Okay...housing costs have gotten RIDICULOUS. Anyone who has tried to rent or buy an apartment/condo/house/trailer/land within the past 4 years or so can attest to this.
For the most part, incomes have not risen at the same rate as housing costs.
So, what housing alternatives are there that are less costly and possibly sustainable for the long term?
Here's a few ideas:
Roommates/home-sharing. (more on this later)
Tiny houses (although the costs of those have sky-rocketed as well)
Used mobile homes. (they may need work)
Used construction/office trailers. (also may need work)
Yurts (on a semi-permanent foundation)
Campers on self-owned land or rented land or (if permitted) in a trailer park.
Tents (there are tents, and then there are TENTS, former military know what I'm talking about)
Rooming house. (few and far between these days, but possible)
I'm starting this thread so we can brainstorm, look into the legalities (varies from place to place) and explore the pros and cons of each option.
I'll be expanding on this topic later, but I wanted to get it started.
If you can think of any other options, please list them, I'm kinda doing a deep dive on this right now and would be more than happy to search other alternatives.
I just did a deep dive on manufactured homes. Or modern mobile homes. This woman has a long series of videos on buying land and manufactured homes. In plain english but with detail.
This seems to be the only way to "homestead" these days thats affordable. And even more affordable are used manufactured homes. There are many legalities to it. But her videos shed light on every concern.
Go to her channel. This is just one.
https://youtu.be/gZC1fyF7hJk?si=NIDVMGw0qsDHjusE
this has always been my fallback.
(https://img.ifunny.co/images/be60c158a20457f46931e26947c61cd6f89e03888684944840a7d8898cf67445_1.jpg)
There are lot of variables by location. What works in South MS may or may not work in New England.
That said there are a few out of the box, as yet undiscussed options.
Live on a Boat (in a Marina):
https://www.living-aboard.com/florida-liveaboard-marinas.html
It is quite possible to buy a fiberglass (never wood) boat that is adequate for living purposes. The price of these boats range from $5,000 to $50,000. They will have HVAC, refrigeration and the comforts of a house. The main draw back is that cheap marina space is getting a lot harder to find and many marinas are prohibiting live aboard tenants. The other draw back is that this is mainly a warm climate option and weather is a factor.
As long as the boat is not used for travelling the R&M costs can be kept to a minimum and treated much like a condo on land.
BTW loans for vessels are available with 20% down & 15 year terms.
Mid price range examples, I linked only power boats examples:
https://www.boats.com/power-boats/1975-pacemaker-40-my-8464063/
https://www.boats.com/power-boats/1986-mainship-double-cabin-8798228/
https://www.boats.com/power-boats/1982-chris-craft-catalina-381-7558368/
Sail boats would be cheaper (per foot) but not as roomy and would have fewer interior cubit feet.
Relocate to a lower cost area.
Rural areas tend to be cheaper but of course this is not desirable if there is no employment opportunities or there is a need for medical care. Still this is a possibility. A low cost of residential living nearly always means less demand for housing in the area due to fewer services and opportunities.
Still these are examples of homes in rural communities. These BTW frequently qualify for USDA financing which means as little as 5% down (sometimes).
examples:
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1180-Quinlivan-Rd_McComb_MS_39648_M72873-83458?from=srp-map-list
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/418-2nd-St-SW_Reform_AL_35481_M74249-83960?from=srp-map-list
I had completely forgotten about boats!
Houseboats, sailboats, etc.
Marinas aren't just at saltwater ports. Lakes, rivers, any large body of water.
I had a friend that lived in a houseboat on the James River for 2 years of college, it was a desperation situation, but they made it work (back in the late 70s).
This discussion reminds a bit of
@superduder 's 9/7 post in his Cabin/Bunkhouse plans Anyone? thread (https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=1652.msg34363#msg34363). The idea of multiple small/tiny homes on shared land. As I said to someone in the same boat as me (nearing retirement, don't own a home/limited wealth): "We're just going to have to get creative." UFoZS retirement/prepper community anyone?
