So I've been using the patrol bag from the USGI MSS system. I am thinking about something down, now that hydrophobic down is more reliable, and somewhat affordable. Thinking that way I can get something warmer and packs smaller. I'd keep it not packed down in my vehicle, along with my GHB, and could stuff it into the bag when it's needed.
Thoughts, options, criticisms welcome.
N
I'd say it kind of depends on your environment, I'm in Texas and have used the complete MSS during winter and been fine with the addition of a woobie. If I were in Alaska during December I'd be looking at something definitively better than the MSS.
I'm in Ohio, hot and humid in the Summer (less of a concern), and cold in the Winter. Not usually a lot below freezing, but I have seen it get down to 0 degrees F and just a little below that. I sleep fairly warm (the patrol bag rated to 40 will see me down to about freezing, though I think it's loosing efficiency, another reason to consider replacing it). So I'm looking for something rated for 32 or lower, preferably lower. If part of the goal weren't to reduce space, and not go up much if at all in weight, I would just go for the complete MSS.
N
I'd have to dig my MSS out to check myself, but how much of the weight is in the bivvie?
Might be worth checking the patrol sack + cold weather sack combined weight, and see if that's acceptable.
It might be, though I don't have the cold weather bag, nor the bivvy currently. As I recall, the cold weather bag is both heavy and bulky. I'm also tall with wide shoulders, so I remember the cold weather bag feeling very restrictive. I do wonder if acquiring one of the bivvies might help with the temp concern, but then that doesn't help with the space issue.
So the MSS in it's entirety weighs in at 9.5lbs, but I have used it in below zero temps and was warm enough (with proper clothing), however I'm 5'9 and fairly broad shouldered.
The Goretex bivvy will generally add 15 degrees F, so if what you are using is good at 40 F then adding the Bivvy should take you down to 25 F, however that's just a general rule of thumb. Although it does pack down pretty small and doesn't weigh much really.
If you are really in the market for a new Sleeping Bag I'd check https://www.rei.com/c/sleeping-bags-and-accessories?ir=category%3Asleeping-bags-and-accessories&r=c%3Btemperature-rating-f%3A30+to+39&sort=min-price (https://www.rei.com/c/sleeping-bags-and-accessories?ir=category%3Asleeping-bags-and-accessories&r=c%3Btemperature-rating-f%3A30+to+39&sort=min-price) to start, or I'd get a mostly good condition MSS from some online surplus store.
Also it's worth considering the Kifaru Woobie/Doobie, those are pretty awesome and did right by me for right around freezing temps.
I'm wondering, instead of the heavier bag, layering two of the patrol bags and the bivvy. Sure, it won't go as cold but it would save some weight and space, while still getting me a decent bit below freezing. Thoughts?
The layering is going to be interesting simply because they are the same bag, so you will probably get better insulation out of it but, they aren't going to snap together as the regular bags will.
Definitely pick up the Bivvy, that thing is worth the extra money/weight/mass/whatever in my experience so you can't really go wrong with it.
If nothing else give it a shot, worst case you have an extra patrol bag you can loan out.
Two is one, one is none... The more I think about it, staying synthetic has value, especially if(when) the weather turns wet. Synthetic plus gore-tex plus tarp should keep me warm and mostly dry.
N
The bivy sack is 2 pounds. It technically does not add to the temperature rating of the bag but it definitely keeps the wind out which keeps you warmer. A poncho liner in good shape weighs 1.5 pounds and will add probably 15-20 degrees to your bag. One combo I have wanted to try is the MSS bivy, a poncho liner, and one of the Reactor bag liners from Sea to Summit. They advertise adding as much as 32 degrees depending on which one you get.
By the way, be sure to sleep on a good pad. One of the coldest nights of sleep that I have ever gotten, I was in all 3 layers of the MSS. It only got down to probably the high 20s but I didn't use a pad and slept on short grass next to an airfield. All of my body heat went right into the ground. I was miserable.
