Missing submersible disappears in vicinity of Titanic shipwreck (https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/06/19/us/titanic-missing-sub-tourist-tour?unlocked_article_code=Rb8y1z6PlQE6Su0MSH7KcsZwXA6rmCljiqYCrWOGkM7FkmDIoMvLVf2C57brwYD_g7v1R0xyXZvO3pUhtzptfzMZzJEEAly1Db9xtlIhPS8WXgsnoP7YMMbIOKBOVF8ymPBM8Qry9UDtdkEOkNYKjWLJ5INKGQWjDF4FKIB1Bqm7M0zSrnBZejQW1YcAsfhtTtSExXUoYBMm1I5IMy8_yD-5FQoSZMTWxINyVYx0-muA59KBkI1rPHToFdOCsin-Ky-urgceC-gqUhDarw-CkbqYKr0188P1TcGLTNsGvPg5a2Sj7VnQsBEOzTRD8HIR4qybpN0iGc3DjN0og05eAY1e179ZoEzXUipr_qgG&smid=url-share)
I'll admit it - this developing story fascinates me.
Quote from: NYTIMESThe chief executive of OceanGate, which was founded in 2009, has compared its project to the burgeoning space tourism industry, and the company has offered tours of the Titanic in which guests paid $250,000 to travel to the wreckage on the seabed, more than two miles below the ocean's surface.
Was this the next stop on this tourist's bucket list?
https://www.tiktok.com/@cherlin95/video/7241971653163470107
Quote from: MacWa77ace on June 19, 2023, 12:04:39 PMQuote from: NYTIMESThe chief executive of OceanGate, which was founded in 2009, has compared its project to the burgeoning space tourism industry, and the company has offered tours of the Titanic in which guests paid $250,000 to travel to the wreckage on the seabed, more than two miles below the ocean's surface.
With no deep ocean rescue capabilities should something go wrong, apparently.
Quote from: Anianna on June 19, 2023, 08:48:41 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on June 19, 2023, 12:04:39 PMQuote from: NYTIMESThe chief executive of OceanGate, which was founded in 2009, has compared its project to the burgeoning space tourism industry, and the company has offered tours of the Titanic in which guests paid $250,000 to travel to the wreckage on the seabed, more than two miles below the ocean's surface.
With no deep ocean rescue capabilities should something go wrong, apparently.
Rescue attempt is underway. It will be very costly.
I'm normally not a pessimist, but the families should prepare themselves for bad news.
Submersibles like this usually have positive buoyancy (i.e. they float) and have to use weights in order to descend. To come back up, all they have to do is release the weights. That's the sort of system that likely has redundant options to release the weights, including manual. When the surface lost comms with the submersible, that could've been any number of technical issues, but they would still have been able to release the weights and come back up, even if there had been a significant power issue (and a loss of communications / power would almost certainly count as an emergency which would cause them to scrub the dive).
Right from the start I figured that this is probably a hull failure of some type and that the likelihood of survival is extremely low. I don't know what the design of this submersible is like, but many of them have several spheres welded together, with one for the people and another one or more for the mechanicals. If there was a leak in the mechanical section, it could make it too heavy to return to the surface, even if the weights were dropped. That's the only scenario that I see where they might possibly be alive right now.
But even if that's the case I doubt that they'll be able to be rescued due to the depth, which would mean a cold, dark death from suffocation/freezing. Robert Ballard (the guy who found the Titanic) had a few close calls when diving as well, and completely swore off of one type of design (I believe the bathyscape submersible type) after several serious issues with them when diving. At those depths, very small things become enormous problems really quickly. It's not a forgiving environment.
An example of the lazy, uninformed garbage that passes as factual reporting, even in established news media like The New York Times:
QuoteThe push to build human-operated submersibles began in the 1950s, during the space race. The first vehicles were tested in the 1960s at a maximum depth of 70 feet, according to the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute in Massachusetts.
I get it that whatever source they were talking to at Woods Hole was probably referring to
deep sea submersibles, but come on, man - that's kind of an important distinction. This is how widespread misconceptions start. Next thing you know, people will be claiming the U-boat menace of WW2 was just a hoax because manned submersibles weren't even invented until the 1950s.
The BBC had an article that gives some info about this submersible. It's not certified by any organization (it's classified as experimental) and all participants have to sign a waiver acknowledging that it's dangerous and that they may die. It's basically a tube with a carpeted floor that you sit on (no seats) and is piloted using a PlayStation controller. Navigation is done via text messages back up to the surface ship, who gives them directions on which way to go (there's no onboard navigation system). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217
Um, no thanks...
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 20, 2023, 10:44:31 AMAn example of the lazy, uninformed garbage that passes as factual reporting, even in established news media like The New York Times:
QuoteThe push to build human-operated submersibles began in the 1950s, during the space race. The first vehicles were tested in the 1960s at a maximum depth of 70 feet, according to the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute in Massachusetts.
