We were discussing camouflage in the thread on second line gear, and I figured it would be worth starting a thread for it.
I don't think camouflage is a big necessity for me, but I don't think it hurts to have some appropriate to my area.
Partly I just wanted to start a thread about camouflage because I find it interesting. Funnily it was researching camouflage for painting toy tanks that got me interested.
I figure this can be about camouflaging all sorts of things like gear and vehicles and shelters, not just clothes, but the clothing forum seemed like the best place to put it.
What camouflage works best where you live? How much was price and availability of different patterns a factor in what you chose? Do you try to have different camo for different seasons, or try to find something that works most of the year and just make small changes based on season? Any other considerations you think are important?
Not standing out and making yourself a target are important, but I think grey man stuff probably needs its own thread and this one should be more focused on traditional camouflage. Saying how not wanting to stand out or look too threatening influenced your decisions is fine in this thread, but I could easily see this thread turning into mostly a discussion of khaki slacks and daypacks if we considered that camouflage.
(I've got a post with pictures of my area in the works, but they've got me working extra shifts and imgur is blocked so I'll try to get that posted later tonight.)
I don't live in an urban area (although to be fair: I do work in one). For the kinds of situations I am personally preparing for, the closest I come to camouflage is a grey man theme to my gear and clothing. If I went full camo, I'd stick out like a sore thumb.
I am, however partial to earthy colors, like tan, slate grey, brown and moss green. You'd have to see my gear to understand this, but it doesn't come across in the slightest as "camo". But if I were in the woods and didn't want to be seen, those colors would work well.
Quote from: majorhavoc on January 26, 2023, 07:16:14 PMI don't live in an urban area (although to be fair: I do work in one). For the kinds of situations I am personally preparing for, the closest I come to camouflage is a grey man theme to my gear and clothing. If I went full camo, I'd stick out like a sore thumb.
I am, however partial to earthy colors, like tan, slate grey, brown and moss green. You'd have to see my gear to understand this, but it doesn't come across in the slightest as "camo". But if I were in the woods and didn't want to be seen, those colors would work well.
I can sort of get away with wearing camo in day-to-day life. It's not that unusual around here. Although a full suit of matching camo would probably get looks.
I still don't normally pick camouflage for my everyday stuff, but like you I often wear earth tones. Since I think camouflage isn't a necessity for me I'm not going to get anything expensive, either camo that is cheap or if it's expensive it better be something I feel comfortable wearing in non-SHTF situations.
Where I live there is usually snow on the ground from late October to early May. I think that the Finnish method of white pants and a darker top makes sense here. The snow can pile up on spruce trees, and where they are dominant that can lead to most everything being almost solid white, but most of the mature white spruce trees were killed by beetles a few years back so that's not going to be as common.
Here's some new(ish) growth forest near me. Mostly birch and cottonwood.
(https://i.imgur.com/1vbi4uk.jpg)
Here's older growth.
(https://i.imgur.com/SGwS8B8.jpg)
Those pictures were after wind and rain had taken a lot of snow off the trees. Here's after some fresh snow.
(https://i.imgur.com/KK3Hgsq.jpg)
Here's my black and yellow glove against some of the most common trees.
(https://i.imgur.com/hEr8vVS.jpg)
I've got some British desert camo and American UCP camo gear that I picked up because it's super cheap. I figured I would try to dye it something close to Ranger Green, as I think that might not be too far off the white spruce around here during the winter and would blend in better with the very green environment we have in the summer. During the winter I could possibly tie off little bits of white fabric to open bits of molle to help it a bit.
(https://i.imgur.com/fpE3QpI.jpg)
UCP has a really bad reputation for not blending in with anything. I think that this environment might actually be about the best for it, but a more solid green might still be a better choice.
Here's a moose I saw while snowshoeing. They tend to stand out pretty bad in the winter, which seems weird from a survival standpoint but they've been making it for a long time.
(https://i.imgur.com/pQP81JZ.jpg)
Closer to the rivers around here cottonwoods become much more common. The muskeg swamps in the area are more likely to be much more covered in snow as they're mostly moss-choked ponds surrounded by thick stands of black spruce.
Quote from: Optimist on January 26, 2023, 02:18:56 PMWe were discussing camouflage in the thread on second line gear, and I figured it would be worth starting a thread for it.
I don't think camouflage is a big necessity for me, but I don't think it hurts to have some appropriate to my area.
Partly I just wanted to start a thread about camouflage because I find it interesting. Funnily it was researching camouflage for painting toy tanks that got me interested.
I figure this can be about camouflaging all sorts of things like gear and vehicles and shelters, not just clothes, but the clothing forum seemed like the best place to put it.
What camouflage works best where you live? How much was price and availability of different patterns a factor in what you chose? Do you try to have different camo for different seasons, or try to find something that works most of the year and just make small changes based on season? Any other considerations you think are important?