Small, self sufficient individual housing (own bath, kitchen and laundry facilities) that each resident owns outright, surrounding a shared clubhouse with group kitchen/dining area, workshop, arts/crafts/hobby studio, library, game room and - of course - a furnished basement/shelter well-stocked with survival supplies.
One can dream, right?
Quote from: majorhavoc on September 08, 2023, 10:06:27 PMThis discussion reminds a bit of @superduder 's 9/7 post in his Cabin/Bunkhouse plans Anyone? thread (https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=1652.msg34363#msg34363). The idea of multiple small/tiny homes on shared land. As I said to someone in the same boat as me (nearing retirement, don't own a home/limited wealth): "We're just going to have to get creative." UFoZS retirement/prepper community anyone?
Small, self sufficient individual housing (own bath, kitchen and laundry facilities) that each resident owns outright, surrounding a shared clubhouse with group kitchen/dining area, workshop, arts/crafts/hobby studio, library, game room and - of course - a furnished basement/shelter well-stocked with survival supplies.
One can dream, right?
It could be done,
My aunt's second husband and his friends bought a golf course outside Russia Ohio, that had it's own aquifer.
They got water/mineral rights to the property, which took care of property taxes,
They each chose a "Hole" and put a travel trailer there for a getaway spot, or possible escape community.
they did it back in the 60s so all the trailers are old canned ham type or park model trailers from the 40's and 50's
that are like time capsules in the woods.
I recently bought another property,
a little over a half acre of unincorporated/non zoned land (.66AC) for a secondary/possible income property.
I (using good old 3D home architect) laid out one .22 acre lot and did plans for one 10X20... Bungalow (?) cabin.
Just to see what kind of space I'm really dealing with,
Well Suffice it to say IF I wanted to do the traditional "Rack'em and Stack'em"
a.k.a. "Prison Cell but with more privacy" style of housing,
Not that I have that many people in my group (I don't even know 42 adults personally),
but it's nice to have room for company. Right...?
I could make do with housing on one lot and farming/animal husbandry on the second and third lots.
Each cabin would have it's own bathroom (standard toilet and 36"x36" shower),
kitchen (with RV 110/12v/propane fridge and propane RV cooktop), and small 8X16 storage cellar.
Two bunks and a "jack knife" fold out sofa for bedding
Each can (hypothetically of course) house 3 adults, there's no utilities at the location though
so water tanks, or a VERY deep well and gas/propane or diesel generator
and/or wind & solar aso would be a necessity it would be cozy, borderline crowded, but again Could be done.
My previously mentioned "gun guy" has even tried to convince me to get a 16X22 Mil-Surp tent for the property
Think Mess Hall from M.A.S.H, yeah $2500 is Much cheaper than a built shed/cabin,
and being able to store 4 of them in a 5X12 cargo trailer is handy if you don't want to set up shelters,
OR don't want any outside eyes seeing any improvements/preps pre-emergency.
But having lived in a SEARS "Hillary" canvas tent for 2years as a kid*
I can say that the upkeep, and maintenance is not worth the storage capabilities.
For temporary shelter (6mo MAX) maybe, but not a permanent shelter.
Which is why the whole travel trailer, or shed/tiny house cheerleading thing.
even buying older RVs with bad drivetrains and parking them as shelters would be better than a tent.
This is all opinion of course,
At the same time I can't speak as to a Yurt, I've never seen one in person,
Let alone stayed in one, but they look WAY more sturdy/viable than a standard tent.
Pics of the two tents mentioned attached.
You could always make a tent more permeant .
https://youtu.be/gE_sMi3yUJo?si=OFvEmA-3hTZIXYU3
Been a while, but I just got one of these...
And the picture on the box/manual immediately conjured images of the tents from Left 4 Dead 2.
How hard could it be, realistically, to make a canvas cover for one of these, and turn it into a M.A.S.H. barracks tent?