I get it that whatever source they were talking to at Woods Hole was probably referring to deep sea submersibles, but come on, man - that's kind of an important distinction. This is how widespread misconceptions start. Next thing you know, people will be claiming the U-boat menace of WW2 was just a hoax because manned submersibles weren't even invented until the 1950s.
yeah, probably leaving out a lot of words like 'govt funded research' when referring to the 'push'. Where there may not have been any real govt. monetary interest before. But 70 ft? is that a typo?
I like words like bathysphere 1930's and 3000 ft. or Bathyscaphe 1940's and 4600 ft. both manned submersibles.
Quoteclassified as a submersible, not a submarine, because it does not function as an autonomous craft, instead relying on a support platform to deploy and return.
definitely a difference in type of apparatus.
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2020/10/16/more-than-just-the-hunley-the-other-submarines-of-the-u-s-civil-war-2/
(https://i0.wp.com/militaryhistorynow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Sub.jpg?w=912&ssl=1)
And diving bells are mentioned and in use as early as the 4th century BC. Another type of submersible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_bell#History
Here's one from the future, made from jelly fish skins and lawn chairs. à la Waterworld.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WEfTkvbEpK4/UCUsr3t3FjI/AAAAAAAAPoo/utiasxyzYtA/s1600/waterworld4.jpg)
Idiocracy here we come. :smiley_nah:
Quote from: EBuff75 on June 20, 2023, 11:07:42 AMThe BBC had an article that gives some info about this submersible. It's not certified by any organization (it's classified as experimental) and all participants have to sign a waiver acknowledging that it's dangerous and that they may die. It's basically a tube with a carpeted floor that you sit on (no seats) and is piloted using a PlayStation controller. Navigation is done via text messages back up to the surface ship, who gives them directions on which way to go (there's no onboard navigation system). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217
Um, no thanks...
Why not? What could go wrong?
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 20, 2023, 11:48:10 AMQuote from: EBuff75 on June 20, 2023, 11:07:42 AMThe BBC had an article that gives some info about this submersible. It's not certified by any organization (it's classified as experimental) and all participants have to sign a waiver acknowledging that it's dangerous and that they may die. It's basically a tube with a carpeted floor that you sit on (no seats) and is piloted using a PlayStation controller. Navigation is done via text messages back up to the surface ship, who gives them directions on which way to go (there's no onboard navigation system). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217
Um, no thanks...
Why not? What could go wrong?
Could run into Bowser.
Quote from: NT2C on June 20, 2023, 11:53:57 AMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 20, 2023, 11:48:10 AMQuote from: EBuff75 on June 20, 2023, 11:07:42 AMThe BBC had an article that gives some info about this submersible. It's not certified by any organization (it's classified as experimental) and all participants have to sign a waiver acknowledging that it's dangerous and that they may die. It's basically a tube with a carpeted floor that you sit on (no seats) and is piloted using a PlayStation controller. Navigation is done via text messages back up to the surface ship, who gives them directions on which way to go (there's no onboard navigation system). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217
Um, no thanks...
Why not? What could go wrong?
Could run into Bowser.
Pilot: Uh-oh
Nervous passengers: What's wrong?
Pilot: Uh, anyone got any fresh AA batteries?...
Note to self: remove "Decend to crushing depth of 2.5 miles under the sea in an unregistered, uncertified experimental vessel run by for-profit "research" organization" from bucket list.
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 20, 2023, 12:10:29 PMNote to self: remove "Decend to crushing depth of 2.5 miles under the sea in an unregistered, uncertified experimental vessel run by for-profit "research" organization" from bucket list.
I'm keeping it there, but saving it for last.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 20, 2023, 12:13:43 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on June 20, 2023, 12:10:29 PMNote to self: remove "Decend to crushing depth of 2.5 miles under the sea in an unregistered, uncertified experimental vessel run by for-profit "research" organization" from bucket list.
I'm keeping it there, but saving it for last.
When you return from Mars?
I really hate to say this, but I'm getting a strong feeling that this will end up being more of a body recovery mission than a rescue mission.
Reading between the lines, sounds like the only reasonable hope for a successful rescue is if the Titan submersible somehow ascended to the surface and hasn't been located yet.
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 20, 2023, 12:10:29 PMNote to self: remove "Decend to crushing depth of 2.5 miles under the sea in an unregistered, uncertified experimental vessel run by for-profit "research" organization" from bucket list.
Agreed... I mean what could possibly go wrong with that?
Just think we both saved ourselves $250,000 :)
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 19, 2023, 09:50:04 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 19, 2023, 08:48:41 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on June 19, 2023, 12:04:39 PMQuote from: NYTIMESThe chief executive of OceanGate, which was founded in 2009, has compared its project to the burgeoning space tourism industry, and the company has offered tours of the Titanic in which guests paid $250,000 to travel to the wreckage on the seabed, more than two miles below the ocean's surface.
With no deep ocean rescue capabilities should something go wrong, apparently.
Rescue attempt is underway. It will be very costly.
Yea, but I'm of the opinion that if the company wants to offer submersible tourism, they should have the capability to retrieve their own vehicle. I hope the bill for recovery is sent to the company.