Not standing out and making yourself a target are important, but I think grey man stuff probably needs its own thread and this one should be more focused on traditional camouflage. Saying how not wanting to stand out or look too threatening influenced your decisions is fine in this thread, but I could easily see this thread turning into mostly a discussion of khaki slacks and daypacks if we considered that camouflage.
(I've got a post with pictures of my area in the works, but they've got me working extra shifts and imgur is blocked so I'll try to get that posted later tonight.)
I don't use a ton of camo either. I have an M81 Woodland Goretex jacket, my BOB is a MOLLE II system in M81 Woodland, and my GHB is Dutch DPM. I haven't put a tremendous amount of research into it, but I think M81 or Flecktarn is a good fit for my area of the US. (New England).
Found this, too. I'm sure it's on UFOZS somewhere, but I thought it was interesting. It's a seasonal map of the US with suggested camo patterns. I'd contest Swiss Alpenflage making it on the map, but I'm no expert.
US Camouflage Maps (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/us-camouflage-maps.2483/)
Quote from: echo83 on January 29, 2023, 01:37:06 PMFound this, too. I'm sure it's on UFOZS somewhere, but I thought it was interesting. It's a seasonal map of the US with suggested camo patterns. I'd contest Swiss Alpenflage making it on the map, but I'm no expert.
US Camouflage Maps (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/us-camouflage-maps.2483/)
Those are some cool maps! If I'm reading them right they're suggesting MARPAT Woodland for summer and Pencott Leatherneck for winter where I live.
The couple things I have in MARPAT are mostly brown, which I don't think would be the best choice for where I live but maybe I've got a desert pattern of MARPAT? I've never seen Pencott Leatherneck in real life.
I've not intentionally purchased camo so far, but I have purchased a bunch of surplus so I've got a menagerie of M81 Woodland, UCP, Alpenflage, Flecktarn, DPM Desert, MARPAT and assorted patterns I'm not familiar with. And of course a lot of OD Green, which varies immensely between the different pieces I have.
I've been picking up some cheap surplus in UCP and Desert DPM for myself and to give away as gifts that I think I'm going to try to dye something close to Ranger Green.
Quote from: echo83 on January 29, 2023, 01:37:06 PMQuote from: Optimist on January 26, 2023, 02:18:56 PMWe were discussing camouflage in the thread on second line gear, and I figured it would be worth starting a thread for it.
I don't think camouflage is a big necessity for me, but I don't think it hurts to have some appropriate to my area.
Partly I just wanted to start a thread about camouflage because I find it interesting. Funnily it was researching camouflage for painting toy tanks that got me interested.
I figure this can be about camouflaging all sorts of things like gear and vehicles and shelters, not just clothes, but the clothing forum seemed like the best place to put it.
What camouflage works best where you live? How much was price and availability of different patterns a factor in what you chose? Do you try to have different camo for different seasons, or try to find something that works most of the year and just make small changes based on season? Any other considerations you think are important?
Not standing out and making yourself a target are important, but I think grey man stuff probably needs its own thread and this one should be more focused on traditional camouflage. Saying how not wanting to stand out or look too threatening influenced your decisions is fine in this thread, but I could easily see this thread turning into mostly a discussion of khaki slacks and daypacks if we considered that camouflage.
(I've got a post with pictures of my area in the works, but they've got me working extra shifts and imgur is blocked so I'll try to get that posted later tonight.)
I don't use a ton of camo either. I have an M81 Woodland Goretex jacket, my BOB is a MOLLE II system in M81 Woodland, and my GHB is Dutch DPM. I haven't put a tremendous amount of research into it, but I think M81 or Flecktarn is a good fit for my area of the US. (New England).
Found this, too. I'm sure it's on UFOZS somewhere, but I thought it was interesting. It's a seasonal map of the US with suggested camo patterns. I'd contest Swiss Alpenflage making it on the map, but I'm no expert.
US Camouflage Maps (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/us-camouflage-maps.2483/)
That is a neat map. I am pleased to see how effective they think MARPAT and ATACS are in the Western half. I have bought and used both of these and found them very helpful.
Quote from: Dabster on January 31, 2023, 10:50:05 AMQuote from: echo83 on January 29, 2023, 01:37:06 PMQuote from: Optimist on January 26, 2023, 02:18:56 PMWe were discussing camouflage in the thread on second line gear, and I figured it would be worth starting a thread for it.
I don't think camouflage is a big necessity for me, but I don't think it hurts to have some appropriate to my area.
Partly I just wanted to start a thread about camouflage because I find it interesting. Funnily it was researching camouflage for painting toy tanks that got me interested.
I figure this can be about camouflaging all sorts of things like gear and vehicles and shelters, not just clothes, but the clothing forum seemed like the best place to put it.