Quote from: Lettuce Pray on June 20, 2021, 09:06:03 PM
The bivy sack is 2 pounds. It technically does not add to the temperature rating of the bag but it definitely keeps the wind out which keeps you warmer. A poncho liner in good shape weighs 1.5 pounds and will add probably 15-20 degrees to your bag. One combo I have wanted to try is the MSS bivy, a poncho liner, and one of the Reactor bag liners from Sea to Summit. They advertise adding as much as 32 degrees depending on which one you get.
By the way, be sure to sleep on a good pad. One of the coldest nights of sleep that I have ever gotten, I was in all 3 layers of the MSS. It only got down to probably the high 20s but I didn't use a pad and slept on short grass next to an airfield. All of my body heat went right into the ground. I was miserable.
Yeah, I have a nice pad that has a 6+ R rating, so yeah. I too have had the terrible experience of the ground sucking all my heat out, and that was at temps over 70.
If its just for car use, the MSS works just fine and is affordable and tough. If you plan to walk anywhere with it I think a lighter bag is a good investment.
One bag of a given temp rating will be lighter than a two bag system of the same rating, all else being equal (more fabric and zipper dead weight).
bag liners have merit in keeping your bag clean, but will never add as much warmth as the same weight added to the insulation of the main bag (an 8oz liner will never be as warm as 8 MORE oz of down in the bag itself). for this reason I don't care for them.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on June 26, 2021, 05:22:22 PM
If its just for car use, the MSS works just fine and is affordable and tough. If you plan to walk anywhere with it I think a lighter bag is a good investment.
One bag of a given temp rating will be lighter than a two bag system of the same rating, all else being equal (more fabric and zipper dead weight).
bag liners have merit in keeping your bag clean, but will never add as much warmth as the same weight added to the insulation of the main bag (an 8oz liner will never be as warm as 8 MORE oz of down in the bag itself). for this reason I don't care for them.
Some really good points, thanks. Unless there is a NEED, or tech changes some, my camping is all of the car variety, though I don't want to practice with glamping. For now, I'm using the MSS patrol bag and the bivy, with a lightweight tarp.
I've been looking for a sleeping bag to put in my Suburban for winter emergencies. I have a wool blanket, some of those emergency Mylar "blankets", and a waterproof blanket, but a sleeping bag is a lot easier for, you know, sleeping! Specifically, the one I'd been looking at is the TETON Sports Celsius XXL (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001D6TB8W). I have a few older sleeping bags, but they're not great for cold weather (to be fair, they're also too hot for warm weather, so I'm not sure when they're best suited for use). I'm not too worried about size/weight, since this isn't something I'm planning to carry around in a pack. It's really just to put into my truck as a just-in-case sort of thing.
Yeah, the nice thing about a bad for vehicle use (be it car camping or just in case) is weight and space aren't concerns. For that purpose, that looks like it might be a good choice. I certainly wouldn't want to have to hike it anyplace though. 7 pounds!
Quote from: Nyte on June 27, 2021, 08:37:40 AM
Yeah, the nice thing about a bad for vehicle use (be it car camping or just in case) is weight and space aren't concerns. For that purpose, that looks like it might be a good choice. I certainly wouldn't want to have to hike it anyplace though. 7 pounds!
Could be worse - my parents had one which probably weighed in around 15 lbs! I remember using that one as a kid when I'd camp in the back yard. The one time I did some hiking at camp, I had to borrow a real hiking bag from someone else.
Quote from: EBuff75 on June 27, 2021, 10:55:23 AM
Quote from: Nyte on June 27, 2021, 08:37:40 AM
Yeah, the nice thing about a bad for vehicle use (be it car camping or just in case) is weight and space aren't concerns. For that purpose, that looks like it might be a good choice. I certainly wouldn't want to have to hike it anyplace though. 7 pounds!
Could be worse - my parents had one which probably weighed in around 15 lbs! I remember using that one as a kid when I'd camp in the back yard. The one time I did some hiking at camp, I had to borrow a real hiking bag from someone else.
Oh I agree, I remember the days of super heavy sleeping bags. Modern innovation is a very welcome thing in this case.