Quote from: Anianna on June 20, 2023, 05:14:08 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 19, 2023, 09:50:04 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 19, 2023, 08:48:41 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on June 19, 2023, 12:04:39 PMQuote from: NYTIMESThe chief executive of OceanGate, which was founded in 2009, has compared its project to the burgeoning space tourism industry, and the company has offered tours of the Titanic in which guests paid $250,000 to travel to the wreckage on the seabed, more than two miles below the ocean's surface.
With no deep ocean rescue capabilities should something go wrong, apparently.
Rescue attempt is underway. It will be very costly.
Yea, but I'm of the opinion that if the company wants to offer submersible tourism, they should have the capability to retrieve their own vehicle. I hope the bill for recovery is sent to the company.
There's probably going to be a lot more sent to the company than just a bill for recovery.
I'm thinking that despite the waivers, this company is likely looking at some lawsuits from the families of the folks in the missing sub.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on June 20, 2023, 05:41:15 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 20, 2023, 05:14:08 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 19, 2023, 09:50:04 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 19, 2023, 08:48:41 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on June 19, 2023, 12:04:39 PMQuote from: NYTIMESThe chief executive of OceanGate, which was founded in 2009, has compared its project to the burgeoning space tourism industry, and the company has offered tours of the Titanic in which guests paid $250,000 to travel to the wreckage on the seabed, more than two miles below the ocean's surface.
With no deep ocean rescue capabilities should something go wrong, apparently.
Rescue attempt is underway. It will be very costly.
Yea, but I'm of the opinion that if the company wants to offer submersible tourism, they should have the capability to retrieve their own vehicle. I hope the bill for recovery is sent to the company.
There's probably going to be a lot more sent to the company than just a bill for recovery.
I'm thinking that despite the waivers, this company is likely looking at some lawsuits from the families of the folks in the missing sub.
Not only that, but the pilot of the submersible was their CEO. I have serious doubts about the ability of the company to survive this. I'd guess that they'll simply fold up and go out of existence.
Quote from: Anianna on June 20, 2023, 05:14:08 PMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 19, 2023, 09:50:04 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 19, 2023, 08:48:41 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on June 19, 2023, 12:04:39 PMQuote from: NYTIMESThe chief executive of OceanGate, which was founded in 2009, has compared its project to the burgeoning space tourism industry, and the company has offered tours of the Titanic in which guests paid $250,000 to travel to the wreckage on the seabed, more than two miles below the ocean's surface.
With no deep ocean rescue capabilities should something go wrong, apparently.
Rescue attempt is underway. It will be very costly.
Yea, but I'm of the opinion that if the company wants to offer submersible tourism, they should have the capability to retrieve their own vehicle. I hope the bill for recovery is sent to the company.
Considering the company CEO is onboard...
They going close hold on the names, however at least one has been identified as a high stakes adventure tourist. Likely they all were.
They've all been identified, just not officially by the authorities: https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/20/world/hamish-harding-titanic-tourist-sub-intl/index.html
Yes killing customers and the CEO tends to make things difficult for a company o survive.
BTW the company likely does not have much insurance or assets. As a matter of fact i doubt the liability insurance market would cover a deep dive in an unidentified craft. As for assets the boat bringing them out is a chartered anchor handler and the key asset of the company is likely lost. Any contracts that they have are now worthless since they have no backup vessel.
Any lawsuits are likely to recover very little. Much like the Titanic passengers got basically nothing so these folks are not likely to get much.
Titan sub: What happens next after sounds detected in search (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65972610?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA#:~:text=Titan%20sub%3A%20What%20happens%20next%20after%20sounds%20detected%20in%20search)
When I first heard this I thought of a random something hitting something. But...
Quote"If there was a 30-minute interval, it's very unlikely to be anything but human related," he told the BBC.
...
But Mr Owen says the noises "smack of advice" [~ this is how to signal in this situation] coming from the fifth man on board - 77-year-old Paul-Henry Nargeolet, a former French navy diver and renowned explorer.
"He would know the protocol for trying to alert searching forces... on the hour and the half hour you bang like hell for three minutes," Mr Owen said.
(https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/NYPICHPDPICT000012985434-2.jpg?resize=1024,999&quality=75&strip=all)
https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakistan/pakistani-billionaire-and-his-son-among-five-aboard-missing-titanic-submarine-1.96516384
QuoteUK-based Pakistani billionaire Shahzada Dawood, 48 and his son Suleman Dawood, 19, are among the five passengers onboard 'Titanic' submarine that has gone missing while exploring the wreckage of the Titanic in the North Atlantic Ocean.
Shahzada and Suleman were on board the tiny underwater craft taking paying tourists to view the wreck 12,500ft underwater when they stopped communicating in the Atlantic Ocean, 640km off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada.
Reported to be a close personal friend of Charles III.