What camouflage works best where you live? How much was price and availability of different patterns a factor in what you chose? Do you try to have different camo for different seasons, or try to find something that works most of the year and just make small changes based on season? Any other considerations you think are important?
Not standing out and making yourself a target are important, but I think grey man stuff probably needs its own thread and this one should be more focused on traditional camouflage. Saying how not wanting to stand out or look too threatening influenced your decisions is fine in this thread, but I could easily see this thread turning into mostly a discussion of khaki slacks and daypacks if we considered that camouflage.
(I've got a post with pictures of my area in the works, but they've got me working extra shifts and imgur is blocked so I'll try to get that posted later tonight.)
I don't use a ton of camo either. I have an M81 Woodland Goretex jacket, my BOB is a MOLLE II system in M81 Woodland, and my GHB is Dutch DPM. I haven't put a tremendous amount of research into it, but I think M81 or Flecktarn is a good fit for my area of the US. (New England).
Found this, too. I'm sure it's on UFOZS somewhere, but I thought it was interesting. It's a seasonal map of the US with suggested camo patterns. I'd contest Swiss Alpenflage making it on the map, but I'm no expert.
US Camouflage Maps (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/us-camouflage-maps.2483/)
That is a neat map. I am pleased to see how effective they think MARPAT and ATACS are in the Western half. I have bought and used both of these and found them very helpful.
Thanks, I thought so too. I think it's pretty accurate for my area, too.
I wouldn't wear MARPAT only because my brother is a Marine, and I don't need any mental/physical abuse from him. Looks like Flecktarn and Rhodesian Brush Stroke aren't going out of style anytime soon, either. Never mess with a classic. Pretty interesting!
I have an odd attraction to camo. I think it's just awesome. I use it for hunting, when I know it isn't absolutely vital for hunting.
My favorite clothing:
Skre
Badlands
Viel (nomad and killik brands)
Kryptek
Oddly enough, my clothes are a medley of the above, but actually blend well to not look super piece-meal.
I do think my favorite pattern is flecktarn
I have a long history of discussing camo on zs and on here. I grew up in the woods of the PNW. Hunted alot. And my father and grandfather were both trappers. My father was Yakama Indian and taught me alot. But my grandfather, my father and myself were also Marines. My grandfather fought in the Pacific during WWII. My father during Vietnam. I shot from a very young age. Always shot expert in the Corps. And was attached to a sniper platoon. (Sad to see the Marine Corps ditching the snipers.) I also own a private investigation firm. And have wotked and managed many urban and rural under cover operations and surveillances. Everywhere from rural Mississippi to Compton CA. I understand grey man. And camo.
So I have a fair amount of experience sneaking up on game. But more importantly people.
I don't think camo is appropriate for "going into town". Maybe a camo pack. Or a camo shirt etc. But I have a full set of lightweight earth tone hiking apparel in my bug out preps. Lightweight nylon Columbia or REI. Takes up little room. And serves its purpose. I don't look like a militia member wearing it. Instead of all camo.
My preps revolve around the worst case scenario. Not just a disaster or local short term event. I have clothing for those occassions. With some of my better camo gear mixed in. Just for expense sake. I don't feel I need two expensive goretex rain jackets. One camo and one grey man. And I don't think I will stand out that much in basically civilian clothes and a couple camo items.
The real issue for me with camo is two fold. The last place I want to try to exist in a paw or shtf breakdown is a town or city. I think things will be bad enough in rural areas with the mass of urban populations moving out once food becomes scarce. And having lived in a large city the criminal element will quickly take over. I'm sure of that. Not to mention starving people from neighboring areas.
So your not going to be wearing camo to sneak up on animals. YOU'RE GOING TO BE WEARING CAMO TO AVOID HUMANS.
Second, you're also going to most likely be carrying a long gun. And a larger than average pack - carrying just your survival gear. Sleep system, shelter, food, water etc. So with a large pack and a long gun you're a target whether you're dressed in khakis, carhartt or camo. Or whether you're just on your initial bug out or a trip to town after shtf.
So it's better to be equipped with all camo and have a small change of shirt and pants to better fit in in town. Rather than a full compliment of grey man and another full compliment of camo to remain hidden in the woods.
Like I said, I do carry drab "hiking" clothes for an initial bug out or more casual travel like into town. But either way, you're not avoiding any additional danger by trying to dress grey man all the time. Because your carrying valuable goods. A rifle and a pack full of gear. Even a small pack by itself is going to be searched by a bad guy with a gun. If he comes upon you. Those trying to pose danger don't care what you're dressed like. They are looking for firearms, ammo, food, gear etc. And you obviously have them. No matter what your dressed like.
I do have a folding stock on my long arm. That allows me to fit it into a backpack. But again, your carrying a pack. If a bad guy with a gun sees you. He's going to search or simply take your pack.