Here is a preliminary list, the total weights are correct with what's there, I was able to weigh the total weight, the weight of the current clothes bag, and the food that's in it right now.
https://lighterpack.com/r/ht6iph
Quote from: Nyte on June 27, 2021, 05:32:12 PM
Here is a preliminary list, the total weights are correct with what's there, I was able to weigh the total weight, the weight of the current clothes bag, and the food that's in it right now.
https://lighterpack.com/r/ht6iph
Since it's a 2-3 day kit, why not just a ranger roll? Poncho and woobie, add a--I think they're called--casualty blanket (like a heavy-duty mylar blanket glued to a tarp) when you expect cold, and further add a wool blanket if you expect it to be really cold.
Your maximum weight might not be all that low, but you could pack the casualty blanket and wool blanket by themselves and add/discard weight as-needed. Maybe also do things like remove the poncho to use as a tarp, and the casualty blanket as a ground sheet or the outside of the roll.
Quote from: boskone on June 27, 2021, 06:21:45 PM
Quote from: Nyte on June 27, 2021, 05:32:12 PM
Here is a preliminary list, the total weights are correct with what's there, I was able to weigh the total weight, the weight of the current clothes bag, and the food that's in it right now.
https://lighterpack.com/r/ht6iph
Since it's a 2-3 day kit, why not just a ranger roll? Poncho and woobie, add a--I think they're called--casualty blanket (like a heavy-duty mylar blanket glued to a tarp) when you expect cold, and further add a wool blanket if you expect it to be really cold.
Your maximum weight might not be all that low, but you could pack the casualty blanket and wool blanket by themselves and add/discard weight as-needed. Maybe also do things like remove the poncho to use as a tarp, and the casualty blanket as a ground sheet or the outside of the roll.
Some of it is using mostly what I already have, and not having a lot of space to add more stuff that isn't going to get used frequently. Sometimes it gets a little more food and becomes a 3-5 day camper, sometimes it just sits at the ready. It's kind of a do all bag for me right now, and funds aren't what I'd like them to be.
Those are good suggestions though. Not sure the wool blanket I have would be much lighter than the bag/bivy.
Quote from: Nyte on June 27, 2021, 07:31:43 PM
Not sure the wool blanket I have would be much lighter than the bag/bivy.
Do some back-yard testing, maybe, and figure out when you actually need the blanket; leave it out when it's not needed, strap it to the top or bottom when it is.
Quote from: boskone on June 27, 2021, 07:45:40 PM
Quote from: Nyte on June 27, 2021, 07:31:43 PM
Not sure the wool blanket I have would be much lighter than the bag/bivy.
Do some back-yard testing, maybe, and figure out when you actually need the blanket; leave it out when it's not needed, strap it to the top or bottom when it is.
Yeah, the plan is hopefully this coming weekend I'm going to go do a shakedown camp. See what works and what doesn't, what seems extra.
Look at dridown from kelty. Kelty makes some of the most reasonably priced down bags. I have 0f bags i picked up for $150 a piece on sale. Once a year they put everything on sale. To accommodate there new designs for the coming year. Mine are just normal down. That i keep inside of the mss bivy. I need to upgrade to dridown tho.
Down is way lighter. And with the new dridown types of down alot less likely to absorb moisture. Not waterproof. But better than plain down.
I used the mss before this. And still have 2 of them. That are part of my car kits now. Way to heavy to hump. While the keltys are not ultra light. They are about half the weight of the mss. For just a bit more money. They also store way way smaller.
Lastly, sleeping bag ratings are basically based on this will keep you from freezing to death at this given temp. Not "you will be comfortable at this given temp". And there is no industry standard. Iirc. So buy well below what you need. I bought 0f with the idea that it would keep me warm in the 20f to 30f range.
Oh. And dont sleep naked. Thats either a fallacy or something your pervy boy scout leader came up with. Youd be surprised how many people think sleeping naked will make you warmer than if you slept in layers.
Quote from: Moab on August 11, 2021, 11:01:10 AM
Look at dridown from kelty. Kelty makes some of the most reasonably priced down bags. I have 0f bags i picked up for $150 a piece on sale. Once a year they put everything on sale. To accommodate there new designs for the coming year. Mine are just normal down. That i keep inside of the mss bivy. I need to upgrade to dridown tho.