Also words of wisdom from the CEO. Can't verify authenticity; but it will likely come up at the civil trial if true.
https://9gag.com/tag/submarine
Some remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) capable of reaching the depth that the Titan is presumed to be are now arriving on the scene. But none are capable of lifting the Titan's 20K lb weight. Larger, more capable deep diving submersibles and their support ships all appear to be too far away to reach the site in time.
If the crew are indeed still alive and disabled on the ocean floor, wouldn't the most likely rescue scenario be one of the on-site ROVs attaching a cable to the stricken vessel and winching it to the surface?
Yet I can't find a single news source reporting whether or not any of the surface assets are equipped with a 2.5 mile long cable that can lift 10 tons.
It's maddening to follow a developing news story and none of the journalists seem to be asking what I think are blindingly obvious questions.
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 12:45:56 PMSome remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) capable of reaching the depth that the Titan is presumed to be are now arriving on the scene. But none are capable of lifting the Titan's 20K lb weight. Larger, more capable deep diving submersibles and their support ships all appear to be too far away to reach the site in time.
If the crew are indeed still alive and disabled on the ocean floor, wouldn't the most likely rescue scenario be one of the on-site ROVs attaching a cable to the stricken vessel and winching it to the surface?
Yet I can't find a single news source reporting whether or not any of the surface assets are equipped with a 2.5 mile long cable that can lift 10 tons.
It's maddening to follow a developing news story and none of the journalists seem to be asking what I think are blindingly obvious questions.
That is because you won't like the answer. In this era of official censorship by government law enforcement agencies, bad news about the government is pushed to the bottom of the pile.
Near as I can tell they identified what they needed early on.
https://news.usni.org/2023/06/20/navy-transcom-supporting-search-for-submersible-missing-after-dive-to-titanic-wreck
However there was a 1.5 day delay on sending the equipment due to the Juneteenth Holiday and everyone being off.
https://www.insider.com/titanic-submersible-rescue-equipment-delayed-by-us-officials-advisor-2023-6
QuoteDavid Concannon, an advisor to OceanGate, told NewsNation on Monday that vital search-and-rescue equipment was sitting on a plane on the island of Guernsey because US officials hadn't signed off on the paperwork.
Quote"U. S. Transportation Command is supporting the search effort with (3) C-17 aircraft that are transporting commercial, rescue-related cargo and equipment from Buffalo, NY to St Johns, Newfoundland. As of 4:30 pm eastern time today, all three aircraft have departed Buffalo, and the last aircraft is scheduled to land at St. John shortly."
So a day and half later it was on it's way. It won't get there in time, but very likely it would never have mattered.
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 12:45:56 PMSome remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) capable of reaching the depth that the Titan is presumed to be are now arriving on the scene. But none are capable of lifting the Titan's 20K lb weight. Larger, more capable deep diving submersibles and their support ships all appear to be too far away to reach the site in time.
If the crew are indeed still alive and disabled on the ocean floor, wouldn't the most likely rescue scenario be one of the on-site ROVs attaching a cable to the stricken vessel and winching it to the surface?
Yet I can't find a single news source reporting whether or not any of the surface assets are equipped with a 2.5 mile long cable that can lift 10 tons.
It's maddening to follow a developing news story and none of the journalists seem to be asking what I think are blindingly obvious questions.
Tethered ROV's have visited Titanic but I can't remember if they were tethered to untethered submercibles. But they should have started moving needed rescue equipment into the area, especially if the transit time was a within the expected oxygen supply. i.e. the 2.5 mile spool of lifting cable.
It was reported by the company that it has a emergency surfacing procedure to automatically surface in the event of a failure. I was thinking it surfaced and since it only has a 1 ft radar signature and the waves are two feet high they'd have to visually find it.
I thought that until the reported 'signals' were heard. Now I think its trapped somehow.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on June 21, 2023, 02:13:53 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 12:45:56 PMSome remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) capable of reaching the depth that the Titan is presumed to be are now arriving on the scene. But none are capable of lifting the Titan's 20K lb weight. Larger, more capable deep diving submersibles and their support ships all appear to be too far away to reach the site in time.
If the crew are indeed still alive and disabled on the ocean floor, wouldn't the most likely rescue scenario be one of the on-site ROVs attaching a cable to the stricken vessel and winching it to the surface?
Yet I can't find a single news source reporting whether or not any of the surface assets are equipped with a 2.5 mile long cable that can lift 10 tons.
It's maddening to follow a developing news story and none of the journalists seem to be asking what I think are blindingly obvious questions.
Tethered ROV's have visited Titanic but I can't remember if they were tethered to untethered submercibles. But they should have started moving needed rescue equipment into the area, especially if the transit time was a within the expected oxygen supply. i.e. the 2.5 mile spool of lifting cable.
It was reported by the company that it has a emergency surfacing procedure to automatically surface in the event of a failure. I was thinking it surfaced and since it only has a 1 ft radar signature and the waves are two feet high they'd have to visually find it.
I thought that until the reported 'signals' were heard. Now I think its trapped somehow.