The military teaches you simple camo in boot camp. The idea of concealment vs cover. Concealment is blending in with your surroundings. Like a green object standing in front of a green wall. Or a camo wearing person hiding in the brush. Cover is actually standing behind something. Usually something that is bulletproof. But either way your hidden.
Even with all camo clothing and just some face paint. You can hide in plain site to within an astonishingly close distance. Todays camo clothing, including cheap 3D suits with head, face, hand and feet covers. Can keep you hidden to within a few feet. Depending on how well you blend into your surroundings. Are lightweight, breathable, quick to put on, and very effective.
So if you've decided living in town or a city is not a good thing. And you don't want to be a victim of the bad guys. And your forced to carry a long arm for defense and a backpack to carry even the most limited survival items. The advantage to wearing camo is that you can avoid all that danger. And/or decide how you are going to engage a perceived enemy. Which is a basic tenant of any conflict situation. Better to be not seen and have the choice of how any conflict is executed. Than to have your aggressor decide that.
But better yet. It's far wiser to let a threat pass by and avoid it altogether. Without camo it's much harder to do that.
There is a reason the military, special forces and combatants in general have used camo for centuries. Which I've described above. To not learn it, use it and take advantage of it. Is to your detriment. And its very easy to learn and use.
The main tenant of camo is to choose ONE PATTERN and augment it with local foliage if at all possible. Mixing camo does not work. As one camo may fit into your surroundings. But one or more of the others - always - will not. It will stand out. Like a bare piece of skin. A hand. A face. An un camo'd rifle barrel.
The practical issue of using camo today is about what will work in the most areas and climate. And what is available, affordably, in all the gear you need to be camouflaged.
The cheapest way would be to dye acu gear to ranger green. I did a write up about this in the backpack section. The drawback is the acu load bearing gear - chestrig, packs etc. Are outdated and quite heavy. But if I had a family or group I needed to equip. I would go this route. Its very affordable.
Multicam is the most widely available gear, for the most affordable price, appropriate for the widest range of terrain. Look at the excellent camo map above. Its widely suited to many areas. And very close to most of the other best camos in surrounding areas or varying seasons.
Is it perfect? No. Absolutely not. But no camo is perfect. That's why we augment it with man made and natural fibers. You can learn more about that on your own. Burlap wraps of different colors, paint, dirt, leaves, branches etc etc.
Most other camo patterns are either not available in everything you need in that pattern - pants, shirts, jackets, packs, rain jackets and pants, head gear, pouches etc. Or they are simply to expensive. But mostly its about availability.
Try to find everything you need in krypto, cadpat, realtree, marpat etc. It's impossible. You might find clothing. But you're not going to find a pack. Or various pouches or a rain jacket that fits. Etc etc. So one or more of the visible items on you is going to stand out and give you away.
But you would in multicam. You can find anything made in that pattern. You might be as successful with marpat as you can be with acu. But you are again limited to heavy packs and gear. And you won't find all the options available like in multicam. From cheap military surplus (USGI/UKGI) - to many civilian options. Multicam is widely available. And mostly affardable.
You can also customize multicam to your terrain with paint and possibly dye. And if your not a common military size you can still find plenty of multicam on the civilian market. That is lighterweight, and available in every piece of kit you might need.
You could try to outfit with kuiu or similar top end civilian brand and camo pattern. But it is going to be very difficult. And very expensive.
So I guess it comes down to what you are preparing for. A limited term natural disaster? A localized event? A simple power outage? Limited shtf like say Katrina? Long term shtf? PAW?
What is your worst case scenario?
But basically anything you're preparing for that might require you to operate in a rural environment and you want the advantage of not being seen. Camo is the answer.
I strongly suggest researching this on your own. YT has many videos about camo. Tests of simple $25 3D camo suits. Instruction in camo. And examples of people remaining hidden from feet away. Or even be stepped on because the camo they are wearing is very effective.
Lastly, I often see comments about people not using camo. Because they've hunted deer without it for years. And that its not necessary. A deer is very different from a human. The human eye can detect the slightest difference in patterns. From very far away.
If your preps include rural travel. And you have any concern about bad guys. I strongly encourage you to consider camo.
https://youtu.be/ihmq7uUrvFI
Quote from: flybynight on March 12, 2023, 09:37:05 PMhttps://youtu.be/ihmq7uUrvFI
You've posted him before right? I think you're the one that turned me on to him to begin with. Great videos.
His outfit is good. His use of camo paint is good. He's completely covered all of his exposed skin. Its not like the movies where they put a few strokes of paint and your good. It helps. But you really want to do what he did and cover all your skin. His cloak is great. I like that its expedient. He can just pull it out and put it on quick. Its also made of rugged enough material that he's not going to destroy it. And he can easily add local foliage.