Down is way lighter. And with the new dridown types of down alot less likely to absorb moisture. Not waterproof. But better than plain down.
I used the mss before this. And still have 2 of them. That are part of my car kits now. Way to heavy to hump. While the keltys are not ultra light. They are about half the weight of the mss. For just a bit more money. They also store way way smaller.
Lastly, sleeping bag ratings are basically based on this will keep you from freezing to death at this given temp. Not "you will be comfortable at this given temp". And there is no industry standard. Iirc. So buy well below what you need. I bought 0f with the idea that it would keep me warm in the 20f to 30f range.
Oh. And dont sleep naked. Thats either a fallacy or something your pervy boy scout leader came up with. Youd be surprised how many people think sleeping naked will make you warmer than if you slept in layers.
Yeah, I'm definitely transitioning to down. Yeah, sleeping naked doesn't equal extra warmth, like you I don't know where that came from, unless of course your clothes are all wet, then yeah, get out of them to get warm. I tend to sleep hot, so unless it's cold, I don't tend to sleep in a lot, but I'm also less in/under my bag then. I'm actually looking at quilts, like the ones from Enlightened Equipment, just may have to save up a little first.
Quote from: Nyte on August 11, 2021, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 11, 2021, 11:01:10 AM
Look at dridown from kelty. Kelty makes some of the most reasonably priced down bags. I have 0f bags i picked up for $150 a piece on sale. Once a year they put everything on sale. To accommodate there new designs for the coming year. Mine are just normal down. That i keep inside of the mss bivy. I need to upgrade to dridown tho.
Down is way lighter. And with the new dridown types of down alot less likely to absorb moisture. Not waterproof. But better than plain down.
I used the mss before this. And still have 2 of them. That are part of my car kits now. Way to heavy to hump. While the keltys are not ultra light. They are about half the weight of the mss. For just a bit more money. They also store way way smaller.
Lastly, sleeping bag ratings are basically based on this will keep you from freezing to death at this given temp. Not "you will be comfortable at this given temp". And there is no industry standard. Iirc. So buy well below what you need. I bought 0f with the idea that it would keep me warm in the 20f to 30f range.
Oh. And dont sleep naked. Thats either a fallacy or something your pervy boy scout leader came up with. Youd be surprised how many people think sleeping naked will make you warmer than if you slept in layers.
Yeah, I'm definitely transitioning to down. Yeah, sleeping naked doesn't equal extra warmth, like you I don't know where that came from, unless of course your clothes are all wet, then yeah, get out of them to get warm. I tend to sleep hot, so unless it's cold, I don't tend to sleep in a lot, but I'm also less in/under my bag then. I'm actually looking at quilts, like the ones from Enlightened Equipment, just may have to save up a little first.
Quilts are lighter. Thats a good thing.
Ya. I sleep hot too. But in extreme cold extra layers can help the rating of your bag.
Quote from: Moab on August 11, 2021, 02:35:36 PM
Quote from: Nyte on August 11, 2021, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: Moab on August 11, 2021, 11:01:10 AM
Look at dridown from kelty. Kelty makes some of the most reasonably priced down bags. I have 0f bags i picked up for $150 a piece on sale. Once a year they put everything on sale. To accommodate there new designs for the coming year. Mine are just normal down. That i keep inside of the mss bivy. I need to upgrade to dridown tho.
Down is way lighter. And with the new dridown types of down alot less likely to absorb moisture. Not waterproof. But better than plain down.
I used the mss before this. And still have 2 of them. That are part of my car kits now. Way to heavy to hump. While the keltys are not ultra light. They are about half the weight of the mss. For just a bit more money. They also store way way smaller.
Lastly, sleeping bag ratings are basically based on this will keep you from freezing to death at this given temp. Not "you will be comfortable at this given temp". And there is no industry standard. Iirc. So buy well below what you need. I bought 0f with the idea that it would keep me warm in the 20f to 30f range.
Oh. And dont sleep naked. Thats either a fallacy or something your pervy boy scout leader came up with. Youd be surprised how many people think sleeping naked will make you warmer than if you slept in layers.