Not-so-fun fact: even if it is bobbing on the surface, it cannot be opened by the crew. Apparently due to their pressure resistant design, all deep water submersibles require outside assistance to open the hatch.
So the 96 hour air supply is still a critical factor whether it's on the surface, intact on the ocean floor or anywhere in between. Imagine making it all the way back to the surface only to suffocate while open air is visible through the viewing port, all because rescuers couldn't get to you in time. :eek1:
Also, mea culpa: I revealed my ignorance earlier in this thread criticizing a reporter who overlooked the submarine's 150 year history when they reported that manned submersibles were only developed in the 1950s.
Apparently submersibles are a distinct breed of underwater craft that cannot leave from/return to port unaided. Unlike a true submarine, submersibles require a mother ship to operate.
For what it's worth I honestly thought the Civil War era Hunley had to be towed near it's target and had very limited self mobility, but I am unable to confirm that.
I'll leave it to others to debate what bathyscapes and bathyspheres are if not submersibles ...
The Hunley was man powered with a pedals that operated a propeller. It was towed close to the target and then the man power took over.
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 12:45:56 PMSome remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) capable of reaching the depth that the Titan is presumed to be are now arriving on the scene. But none are capable of lifting the Titan's 20K lb weight. Larger, more capable deep diving submersibles and their support ships all appear to be too far away to reach the site in time.
If the crew are indeed still alive and disabled on the ocean floor, wouldn't the most likely rescue scenario be one of the on-site ROVs attaching a cable to the stricken vessel and winching it to the surface?
No, you don't do an underwater lift like that with cables, you do it with flotation bags and compressed air tanks. Cables to do that would have to be able to lift 3x the weight of the submersible to have a safe working load limit, plus the weight of the cable itself. Eventually, you reach a point where the cable weight keeps exceeding its SWLL for that length.
It doesn't matter anyway as the submersible was built with positive buoyancy and used external weights to submerge. The most likely scenario I can come up with is someone forgot to pull the safety pins and they got down there only to find they couldn't jettison the weights and were stuck.
I also think, somewhere right now, some poor SOB is having to make the decision regarding how truthful to be with the media and next of kin regarding what is actually discovered. Do you admit you found the submersible, with the crew still alive, but were unable to do anything to help, or do you announce that you regretfully were unable to locate the craft before time ran out? Maybe even arrange a little accident after the crew is gone that just leaves crushed wreckage for someone to find later. "It must have happened very quickly; they didn't suffer."
QuoteIt doesn't matter anyway as the submersible was built with positive buoyancy and used external weights to to submerge. The most likely scenario I can come up with is someone forgot to pull the safety pins and they got down there only to find they couldn't jettison the weights and were stuck.
They lost contact an hour and 45 minutes into the mission before they reached bottom. Most likely it was either hull failure or multiple system failures.
Diving bells were used as early as 400 bc were also 'submersibles', maybe the nomenclature 'submersible' is only 50 years old. Reporter is definitely mis informing their readers with their expert opinion.
Quote from: wikiHistory
The diving bell is one of the earliest types of equipment for underwater work and exploration. Its use was first described by Aristotle in the 4th century BC: "they enable the divers to respire equally well by letting down a cauldron, for this does not fill with water, but retains the air, for it is forced straight down into the water." Recurring legends about Alexander the Great (including some versions of the Alexander Romance) tell he explored the sea in some closed vessel, lowered from his ships
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 02:29:27 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on June 21, 2023, 02:13:53 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 12:45:56 PMSome remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) capable of reaching the depth that the Titan is presumed to be are now arriving on the scene. But none are capable of lifting the Titan's 20K lb weight. Larger, more capable deep diving submersibles and their support ships all appear to be too far away to reach the site in time.
If the crew are indeed still alive and disabled on the ocean floor, wouldn't the most likely rescue scenario be one of the on-site ROVs attaching a cable to the stricken vessel and winching it to the surface?
Yet I can't find a single news source reporting whether or not any of the surface assets are equipped with a 2.5 mile long cable that can lift 10 tons.
It's maddening to follow a developing news story and none of the journalists seem to be asking what I think are blindingly obvious questions.
Tethered ROV's have visited Titanic but I can't remember if they were tethered to untethered submercibles. But they should have started moving needed rescue equipment into the area, especially if the transit time was a within the expected oxygen supply. i.e. the 2.5 mile spool of lifting cable.
It was reported by the company that it has a emergency surfacing procedure to automatically surface in the event of a failure. I was thinking it surfaced and since it only has a 1 ft radar signature and the waves are two feet high they'd have to visually find it.
I thought that until the reported 'signals' were heard. Now I think its trapped somehow.
Not-so-fun fact: even if it is bobbing on the surface, it cannot be opened by the crew. Apparently due to their pressure resistant design, all deep water submersibles require outside assistance to open the hatch.