Thats the basic idea behind a qhillie suit. To be covered and hidden while low crawling. The only difference is that a ghillie suit would cover your entire body. The back of it anyway. While in a prone position.
I will point out his mismatched camo jacket. Its a yellowish color. If it matched his pants and hat it would blend in better. The human eye can catch the straight line of the bottom of his yellowish jacket and the darker trousers. That straight line and color difference is not something you see in nature. If his camo was all matching you wouldn't see that. And if he was in a lower position your eye could be fooled into thinking he was just one object. Which is more natural. Rather than split in two with two different colors and patterns. Right at the waist line.
This is why I say to choose one pattern. From a distance you basically want to look like a bush or to be blended into your surroundings. You might see a darker or lighter bush. But not one that is distinctly two different colors or patterns.
Not to mention everything but the jacket could blend into his surroundings. But the yellowish jacket does not. When you wear more than one pattern one is always going to stand out. And you want to look like one thing that blends into your surroundings as much as possible. Plus where the different patterns meet creates straight lines. Again, that trigger the human eye as something you don't see in nature.
But ya. That guy is awesome. Love his videos.
Quote from: Moab on March 10, 2023, 03:41:41 PMLastly, I often see comments about people not using camo. Because they've hunted deer without it for years. And that its not necessary. A deer is very different from a human. The human eye can detect the slightest difference in patterns. From very far away.
That makes sense. Camouflage has never been an issue when I was hunting moose, but moose are not humans.
Quote from: flybynight on March 12, 2023, 09:37:05 PMhttps://youtu.be/ihmq7uUrvFI
Thanks for sharing that channel. That guy is in the same region of Alaska as me, so that's particularly useful.
I wish I had kept all my notes from university. One of the professors had done some research into animal vision and had some simulations that he showed at the first lesson including how a lot of popular camouflage was less suitable to protect against detection from animals.
The closest I could find online for now is this (https://www.camowarehouse.com.au/the-science-of-animal-vision/).
Check out the camo matrix on YouTube as well as their online simulator.
They do deer and human vision in a variety of patterns and environments.
https://camomatrix.com/
Quote from: tirls on June 28, 2023, 03:11:17 PMI wish I had kept all my notes from university. One of the professors had done some research into animal vision and had some simulations that he showed at the first lesson including how a lot of popular camouflage was less suitable to protect against detection from animals.
The closest I could find online for now is this (https://www.camowarehouse.com.au/the-science-of-animal-vision/).
That's an interesting article. It's cool to see how they interpret deer vision to look.
Quote from: JeeperCreeper on June 29, 2023, 01:58:32 AMCheck out the camo matrix on YouTube as well as their online simulator.
They do deer and human vision in a variety of patterns and environments.
https://camomatrix.com/
That seems like a cool resource. It's fun to plug in different patterns and see how they look over different backgrounds.
I'm sure you folks have seen Brent0331's youtube videos. I used to watch them during my lunch breaks as a kind of 'Where's Waldo?' game.
I took a couple pictures while on a short hike today. It's super bright green here in the summer.
New growth forest (underbrush is most in the thigh-to-chest height range)
(https://i.imgur.com/hG0e75K.jpg)
Old growth forest (underbrush is mostly chest and head height)
(https://i.imgur.com/Pg13wZB.jpg)
Years ago I first became interested in camo and spent some time researching it. The funny thing is the reason had nothing to do with wearing it but because I was painting sci-fi toy tanks and that lead me down the rabbithole of reading about it (I can't claim to know very much though).
The article tirls shared mentioned macro and micro camouflage. That was one of the main things I found interesting years ago. The basic idea being that big splotches of color looked too obvious close up. Little splotches looked better close up, but once the viewer was far enough away the little splotches tended to fuzz together and the whole uniform just looked like one color. Distance is where the big splotches did better, still helping to break up the outline of the person.
The history I read was that for a while people figured you just had to deal with the tradeoffs of having bigger or smaller patterns and their respective performance at different distances. Then some people figured out that the camouflage pattern could have a bunch of smaller splotches that could be designed to fuzz together at longer distance to form larger splotches, making something that could work fairly well at a wide variety of distances.
I bring this up because a lot of newer camo patterns to me look like they are all micro camouflage that would work well up close but maybe not at distance. Maybe the idea of having camo that works both up close and far away turned out not to work so well in practice? The articles I read on the subject might very well have been out of date. There's also the distinct possibility that the newer patterns are designed so well that I only notice the micro camouflage and don't notice the macro pattern behind it.