Yeah, I'm definitely transitioning to down. Yeah, sleeping naked doesn't equal extra warmth, like you I don't know where that came from, unless of course your clothes are all wet, then yeah, get out of them to get warm. I tend to sleep hot, so unless it's cold, I don't tend to sleep in a lot, but I'm also less in/under my bag then. I'm actually looking at quilts, like the ones from Enlightened Equipment, just may have to save up a little first.
Quilts are lighter. Thats a good thing.
Ya. I sleep hot too. But in extreme cold extra layers can help the rating of your bag.
Agreed. I've taken the patrol bag below freezing with layers. Not a lot below, and it wasn't the most comfortable night, but I got enough sleep.
The "sleep naked" thing I hear most often from Marines, so I tend to blame them for starting it. My theory is they (like most militaries) still wear cotton heavy clothes (50% currently) and don't trust their people to be able to tell when their clothes are too wet to sleep in so decided to lowest-common-denominator their sleeping instructions rather than try to train better practices.
With modern synthetic clothing not only does sleeping in your clothing provide extra warmth, but does the important job of chasing residual moisture out so you wake up with nice dry layers ready to face the day without the need to change. In the last few years I've even started to commit the ultimate heresy of not even bothering to change my socks for multiday trips; with a good sleep system they are dry every morning.
That seems as reasonable explanation as any, and makes some good sense. I also find that with good wool socks, leaving them on for several days in the field has no ill effects. I still carry an extra pair though.
I split the difference, and carry sleeping clothes appropriate to the circumstances. Summer is a t-shirt, and mesh shorts; but (topically) in winter something like thick socks, sweat pants, and a warm shirt.
The sleeping clothes only get worn for sleeping; putting them on is the last thing I do in the evening, and swapping back to day clothes is the second thing I do in the morning (after putting my contacts back in).
That does two things, IMO: ensures I have nice clean clothes to sleep in (I hate sleeping in 'greasy' clothing), and gives my other clothes a chance to air out/dry/whatever. And, secondarily, in the interim between I can often at least wipe down with a baby wipe or something.
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 11, 2021, 09:46:16 PM
The "sleep naked" thing I hear most often from Marines, so I tend to blame them for starting it. My theory is they (like most militaries) still wear cotton heavy clothes (50% currently) and don't trust their people to be able to tell when their clothes are too wet to sleep in so decided to lowest-common-denominator their sleeping instructions rather than try to train better practices.
With modern synthetic clothing not only does sleeping in your clothing provide extra warmth, but does the important job of chasing residual moisture out so you wake up with nice dry layers ready to face the day without the need to change. In the last few years I've even started to commit the ultimate heresy of not even bothering to change my socks for multiday trips; with a good sleep system they are dry every morning.
I never heard that in the entire time i was in the Marine Corps. But i did hear it alot on the survival forums. Like alot of dudes arguing that it was somehow a proven fact. Lmao.
Quote from: Moab on August 11, 2021, 11:44:02 PM
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 11, 2021, 09:46:16 PM
The "sleep naked" thing I hear most often from Marines, so I tend to blame them for starting it. My theory is they (like most militaries) still wear cotton heavy clothes (50% currently) and don't trust their people to be able to tell when their clothes are too wet to sleep in so decided to lowest-common-denominator their sleeping instructions rather than try to train better practices.
With modern synthetic clothing not only does sleeping in your clothing provide extra warmth, but does the important job of chasing residual moisture out so you wake up with nice dry layers ready to face the day without the need to change. In the last few years I've even started to commit the ultimate heresy of not even bothering to change my socks for multiday trips; with a good sleep system they are dry every morning.
I never heard that in the entire time i was in the Marine Corps. But i did hear it alot on the survival forums. Like alot of dudes arguing that it was somehow a proven fact. Lmao.
a USMC buddy of mine claims the Corps' favorite saying is "Travel light; freeze at night." :shades:
Quote from: Tony D Tiger on August 12, 2021, 07:39:55 AM
Quote from: Moab on August 11, 2021, 11:44:02 PM
Quote from: RonnyRonin on August 11, 2021, 09:46:16 PM
The "sleep naked" thing I hear most often from Marines, so I tend to blame them for starting it. My theory is they (like most militaries) still wear cotton heavy clothes (50% currently) and don't trust their people to be able to tell when their clothes are too wet to sleep in so decided to lowest-common-denominator their sleeping instructions rather than try to train better practices.