So the 96 hour air supply is still a critical factor whether it's on the surface, intact on the ocean floor or anywhere in between. Imagine making it all the way back to the surface only to suffocate while open air is visible through the viewing port, all because rescuers couldn't get to you in time. :eek1:
So, what was their plan if it had gone well then? There had to be a surface support craft with a crew to recover and open it either way. I'm also inclined to believe it never surfaced because it
had to be equipped with signaling gear for use on the surface and no such signal has been heard. Only a freaking lunatic would have designed such a craft with no EPIRB (or two) and no flares/dye markers that could be released from inside the craft.
Quote from: NT2C on June 21, 2023, 02:49:47 PMSo, what was their plan if it had gone well then? There had to be a surface support craft with a crew to recover and open it either way. I'm also inclined to believe it never surfaced because it had to be equipped with signaling gear for use on the surface and no such signal has been heard. Only a freaking lunatic would have designed such a craft with no EPIRB (or two) and no flares/dye markers that could be released from inside the craft.
their signaling gear was probably some sort of radio. If there was a power failure due to bus connections battery power would not supply a radio. It could have also knocked off its antenna. But the report of the 'banging' coming from under water sort of rules out its on the surface.
I'd think manually triggered explosive bolts and some sort of manually triggered external flare device would be safety equipment in case of power failure when surfaced. Plus some dye. EPRB. All the standard locator stuff but manually triggered from the inside. But with the low profile and high seas, forcing open the hatch would certainly flood the compartment. Then the explorers would be facing the same icy seas as the passengers of the Titanic did 111 years ago.
Well, I suspect this is one of those situations where the would-be rescuers have to pursue cling to increasingly unlikely scenarios. Like: the Titan did somehow manage to surface, and either it's locator beacon somehow did fail or the designers really were criminally stupid and didn't equip their DIY, deep-diving, Playstation-controlled death trap with such emergency gear.
Because, if we're being honest here (and I would love to be proven wrong) that's pretty much the only scenario that could have a happy ending.
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 03:10:24 PMWell, I suspect this is one of those situations where the would-be rescuers have to pursue cling to increasingly unlikely scenarios. Like: the Titan did somehow manage to surface, and either it's locator beacon somehow did fail or the designers really were criminally stupid and didn't equip their DIY, deep-diving, Playstation-controlled death trap with such emergency gear.
Because, if we're being honest here (and I would love to be proven wrong) that's pretty much the only scenario that could have a happy ending.
Given the half-assed design of the Titan, I'm thinking that last part is probably more likely.
Seems to me the CEO figured any idiot could design a submersible and pilot it, decided to cut costs in as many ways as he possibly could and banked on Titanic fans forking over $250k a pop to look at the wreck.
Either he was blissfully unaware of the amount of engineering that goes into designing a craft capable of and the training that's required to make deep ocean dives or he's one of those arrogantly ignorant people who only sees dollar signs and ignored all of the required safety procedures and work needed to be done.
ETA: On the optimistic hand, I'm trying to stay hopeful that the folks on the Titan will be found safe, but on the other pessimistic hand, I'm thinking this will end up less a rescue mission and more closer to a recovery effort.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 21, 2023, 02:46:40 PMQuoteIt doesn't matter anyway as the submersible was built with positive buoyancy and used external weights to to submerge. The most likely scenario I can come up with is someone forgot to pull the safety pins and they got down there only to find they couldn't jettison the weights and were stuck.
They lost contact an hour and 45 minutes into the mission before they reached bottom. Most likely it was either hull failure or multiple system failures.
Well, CBS news reporter David Pogue shared an account of how OceanGate lost contact with the Titan for 5 hours on an earlier dive to the wreckage site. (And OceanGate killed their internet link during that time so Pogue couldn't tweet about it)
Now, supposedly the protocol is to stop the descent until comms are restored. But on this last dive (and rest assured whatever the outcome, Titan will NEVER dive again), you have 4 high powered, paying customers with extremely forceful personalities pressuring the pilot (who happens to be the company founder and likely the only person who might feel empowered to override protocol) to continue the dive, comms be damned.
Just saying NT2C'S nightmare scenario could play out. The ballast needs to stay attached all the way the bottom. If there were locking pins that hadn't been removed as they were supposed to be, that only would have been apparent when they were ready to ascend to the surface.
If indeed that's how the ballast system is supposed to work, there's one guy aboard the mother ship right now thinking 1 of 2 things:
1) I
did remove the locking pins, didn't I? Or,
2) I hope they
never find the Titan, because I totally forgot to remove the locking pins.
Also, I just remembered there was a book written in 1898 by Morgan Robertson called "Futility" and in it, a ship called the "Titan" went down in almost the exact same way as the Titanic did.
Now, it's a bit of an odd coincidence that the name of the missing submersible and the doomed fictional ship share the same name and both are connected to the Titanic tragedy.
ETA: Not sure if that's coincidental or it was an intentional thing done by OceanGate as a sort of nod to a bit of Titanic lore. Though I'm not sure just how many people have even heard of that little bit of lore.