For a year or two now I've been watching rifle painting videos for fun. There's something about them that scratches the same itch as acrylic pour painting videos. (The first time I saw one of those acrylic pour videos I accidentally stayed up until 3 AM watching one after another.) More often than not they seem to start broadly with a macro pattern of broad stripes but then they add so much additional layers and details that it seems like the larger pattern is gone and it's all micro. Of course these are individuals with spraypaint, not big companies with R&D teams designing new patterns. It's also possible that they know something I don't and I overvalue some of the bigger higher contrast splotches.
Quote from: Optimist on July 10, 2023, 02:31:24 AMThe article tirls shared mentioned macro and micro camouflage. That was one of the main things I found interesting years ago. The basic idea being that big splotches of color looked too obvious close up. Little splotches looked better close up, but once the viewer was far enough away the little splotches tended to fuzz together and the whole uniform just looked like one color. Distance is where the big splotches did better, still helping to break up the outline of the person.
The history I read was that for a while people figured you just had to deal with the tradeoffs of having bigger or smaller patterns and their respective performance at different distances. Then some people figured out that the camouflage pattern could have a bunch of smaller splotches that could be designed to fuzz together at longer distance to form larger splotches, making something that could work fairly well at a wide variety of distances.
I bring this up because a lot of newer camo patterns to me look like they are all micro camouflage that would work well up close but maybe not at distance. Maybe the idea of having camo that works both up close and far away turned out not to work so well in practice? The articles I read on the subject might very well have been out of date. There's also the distinct possibility that the newer patterns are designed so well that I only notice the micro camouflage and don't notice the macro pattern behind it.
I think this is exactly why the US military initially adopted M81 Woodland (a personal favorite of mine) which is an enlarged version of ERDL.
Woodland seems to run into this same problem, at least according to Wikipedia:
The effect of enlarging the pattern was to make the pattern more visible at a distance, avoiding "blobbing", where smaller areas of color seem to blend into larger blobs. This also gave the pattern a higher contrast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_(vision))
, making it stand out more sharply at close distances and defeating the camouflage effect at closer range. Digital (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_camouflage)
and Flecktarn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flecktarn)
camouflage patterns resolve this problem by using a range of blob sizes to give a similar effect whatever the distance.What's confusing to me is the above makes it sound like M81 Woodland fails at all ranges, right? The plains of Europe would make it more visible at a distance, and close-up use in a forest would make it more visible, too? Doesn't make sense. It should either be great at long distance and poor at close distance, or vise versa.
It can't suck at all distances. I won't allow it. All my inna woods gear is M81 woodland!
Quote from: Optimist on July 10, 2023, 02:31:24 AMFor a year or two now I've been watching rifle painting videos for fun. There's something about them that scratches the same itch as acrylic pour painting videos.
Have you seen the ones where they use the liquid dish soap yet?
Quote from: echo83 on July 13, 2023, 09:16:54 PMI think this is exactly why the US military initially adopted M81 Woodland (a personal favorite of mine) which is an enlarged version of ERDL.
Woodland seems to run into this same problem, at least according to Wikipedia:
The effect of enlarging the pattern was to make the pattern more visible at a distance, avoiding "blobbing", where smaller areas of color seem to blend into larger blobs. This also gave the pattern a higher contrast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_(vision)), making it stand out more sharply at close distances and defeating the camouflage effect at closer range. Digital (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_camouflage) and Flecktarn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flecktarn) camouflage patterns resolve this problem by using a range of blob sizes to give a similar effect whatever the distance.
What's confusing to me is the above makes it sound like M81 Woodland fails at all ranges, right? The plains of Europe would make it more visible at a distance, and close-up use in a forest would make it more visible, too? Doesn't make sense. It should either be great at long distance and poor at close distance, or vise versa.
It can't suck at all distances. I won't allow it. All my inna woods gear is M81 woodland!
If I'm reading it right what they mean by "make the pattern more visible at distance" is that the pattern still works at distance, instead of blobbing into single color, but isn't as good at close range because of the high contrast large blobs.
I also have a soft spot for M81 Woodland, having been born in the 80s. I think it's too dark for where I live, but I was thinking about adding some Arcturus Laser-Cut Leaf Strips (https://arcturusgear.com/collections/ghillie-accessories-byo-kits/products/arcturus-3d-loose-leaf-bundle-50-laser-cut-leaf-strips?variant=39301214699631) in Summer Green during the summer taking it off and putting on something similar in white in the winter.
An interesting video series I saw on the history of M81 Woodland (I think it was on the Uniform History Youtube channel, you might have seen the same thing) was that going from ERDL to M81 they intentionally made the whole pattern darker than what they wanted because they noticed manufacturers tended to dye colors lighter when doing huge runs and also the pattern would fade with time.
Quote from: MacWa77ace on July 14, 2023, 07:41:18 AMHave you seen the ones where they use the liquid dish soap yet?
Yeah, those ones are fun to watch!