With modern synthetic clothing not only does sleeping in your clothing provide extra warmth, but does the important job of chasing residual moisture out so you wake up with nice dry layers ready to face the day without the need to change. In the last few years I've even started to commit the ultimate heresy of not even bothering to change my socks for multiday trips; with a good sleep system they are dry every morning.
I never heard that in the entire time i was in the Marine Corps. But i did hear it alot on the survival forums. Like alot of dudes arguing that it was somehow a proven fact. Lmao.
a USMC buddy of mine claims the Corps' favorite saying is "Travel light; freeze at night." :shades:
When i went thru cold weather training at Bridgeport CA. We had no choice but to carry heavy shit. I think that old canvas down bag probably weighed 20lbs! And our wool 20 more.
I think if they measured jarheads thighs in the 80s and compared them to today. They'd be about 6 inches larger around. Lol.
The funny part was anyone with a large alice pack was considered a baddass. I was in a STA platoon. Sort of recon on the battalion level. So we got a choice of gear. But really they just carried more crap. And were more miserable. ;)
Looking back now. All of our gear was crap. We had cast iron pot bellied stoves in our main tents at basecamp. Had to steal extra axes from supply to cut wood. We humped in mickey mouse boots. And carried canvas shelter halves with wooden tent stakes. And jute cord to put them up with.
Maybe im mistaken and i served during the the revolutionary war. Lol. ;) did they have snow caves at valley forge?
But at 13,000ft it was the hardest hiking ive ever done. With the most amount of weight.
Thought i would add this here. Since we already have an mss thread.
I was perusing ebay and found this auction.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/USGI-Military-4-Piece-Modular-Sleep-System-MSS-Woodland-BDU-Camo-Bivy-Bag-VGC-/175244197237?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Wth?! Have they really gotten that scarce? $300 for an mss? And those are actual bids not an asking price. Coukd be shill bids. But I did not take the time to search the internet for mss prices. But that seems crazy to me. You could get a way better bag and bivy for that much.
I was actually looking for a couple more mss bivys. Those are still reasonable. $39. I can't think of a better bivy for that price. They are heavier than commercial I'm sure. But no where as bombproof. And not for $39.
Quote from: Moab on April 22, 2022, 02:21:19 PMThought i would add this here. Since we already have an mss thread.
I was perusing ebay and found this auction.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/USGI-Military-4-Piece-Modular-Sleep-System-MSS-Woodland-BDU-Camo-Bivy-Bag-VGC-/175244197237?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Wth?! Have they really gotten that scarce? $300 for an mss? And those are actual bids not an asking price. Coukd be shill bids. But I did not take the time to search the internet for mss prices. But that seems crazy to me. You could get a way better bag and bivy for that much.
I was actually looking for a couple more mss bivys. Those are still reasonable. $39. I can't think of a better bivy for that price. They are heavier than commercial I'm sure. But no where as bombproof. And not for $39.
Damn, the start price on that was $250... wtf!?
Do a search for "usgi mss sleep system". We should have invested when these were $100 five years ago. Wtf?! They are at $300 everywhere.
Quote from: Moab on April 22, 2022, 08:17:04 PMDo a search for "usgi mss sleep system". We should have invested when these were $100 five years ago. Wtf?! They are at $300 everywhere.
Right, it makes me want to sell what I have to fund something else. LOL
Quote from: Nyte on April 23, 2022, 09:35:19 AMQuote from: Moab on April 22, 2022, 08:17:04 PMDo a search for "usgi mss sleep system". We should have invested when these were $100 five years ago. Wtf?! They are at $300 everywhere.
Right, it makes me want to sell what I have to fund something else. LOL
You should. Its a terrible system as heavy as it is. Buy a dridown bag and an mss bivy. You'll have money left over to finance something else.