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on June 21, 2023, 03:45:05 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on June 21, 2023, 03:10:24 PMWell, I suspect this is one of those situations where the would-be rescuers have to pursue cling to increasingly unlikely scenarios. Like: the Titan did somehow manage to surface, and either it's locator beacon somehow did fail or the designers really were criminally stupid and didn't equip their DIY, deep-diving, Playstation-controlled death trap with such emergency gear.
Because, if we're being honest here (and I would love to be proven wrong) that's pretty much the only scenario that could have a happy ending.
Given the half-assed design of the Titan, I'm thinking that last part is probably more likely.
Seems to me the CEO figured any idiot could design a submersible and pilot it, decided to cut costs in as many ways as he possibly could and banked on Titanic fans forking over $250k a pop to look at the wreck.
Either he was blissfully unaware of the amount of engineering that goes into designing a craft capable of and the training that's required to make deep ocean dives or he's one of those arrogantly ignorant people who only sees dollar signs and ignored all of the required safety procedures and work needed to be done.
ETA: On the optimistic hand, I'm trying to stay hopeful that the folks on the Titan will be found safe, but on the other pessimistic hand, I'm thinking this will end up less a rescue mission and more closer to a recovery effort.
Don't forget the part where they're literally sealed inside, with no way to open the hatch on their own, which could still mean suffocation, even if they're on the surface:
QuoteThe Titan has built-in safety systems that help it rise to the surface in case of emergency including sandbags and lead pipes that can be released, as well as an inflatable balloon. The system was designed to work even if everyone on board is unconscious.
That would be the best case scenario, but even then there would not necessarily be any survivors, said Lawrence Brennan, a professor at Fordham University's School of Law.
The Titan's hatch cannot be unlocked from the inside, "so they will have to open the hatch and the bolts from the outside and rescue the people in there.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/outlook-bleak-passengers-titan-despite-massive-rescue-effort-100284298
The more I learn about this thing, the nuttier the design gets...
Air is running out this morning. So sadly it appears there will be no survivors, unless somebody went full Vertical Limit. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the last man standing in that scenario.
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 22, 2023, 08:07:17 AMAir is running out this morning. So sadly it appears there will be no survivors, unless somebody went full Vertical Limit. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the last man standing in that scenario.
From the very start of this debacle. I've believed they were already dead. I think that sub was crushed like a beer can at a frat party right after their last message. I think the banging is just something banging on the Titanic wreck itself. This is what happens when lack of common sense and a large billfold meet
Quote from: flybynight on June 22, 2023, 09:11:46 AMQuote from: Uomo Senza Nome on June 22, 2023, 08:07:17 AMAir is running out this morning. So sadly it appears there will be no survivors, unless somebody went full Vertical Limit. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the last man standing in that scenario.
From the very start of this debacle. I've believed they were already dead. I think that sub was crushed like a beer can at a frat party right after their last message. I think the banging is just something banging on the Titanic wreck itself. This is what happens when lack of common sense and a large billfold meet
Probably. The thing about the banging was; it wasn't coming from the wreck and allegedly was going on every 30 minutes. But I agree, the submersible likely had hull failure on the way down.
https://www.news10.com/news/national/rescuers-make-last-desperate-push-as-final-hours-of-oxygen-on-missing-titanic-submersible-tick-down/
QuoteThe U.S. Coast Guard says debris field has been found near the Titanic during search for submersible
That isn't a good sign.
The debris has been identified as the equipment portion of the Titan submersible's hull. But not the pressure vessel the passengers occupy.
I took that to offer a slim ray of hope but OceanGate just released a statement announcing that all crew are likely dead. The US Coast Guard is holding a press conference right now.
Three billionaires killed in a single incident has to be some kind of macabre record.
USCG says size of the debris field is consistent with a "catastrophic implosion" of the crew compartment. I hope it was very quick, as in instantaneous. One moment they were there, gazing in wonderment at a fantastical oceanscape, the very next they were in the hereafter, whatever that entails.
I hope they weren't sitting on the bottom, their craft immobilized, as the cumulative stress on the hull slowly built toward that sudden, catastrophic failure.
People die every day, in countless and varied ways. It's weird how it feels so different when it happens in a uniquely spectacular fashion, the details revealed piecemeal as the whole world watches.
Life is just odd.
U.S. Coast Guard Rear Adm. John Mauger announced at a press conference that five major pieces of debris had been found 1,600 feet from the site of the Titanic Thursday morning on the sea floor, a finding "consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber." Mauger said they then notified the families and offered their condolences.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/titanic-missing-submersible-search-passengers-believed-dead-titan-recovery-190229608.html
Quote from: NT2C on June 21, 2023, 02:41:25 PMI also think, somewhere right now, some poor SOB is having to make the decision regarding how truthful to be with the media and next of kin regarding what is actually discovered. Do you admit you found the submersible, with the crew still alive, but were unable to do anything to help, or do you announce that you regretfully were unable to locate the craft before time ran out? Maybe even arrange a little accident after the crew is gone that just leaves crushed wreckage for someone to find later. "It must have happened very quickly; they didn't suffer."