Quote from: MacWa77ace on July 14, 2023, 07:41:18 AMQuote from: Optimist on July 10, 2023, 02:31:24 AMFor a year or two now I've been watching rifle painting videos for fun. There's something about them that scratches the same itch as acrylic pour painting videos.
Have you seen the ones where they use the liquid dish soap yet?
I'm gonna be a hipster about this.... My brother showed me surf dudes doing their boards with dish soap a few years ago. My first thought went to camo for guns because the laundry bag is way played out.
I found no camo threads on the internet about dish soap camp on any forum, blog, or reddit.
So I played around with it...
Now, you're seeing it start to pop up on reddit, Facebook groups, and forums.
I'm mad at myself for not doing YouTube videos and stuff about it so I could say "look at me, I'm first!!"
I'm going to start doing designs with Vaseline.
You heard it here first! Rattle can Vaseline gun camo!!!!
Quote from: Optimist on July 14, 2023, 01:51:28 PMQuote from: echo83 on July 13, 2023, 09:16:54 PMI think this is exactly why the US military initially adopted M81 Woodland (a personal favorite of mine) which is an enlarged version of ERDL.
Woodland seems to run into this same problem, at least according to Wikipedia:
The effect of enlarging the pattern was to make the pattern more visible at a distance, avoiding "blobbing", where smaller areas of color seem to blend into larger blobs. This also gave the pattern a higher contrast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_(vision)), making it stand out more sharply at close distances and defeating the camouflage effect at closer range. Digital (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_camouflage) and Flecktarn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flecktarn) camouflage patterns resolve this problem by using a range of blob sizes to give a similar effect whatever the distance.
What's confusing to me is the above makes it sound like M81 Woodland fails at all ranges, right? The plains of Europe would make it more visible at a distance, and close-up use in a forest would make it more visible, too? Doesn't make sense. It should either be great at long distance and poor at close distance, or vise versa.
It can't suck at all distances. I won't allow it. All my inna woods gear is M81 woodland!
If I'm reading it right what they mean by "make the pattern more visible at distance" is that the pattern still works at distance, instead of blobbing into single color, but isn't as good at close range because of the high contrast large blobs.
Got it. Yeah, that makes way more sense. Instead of seeing a formation of obviously human-shaped olive drab lumps approaching from a distance, the individual colors are still intact and work to break up the contour.
On a kind-of related note, I wonder why so few people take a page from the IDF handbook and use solid olive drab as a primary uniform. The history behind it is pretty interesting; olive drab works well enough with their environment, is cheaper to manufacture, and helps the Israelis differentiate their own units from enemy units, which all use patterned camouflage.
There are some exceptions, like the mitznefet ("chef's hat") but plain olive drab seems most common.
Quote from: JeeperCreeper on July 14, 2023, 11:25:35 PMQuote from: MacWa77ace on July 14, 2023, 07:41:18 AMQuote from: Optimist on July 10, 2023, 02:31:24 AMFor a year or two now I've been watching rifle painting videos for fun. There's something about them that scratches the same itch as acrylic pour painting videos.
Have you seen the ones where they use the liquid dish soap yet?
I'm gonna be a hipster about this.... My brother showed me surf dudes doing their boards with dish soap a few years ago. My first thought went to camo for guns because the laundry bag is way played out.
I found no camo threads on the internet about dish soap camp on any forum, blog, or reddit.
So I played around with it...
Now, you're seeing it start to pop up on reddit, Facebook groups, and forums.
I'm mad at myself for not doing YouTube videos and stuff about it so I could say "look at me, I'm first!!"
I'm going to start doing designs with Vaseline.
You heard it here first! Rattle can Vaseline gun camo!!!!
The thing about dish soap is it cleans off easily.
There's certain types of hairspray that are used in a similar way to the dish soap for painting models. Not sure how well it would work for rifles.
Quote from: Optimist on July 16, 2023, 04:29:08 PMThere's certain types of hairspray that are used in a similar way to the dish soap for painting models. Not sure how well it would work for rifles.
I'm gonna hafta dig into that.
Elmer's glue is another I've been seeing popping up.
I bet there might even be some modelling clay as well.
Things that stick, but easy to clean up
Another thing frequently used in model painting is silly putty. It's easy to stick down (especially on uneven surfaces), easy to peel back off without removing paint and can be reused. Sometimes I see people using stickers and once they get several layers of stickers and paint in it is hard to remove the first layers. Not a problem with silly putty.
Of course silly putty is hard to do crisp edges with, so if someone wanted to replicate a digital pattern stickers still have a place.
Quote from: JeeperCreeper on July 16, 2023, 05:26:09 PMQuote from: Optimist on July 16, 2023, 04:29:08 PMThere's certain types of hairspray that are used in a similar way to the dish soap for painting models. Not sure how well it would work for rifles.
I'm gonna hafta dig into that.
