking' at at 14kt chain and a plate chain that both have different links and lengths. And if you weigh them, of course they will be different weights cause one has a thick link and is two inches longer than the other. Now I might know to look on the clasp for a 925 which means gold plate on sterling silver, but what percent of people know that?
(https://i.imgur.com/HcTZep9.jpg)
Can't you just bite into it? Like how they check gold coins in the movies? That's how I thought it was done. ;)
Seriously though. I did see an electronic device the other day. Like a voltage checker. But this guy was going around his local thrift store and testing chains. If the device lights up green. There's gold in it or on it. I have no idea if it's real. But it certainly doesn't tell you purity.
I think some people have this idea that a PAW is like Medieval times. Where everyone gathers in the town square. And trades goods with each other. While laughing and singing.
More likely I think its going to be a location guarded and controlled by whatever local militia has taken control. Otherwise you're just trading outside of that one on one. Or small group to small group.
In any event it's not going to be safe. I think the US food economy is like 3 days (don't quote me on that. But its something stupidly short) away from total collapse. Everything is trucked to just about every store in the nation. Once that shuts down stores will be empty within a day. If not quicker. And the food will run out shortly there after. So you can imagine how quickly the world will devolve into chaos.
Imagine the 20 million people in your local largest city. Fanning out within a few days, with their children, across the countryside. Desparately looking for food. Wanting to trade you a gold necklace for a case of beans. Are you going to even answer the door? After the first 1200 people stop by? And when you don't answer - how long before they just start breaking into houses?
Not to mention within a week the price of that case of beans is going to be easily worth a life. People lose their minds after a few days without food. Not to mention cold, wet, walking on foot because their gas tank went empty. People are going to start hoarding. Not pretty.
@Moab that link i posted earlier is to a metal and gem tester kit on amazon.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on March 06, 2024, 12:16:47 PMQuote from: Lodewijk on March 06, 2024, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: MacWa77ace on March 06, 2024, 11:19:50 AMIs my .5 oz gold plate necklace going to be worth the same as .5 oz of 99.9 pure gold if no one can tell the difference?
So again, how can you tell the difference between a 'nugget' or 'dust' of 14 kt, 18 kt, or 99.999 pure gold? How can you measure, how can you test?
Hypothetical: I can melt down a bunch of 14kt chains and pour an ingot, weigh it and stamp its weight and 99.999 pure.
Weight bud
LOL, how much volume per gram and who can eyeball that without some sort of scales etc. We're talking humans here, not metallurgists.
So what preps are you going to need to be a successful trader in gems and metals in the PAW?
I can't really tell the difference by 'looking' at at 14kt chain and a plate chain that both have different links and lengths. And if you weigh them, of course they will be different weights cause one has a thick link and is two inches longer than the other. Now I might know to look on the clasp for a 925 which means gold plate on sterling silver, but what percent of people know that?
(https://i.imgur.com/HcTZep9.jpg)
I've got three different jeweler's scales that I use. Any of them would easily fit in a pocket, indeed, one of them is intended just for that purpose (for weighing diamonds in the NYC diamond district) and includes calibration weights.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on March 06, 2024, 04:37:20 PM@Moab that link i posted earlier is to a metal and gem tester kit on amazon.
I missed that. The one I saw was an electronic pen. Looked like a circuit tester.
Who thought that saving silver as a store of value against inflation would be so controversial?
Against Inflation not so much, for use in the PAW, looks like it'll have to be sorted out after.
(https://i.imgflip.com/39ab8y.jpg)
Quote from: MacWa77ace on March 07, 2024, 03:21:23 PMAgainst Inflation not so much, for use in the PAW, looks like it'll have to be sorted out after.
(https://i.imgflip.com/39ab8y.jpg)
Much like wearing that tie with that shirt.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 06, 2024, 08:01:36 PMWho thought that saving silver as a store of value against inflation would be so controversial?
The difference is prepping it simply for inflation and prepping for a PAW. I completely agree with prepping gold and silver for terribly bad inflation. As long you have a trusted institution that can set fair rates. And some form of standardized testing. In a PAW those difficulties and transport seem problematic.