I can't sew a straight line to save my hide,
but I bet if one could it would be fairly easy, maybe add a few structural reinforcements,
Wooden door frame, and a stove jack (mash tent again) a couple mesh sewn in windows
and I would think you'd be good to go shelter wise, At least for a few months.
J
Quote from: superduder on September 09, 2023, 04:56:33 PMI recently bought another property,
a little over a half acre of unincorporated/non zoned land (.66AC) for a secondary/possible income property.
I (using good old 3D home architect) laid out one .22 acre lot and did plans for one 10X20... Bungalow (?) cabin.
Just to see what kind of space I'm really dealing with,
Well Suffice it to say IF I wanted to do the traditional "Rack'em and Stack'em"
a.k.a. "Prison Cell but with more privacy" style of housing,
Not that I have that many people in my group (I don't even know 42 adults personally),
but it's nice to have room for company. Right...?
I could make do with housing on one lot and farming/animal husbandry on the second and third lots.
Each cabin would have it's own bathroom (standard toilet and 36"x36" shower),
kitchen (with RV 110/12v/propane fridge and propane RV cooktop), and small 8X16 storage cellar.
Two bunks and a "jack knife" fold out sofa for bedding
Each can (hypothetically of course) house 3 adults, there's no utilities at the location though
so water tanks, or a VERY deep well and gas/propane or diesel generator
and/or wind & solar aso would be a necessity it would be cozy, borderline crowded, but again Could be done.
What would the cost breakdown be in this?
Quote from: Moab on March 24, 2024, 05:32:09 PMQuote from: superduder on September 09, 2023, 04:56:33 PMI recently bought another property,
a little over a half acre of unincorporated/non zoned land (.66AC) for a secondary/possible income property.
I (using good old 3D home architect) laid out one .22 acre lot and did plans for one 10X20... Bungalow (?) cabin.
Just to see what kind of space I'm really dealing with,
Well Suffice it to say IF I wanted to do the traditional "Rack'em and Stack'em"
a.k.a. "Prison Cell but with more privacy" style of housing,
Not that I have that many people in my group (I don't even know 42 adults personally),
but it's nice to have room for company. Right...?
I could make do with housing on one lot and farming/animal husbandry on the second and third lots.
Each cabin would have it's own bathroom (standard toilet and 36"x36" shower),
kitchen (with RV 110/12v/propane fridge and propane RV cooktop), and small 8X16 storage cellar.
Two bunks and a "jack knife" fold out sofa for bedding
Each can (hypothetically of course) house 3 adults, there's no utilities at the location though
so water tanks, or a VERY deep well and gas/propane or diesel generator
and/or wind & solar aso would be a necessity it would be cozy, borderline crowded, but again Could be done.
What would the cost breakdown be in this?
The individual sheds/cabins in that post could be bought assembled, and delivered for (checked today)
$5000 Each.
That's unfinished, and I saw today there were within "driving distance" of the property (150mi)
several pop up "tent" trailers Or truck campers with all appliances, lighting, and water systems in tact
and working but bad canvas, body tub, Floor or bad roof for $FREE-$500 ea.
I'd go $6K-$8K each to be move in ready.. This is also No electrical power generation system,
or water tanks other than holding tanks from the trailers/campers,
And doing all the interior labor/installation yourself of course.
The IBC totes route for the water would run $300-$500 installed, and the solar... (don't shoot please)
HF 100W kit, with controller and wiring (beginner level kit but they do work)
and a single 100AH Walmart deep cycle battery (regular lead/acid is fine)
will run a laptop, 12v accessories/lighting from a camper well enough.
So...
$5000 base Shed (more $$$ = More finished shed)
$500 Camper
$400 IBC food grade tote water system
$500 solar/batt/inverter
-------------------------
@ $6000-$7500 each livable Estimated/YMMV of course,
I haven't checked if a shed/barn dealer would be inclined to give a discount for multiple buildings yet.
I really should, because IF I decided to go with the cabins idea, getting even 10% off each would mean a pretty good discount.
Whats the construction of these cabins like? 1x I would assume?