Elmer's glue is another I've been seeing popping up.
I bet there might even be some modelling clay as well.
Things that stick, but easy to clean up
If you're going to spend money, there's spray on, and paint on, or stick on 'masking' material you can get at an artstore. But its not as cheap as dish soap, mesh bags or leaves. And it takes more work. These other techniques are cheap and fast and effective.
https://www.paintingwithwatercolors.com/2012/02/art-masking-fluid/
Interesting.
https://youtu.be/qm44zLdi5O8?si=7P6KjH1s2Eb02Yv0
There is a brief period of a couple weeks where the snow is nearly all gone but the leaves haven't come out yet. That's the one time of year where brown is actually pretty common in my area. In the fall there is also more brown but still a lot of greens all the way until the snow starts piling up (and also a bunch of yellow and a little red/orange in the fall).
Took a little hike through the woods the other day. This is the brownest area I could find. It's looking down from the top of a little ridge.
(https://i.imgur.com/UjR6TbA.jpg)
Someone in head-to-toe green would stand out pretty bad there.
Here's what things tend to look like from the side like normal, rather than looking down from a vantage point:
(https://i.imgur.com/AORI2st.jpg)
I don't think it's worth having much in the way of brown stuff just because it's such a brief period, but maybe it would be worth having some brown strips of cloth in an appropriate color to tie on, especially as a lot of the brown come from leaves which don't seem like they would be easy to stick on your stuff
Back when I lived in AZ, and now that I'm back again, I thought the Gulf War era chocolate chip desert camo with either OD or woodland gear worn over it was about the best for my environment. Nowadays, 6 color, 3 color, or multicam with either OD or coyote brown gear seems to work just fine. I collect Cold War and early GWOT era uniforms and equipment and used to airsoft, so it got frustrating when I'd butt heads with folks who were overly focused on recreating a specific special unit's attire and equipment instead of focusing on what worked for the location, season, and weather. Typically the only person who had snivel gear or carried enough water and refused to drop hundreds of dollars on equipment just to make it "look right." At the same time, I wore the same equipment and uniforms I wore as a Cadet and worked out my needs for hours long events and tailored my gear to that. Got some really strange but positive comments about my 1980s/90s "Ranger" kit. I was no ranger. lol
Time to resuscitate this thread! :awesome:
I was aimlessly scrolling through news on camouflage and I saw two interesting tidbits:
- I think we have all seen Russian troops wearing a lot of ATACS-FG. I assumed we were seeing a huge copyright infringement but I saw somewhere that Russia bought rights to ATACS-FG and were attempting to be the sole supplier. Nothing of this mentioned here: https://www.a-tacs.com/our-patterns. Has anyone heard anything about this?
- Someone, I suspect Russians, has made an arid/grassland version of ATACS. They're calling it Eastern ATACS.
(https://kula-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/1205858_03_kopiya-1.webp)
Seems to be a nice compromise between ATACS AU and ATACS FG.
Quote from: Dabster on August 20, 2024, 11:16:26 AMTime to resuscitate this thread! :awesome:
I was aimlessly scrolling through news on camouflage and I saw two interesting tidbits:
- I think we have all seen Russian troops wearing a lot of ATACS-FG. I assumed we were seeing a huge copyright infringement but I saw somewhere that Russia bought rights to ATACS-FG and were attempting to be the sole supplier. Nothing of this mentioned here: https://www.a-tacs.com/our-patterns. Has anyone heard anything about this?
- Someone, I suspect Russians, has made an arid/grassland version of ATACS. They're calling it Eastern ATACS.
(https://kula-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/1205858_03_kopiya-1.webp)
Seems to be a nice compromise between ATACS AU and ATACS FG.
I really like ATACS patterns, just can't find too many quality manufacturers anymore.
Also reminds me of the Turkish Air Force camp that last got imported and being peddled by Americana Pipedream
Does anybody know if Camo Distributors still exists? There used to be a few storefronts on eBay. They were usually of similar quality to TruSpec and Propper and still made patterns discontinued by both, like 6 color desert and subdued urban camo in ripstop. I can't find anything on them now.
I have a just for fun question...
What does everyone think of ATACS ix?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QD5eJKFyYFw/sddefault.jpg)
https://store.tactical-performance.com/category/atacs-ix.html
As a confirmed ATACS fanboy, I am obligated to like it but have some questions for anyone with the time to reply:
- This is supposedly a universal camouflage, why is it so dark?
- It seems reminiscent of tiger stripe. Is this productive or a silly affectation?
- Anyone bought some and tried it?
Thanks!
A lot of people seem to like ATACS. I have no experience with it and have never even seen it in real life.
I need to finish my gear-dying project now that there's snow covering everything again, but the area I would do it in is covered in the remnants of summer chaos and so it's going to take a lot of cleaning first.