Yeah, there's times I wish I didn't actually think some of the stuff that pops in my head.
Quote from: NT2C on June 22, 2023, 04:37:38 PMQuote from: NT2C on June 21, 2023, 02:41:25 PMI also think, somewhere right now, some poor SOB is having to make the decision regarding how truthful to be with the media and next of kin regarding what is actually discovered. Do you admit you found the submersible, with the crew still alive, but were unable to do anything to help, or do you announce that you regretfully were unable to locate the craft before time ran out? Maybe even arrange a little accident after the crew is gone that just leaves crushed wreckage for someone to find later. "It must have happened very quickly; they didn't suffer."
Yeah, there's times I wish I didn't actually think some of the stuff that pops in my head.
If it is any consolation the hull was fabricated from carbon fiber. It very likely it was compromised and delmainiated due previous dives and was on borrowed time. This is the most plausible explanation. When the hull failed the pressure would have killed everyone instantly.
Josh Gates, the host of the show Expedition Unknown went down in the Titan when it was being tested, as they were considering an episode where he and a camera operator would go down to the Titanic wreck site for the show. Ultimately, they decided against it, partly due to feeling that the Titan wasn't ready for prime time yet (multiple issues during the test dive along with concerns about the support vessel and ability of the company to function on a specific timeframe which would be required for shooting an episode for television).
In his interview with Anderson Cooper, Josh mentions that the effects of fatigue on the carbon fiber hull are unknown and how their design (the carbon fiber cylinder with hemispheric end caps) is a departure from every other deep-dive submersible, which all use titanium spheres. He does talk about the safety systems and how there were multiple ways to initiate an emergency rise to the surface.
His interview starts around minute 19: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/anderson-cooper-360/episodes/3ce90482-0f27-4e82-94a8-b029002a4687
Looks like he was right to opt out of filming an episode aboard. Of course, since this was a few years ago, they might've been able to work out the timing and gone down before this and been fine. But given the company's (by the way, does anyone else keep thinking of 'Heaven's Gate' every time they hear the 'OceanGate' name?) history of scheduling problems, they might still be waiting for a timeslot...
I'd say that Josh Gates and the production crew dodged a bullet there by ultimately deciding not to go through with a full dive for the show.
Apparently, the young man aboard had said he was afraid and didn't want to go but was compelled to go as a bonding trip with his father. I wish they hadn't taken him.
Quote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:11:51 PMApparently, the young man aboard had said he was afraid and didn't want to go but was compelled to go as a bonding trip with his father. I wish they hadn't taken him.
No, I'm not going to say it... :-X
Quote from: NT2C on June 22, 2023, 10:30:35 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:11:51 PMApparently, the young man aboard had said he was afraid and didn't want to go but was compelled to go as a bonding trip with his father. I wish they hadn't taken him.
No, I'm not going to say it... :-X
I almost did, but though better of it.
When my kids were afraid I only made them do stuff that either I knew were very safe or a needed life skill like driving. Up till this year no body had fallen (jumped?) off the sky bridge at the Grand Canyon.
Quote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:11:51 PMApparently, the young man aboard had said he was afraid and didn't want to go but was compelled to go as a bonding trip with his father. I wish they hadn't taken him.
I'm betting his family is wishing that right now as well, Anianna. From what I understand, the kid ultimately went as a Father's Day gift to his dad because the rest of his family talked him into it.
I can't even begin to imagine the awful guilt they're feeling right now about that.
And I just realized this kid was about the same age as my oldest nephew. I think I need to go hug him right now.
Quote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:32:24 PMQuote from: NT2C on June 22, 2023, 10:30:35 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:11:51 PMApparently, the young man aboard had said he was afraid and didn't want to go but was compelled to go as a bonding trip with his father. I wish they hadn't taken him.
No, I'm not going to say it... :-X
I almost did, but though better of it.
I did, but only in a PM to another member. I'm still going to Hell ...
Quote from: majorhavoc on June 23, 2023, 01:25:35 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:32:24 PMQuote from: NT2C on June 22, 2023, 10:30:35 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:11:51 PMApparently, the young man aboard had said he was afraid and didn't want to go but was compelled to go as a bonding trip with his father. I wish they hadn't taken him.
No, I'm not going to say it... :-X
I almost did, but though better of it.
I did, but only in a PM to another member. I'm still going to Hell ...
So, UFoZS 2.0?
Quote from: NT2C on June 23, 2023, 01:29:04 PMQuote from: majorhavoc on June 23, 2023, 01:25:35 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:32:24 PMQuote from: NT2C on June 22, 2023, 10:30:35 PMQuote from: Anianna on June 22, 2023, 10:11:51 PMApparently, the young man aboard had said he was afraid and didn't want to go but was compelled to go as a bonding trip with his father. I wish they hadn't taken him.
No, I'm not going to say it... :-X
I almost did, but though better of it.
I did, but only in a PM to another member. I'm still going to Hell ...
So, UFoZS 2.0?
Well, you know what they say about laughing with the sinners versus crying with the saints ...