Quote from: Moab on March 24, 2024, 07:00:25 PMWhats the construction of these cabins like? 1x I would assume?
I don't follow, what does "1X" mean?
Quote from: superduder on March 24, 2024, 07:28:18 PMQuote from: Moab on March 24, 2024, 07:00:25 PMWhats the construction of these cabins like? 1x I would assume?
I don't follow, what does "1X" mean?
I'm thinking nominal lumber dimension. The implication being the overall construction would be less substantial than a conventional home. So instead of 2x4s, 2x6s, etc., it's probably 1" thick lumber: 1x1s, 1x4s, etc.
Quote from: majorhavoc on March 24, 2024, 07:56:25 PMQuote from: superduder on March 24, 2024, 07:28:18 PMQuote from: Moab on March 24, 2024, 07:00:25 PMWhats the construction of these cabins like? 1x I would assume?
I don't follow, what does "1X" mean?
I'm thinking nominal lumber dimension. The implication being the overall construction would be less substantial than a conventional home. So instead of 2x4s, 2x6s, etc., it's probably 1" thick lumber: 1x1s, 1x4s, etc.
Yes. Thats what I meant. My apologies.
They're through a Sheds USA affiliate, so they're built "to code" lumber wise, except the studs are 24in on center.
You can specify 16in for a little higher initial cost,Which is why I went higher on the estimate.
Not that 16in centers would necessarily increase the cost that much, but double pane/additional windows,
Standard house door instead of dual barn doors, etc probably would though.
The other things to think about also are cost of land before you can even plan your housing. Land prices have gone up more than the cost of the houses on them.
Then the rules and regulations around what you can and can't build if you are anywhere close to work. We moved into the house we are in in 2008 and are kind of trapped here because anything else is way more expensive now.
Quote from: eugenenine on March 25, 2024, 09:36:23 AMThe other things to think about also are cost of land before you can even plan your housing. Land prices have gone up more than the cost of the houses on them.
Then the rules and regulations around what you can and can't build if you are anywhere close to work. We moved into the house we are in in 2008 and are kind of trapped here because anything else is way more expensive now.
The "recent" .66ac total property ran me just over $1050 all in.
It's non zoned, but was supposed to be a subdivision back in the 1950's the farthest they got was grading/brush removal.
So now it's got tons of palo verde bushes, sagebrush, and feral hogs, but other than that nothing.
Nearest utility pole is 3/4 mile away, nearest neighbor/house/improved road is 1.25mi away.
Not sure how any of that would affect anyone's desire to buy, but it does affect the price.
J
Quote from: superduder on March 24, 2024, 06:41:58 PMQuote from: Moab on March 24, 2024, 05:32:09 PMQuote from: superduder on September 09, 2023, 04:56:33 PMI recently bought another property,
a little over a half acre of unincorporated/non zoned land (.66AC) for a secondary/possible income property.
I (using good old 3D home architect) laid out one .22 acre lot and did plans for one 10X20... Bungalow (?) cabin.
Just to see what kind of space I'm really dealing with,
Well Suffice it to say IF I wanted to do the traditional "Rack'em and Stack'em"
a.k.a. "Prison Cell but with more privacy" style of housing,
Not that I have that many people in my group (I don't even know 42 adults personally),
but it's nice to have room for company. Right...?
I could make do with housing on one lot and farming/animal husbandry on the second and third lots.
Each cabin would have it's own bathroom (standard toilet and 36"x36" shower),
kitchen (with RV 110/12v/propane fridge and propane RV cooktop), and small 8X16 storage cellar.
Two bunks and a "jack knife" fold out sofa for bedding
Each can (hypothetically of course) house 3 adults, there's no utilities at the location though
so water tanks, or a VERY deep well and gas/propane or diesel generator
and/or wind & solar aso would be a necessity it would be cozy, borderline crowded, but again Could be done.
What would the cost breakdown be in this?
The individual sheds/cabins in that post could be bought assembled, and delivered for (checked today)
$5000 Each.