But we often get into discussions about prepping. Where one person is thinking PAW and another is thinking 6 months temporary grid down. Two very different scenarios. For everything. Not just currency.
And one person's definition or vision of each can be very different.
Quote from: Moab on March 07, 2024, 07:56:38 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 06, 2024, 08:01:36 PMWho thought that saving silver as a store of value against inflation would be so controversial?
The difference is prepping it simply for inflation and prepping for a PAW. I completely agree with prepping gold and silver for terribly bad inflation. As long you have a trusted institution that can set fair rates. And some form of standardized testing. In a PAW those difficulties and transport seem problematic.
But we often get into discussions about prepping. Where one person is thinking PAW and another is thinking 6 months temporary grid down. Two very different scenarios. For everything. Not just currency.
And one person's definition or vision of each can be very different.
OP:
QuoteI was trying to have a conversation that might include some different perspectives on how we--we, not I--prioritize our needs and wants.
I mostly prepare for the most likely events rather than the most dangerous. The most dangerous would be global nuclear war. There will be few survivors of that around the states. But hyperinflation and shortages? A lot of people think that is unthinkable but it has happened here before.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 07, 2024, 08:18:54 PMQuote from: Moab on March 07, 2024, 07:56:38 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on March 06, 2024, 08:01:36 PMWho thought that saving silver as a store of value against inflation would be so controversial?
The difference is prepping it simply for inflation and prepping for a PAW. I completely agree with prepping gold and silver for terribly bad inflation. As long you have a trusted institution that can set fair rates. And some form of standardized testing. In a PAW those difficulties and transport seem problematic.
But we often get into discussions about prepping. Where one person is thinking PAW and another is thinking 6 months temporary grid down. Two very different scenarios. For everything. Not just currency.
And one person's definition or vision of each can be very different.
OP:
QuoteI was trying to have a conversation that might include some different perspectives on how we--we, not I--prioritize our needs and wants.
I mostly prepare for the most likely events rather than the most dangerous. The most dangerous would be global nuclear war. There will be few survivors of that around the states. But hyperinflation and shortages? A lot of people think that is unthinkable but it has happened here before.
Agreed. It also depends a GREAT deal on your AO. I live next to LAX. I can think of a laundry list of manmade and natural disasters that could befall me. I can't possibly prepare for them all.
But I think there is a much higher likelihood of the aftermath - including most of the dangers I mention above. The citizenry of LA is very different than say Omaha. (Although I know jack sh*t about Omaha.)But you get my point. If things are going to devolve into chaos. It's going to be here.
But I also don't think its going to take long for all the major cities to fan out across most of America. Most of LA would probably flee as far as there gas could take them. At least into smaller towns or more out of the way areas with basic resources. And a relative amount of safety. Meaning slightly safer than the major cities.
I'm looking at 3 main types based on my AO. YMMV by AO. If I plan for these then I should be good for every type in between these if we can survive the initial cause.
Hurricanes. A direct hit cat 4 and above and that's at least 1-2 weeks with no power. And everything that goes with no power for that time period in the affected region.
Nuclear power plant disaster, I'm 60 miles from one. Prevailing winds and distance are a plus for any radiation but evacuations and refugees and infra structure will be chaos for a while.
A 6 month or less Grid Down like
@Moab is mentioning, there's a long list of causes for this, natural, govt, human. But if its effect is a grid down for only 6 months, and just in my country, I'd expect total chaos after 3 weeks. Probably some govt tyranny including but not limited to, overreach locally, state and fed, definitely shortages and life threatening and altering situations. Possible recovery in a year after the grid comes back up with a lot less population . World wide grid down for less than 6 months and recovery would be in the decades with dire consequences. More than 6 months :smiley_shrug:
I was watching an interview yesterday with a well respected Navy Seal. I forget his name. He has a fairly famous podcast. He lives in Montana. He was asked about what would happen in a shtf or paw. He made a comment about "you're about 9 meals away from everything breaking down". Meaning in three days the foods going to run out.
He's a pretty laid back guy. And does not prep much. But he does have an acute knowledge of societal breakdown, considering all the places he's worked.
https://youtu.be/sS7MrapVjnc?si=RBgKgHtfQV-zjk_V