That's unfinished, and I saw today there were within "driving distance" of the property (150mi)
several pop up "tent" trailers Or truck campers with all appliances, lighting, and water systems in tact
and working but bad canvas, body tub, Floor or bad roof for $FREE-$500 ea.
I'd go $6K-$8K each to be move in ready.. This is also No electrical power generation system,
or water tanks other than holding tanks from the trailers/campers,
And doing all the interior labor/installation yourself of course.
The IBC totes route for the water would run $300-$500 installed, and the solar... (don't shoot please)
HF 100W kit, with controller and wiring (beginner level kit but they do work)
and a single 100AH Walmart deep cycle battery (regular lead/acid is fine)
will run a laptop, 12v accessories/lighting from a camper well enough.
So...
$5000 base Shed (more $$$ = More finished shed)
$500 Camper
$400 IBC food grade tote water system
$500 solar/batt/inverter
-------------------------
@ $6000-$7500 each livable Estimated/YMMV of course,
I haven't checked if a shed/barn dealer would be inclined to give a discount for multiple buildings yet.
I really should, because IF I decided to go with the cabins idea, getting even 10% off each would mean a pretty good discount.
I had one that looked exactly like that and it came with the option of one or two lofts, as well.
Here I go playing "Thread Jesus" again,
But I just found one of these for sale locally.
8X8X14 truck Box (U-haul no cabover)
And had to get a newer version of 3d home architect to do a layout.
Doesn't seem like it would be very difficult to move, being as it's made to sit on a van cab/chassis.
seeing #vanlife videos of people converting 24ft boxes got me thinking and here we are.
The circle inside the square is a cabinet containing a cassette toilet, but they don't have an icon for that.
OR an icon for a single burner stove/hot plate, so the square bar sink is the GasOne dual fuel.
The "Cabinets" above the couch are a flip down bunk like in a 1960s canned ham camper.
No shower in the layout, but I'm sure something from a camper or a sink sprayer could be made to work.
Just another idea.
J
I think sketchup has icons for it.
You could try adding a small compartment fitting a shower cubicle and toilet. Make the shower ground-level and the side parts fold back towards the wall and you can get it even smaller. Basically just a large shower with a toilet inside.
If you add the insulation towards the outside you´d have a decent sized tiny room.
Screenshot 2025-02-14 083543.png
You could add the entrance towards where the kitchen sits if you want to keep the original layout, and add the kitchen on the partition towards the toilet.
I'm assuming you mean something like a rv setup as well?
Like the type in the 1st pic attached here.
I'm too claustrophobic to be going into a closet (28"x28") to bathe.
I've grabbed toilet/showers from pop-up campers for cabins before,
they're basically one step up from a cabinet-mode.
I've always kind of liked the murphy sink type from campers (2nd pic)
J
I mean a regular shower, just floor level with a tiled floor. I stayed in Korea for a time and had a bathroom there that was basically one giant shower room. The toilet and sink got wet when showering. On the other hand you could clean the entire room with the showerhead. It had an air conditioner build in and a rod at the ceiling where you could hang clothing to dry using the aircon. The entire room was only 2-3m².
Or you could add some side parts that fold back completely, like it is used in handicapped accessible bathrooms. This way you can place the toilet directly next to the shower stall or use the shower space as leg room for the lavatory. Generally you want 60cm in front of the toilet, the toilet itself is usually 60cm as well. At least in Europe.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.bdcc4fa4f07e35dfdda6897b47fc4d4a?rik=urKv25MO%2fySR0Q&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.glasprofi24.de%2fgallery%2fduschen-barrierefreie-dusche%2flarge%2fglasdusche-mit-breitem-einstieg.jpg&ehk=QLo7pO0y97%2bJ3mxHxxkcqg81cXFS9NHrdgpC5ogfD7o%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
Regular shower stalls start at 80x80, modern ones 90x90, although we plan most houses with at least one side 1-1,2m. The one used in the plan I send is 120x80cm.
I do like the murphy sink. It´s adorable.