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Offline NT2C

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Optics Chat
« on: August 07, 2021, 05:55:25 PM »
So my Holosun HE503CU-GR got here three days early.  Okay, I bumped the UPS shipping from "SurePost" to regular ground but up until last night it was still showing as scheduled for delivery Tuesday the 10th. 

I took the Dagger Defense RDS off my AR and installed the Holosun as far forward on the rail as possible, just ahead of the receiver, and it's working nice there.  I can co-witness my BU iron sights perfectly and it's far enough forward that I can pick it up easily with my non-dominant right eye.  Yeah, I'm a right-handed guy who is left-eye dominant.  RDS have always been my preferred sights but I've had issues picking them up with the right eye, and I'm completely inept at shooting lefty.  Using a green sight helps and this one is perfect.  Makes me wonder how the gold dot one is.
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Offline Lodewijk

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2021, 06:32:54 PM »
Getting ready to throw down on a T2... Spuhr or LaRue?

Offline NT2C

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2021, 06:50:38 PM »
Getting ready to throw down on a T2... Spuhr or LaRue?
Spuhr.  No reason other than personal preference.
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Offline 12_Gauge_Chimp

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2021, 06:53:09 PM »
I picked up a Crimson Trace CTS-25 a few months back and it's currently sitting on my PC9.

I've got a couple minor complaints about it. One being the optic is just slightly canted to the left a bit (doesn't effect function, but it's kind of annoying to look through the lenses and see the optic canted to the left) and the field of view* is kind of small. Especially when the laser emitter sticks out a bit into my line of sight.

I know it's a micro red dot, but it's about the same size as my Bushnell TRS-25 and the field of view* on the TRS-25 is much wider.

It's a good optic despite the minor issues I've had with it.

*I'm not sure what the actual term is. Objective lens ? Viewing hole ?

Offline RonnyRonin

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2021, 02:55:27 PM »
I've been casually considering the new Vortex 5x prism scope:



The FOV is considerably less than the benchmark 4x ACOG, but the eyebox is also larger and the price of course is considerably less. I don't find 3x to be terribly useful for me so most of the new cheaper prism scopes on the market haven't been very enticing but this one has a high enough magnification and a low enough weight that its a maybe for me. The ebay price is starting to drop below $400, and if it hits $300 I might start thinking more seriously.

The weight is the same as most of the new crop of 3x RDS magnifiers coming out at 10ish oz (like the holosun 3x lots of people are running these days) so a 5x prism with an offset or piggyback RDS would weigh the same but with more magnification and no moving parts (also a more complex reticle and likely more light transmission). I am a bit peeved at the piggyback footprint they chose for this, as I have no interest in any current optic that fits it so an offset holosun 503 is most likely for myself. Having two separate optics rather than an optic/magnifier combo also gives more redundancy, and an etched reticle in case of battery failure (or two battery failures in this case).

Other than the usual problems with having an offset optic, can anyone shoot any holes in this plan? I've mocked it up someone loosely with a traditional tube scope and a cheapo offset mount but have very little trigger time with it so the above thought process is mostly hypothetical.
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Offline Lodewijk

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2021, 10:54:46 AM »
I've been casually considering the new Vortex 5x prism scope:



The FOV is considerably less than the benchmark 4x ACOG, but the eyebox is also larger and the price of course is considerably less. I don't find 3x to be terribly useful for me so most of the new cheaper prism scopes on the market haven't been very enticing but this one has a high enough magnification and a low enough weight that its a maybe for me. The ebay price is starting to drop below $400, and if it hits $300 I might start thinking more seriously.

The weight is the same as most of the new crop of 3x RDS magnifiers coming out at 10ish oz (like the holosun 3x lots of people are running these days) so a 5x prism with an offset or piggyback RDS would weigh the same but with more magnification and no moving parts (also a more complex reticle and likely more light transmission). I am a bit peeved at the piggyback footprint they chose for this, as I have no interest in any current optic that fits it so an offset holosun 503 is most likely for myself. Having two separate optics rather than an optic/magnifier combo also gives more redundancy, and an etched reticle in case of battery failure (or two battery failures in this case).

Other than the usual problems with having an offset optic, can anyone shoot any holes in this plan? I've mocked it up someone loosely with a traditional tube scope and a cheapo offset mount but have very little trigger time with it so the above thought process is mostly hypothetical.

What's the end use? And the all-in price for that is what, like $600-$700? Napkin math but $400 for the prism, $200 for the Holosun, plus tax & shipping gets you close.

Personally, I think "rounds to $1K in a thousands view" is enough total expense to at least ask yourself about getting get creative, squeezing out more money, and buying an ACOG if that's what you want but can't justify cost on (since you referenced it).

I am in the "if Trijicon/Aimpoint is the general idea, it's also probably the answer" camp though.

Offline RonnyRonin

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2021, 08:15:59 PM »

What's the end use? And the all-in price for that is what, like $600-$700? Napkin math but $400 for the prism, $200 for the Holosun, plus tax & shipping gets you close.

Personally, I think "rounds to $1K in a thousands view" is enough total expense to at least ask yourself about getting get creative, squeezing out more money, and buying an ACOG if that's what you want but can't justify cost on (since you referenced it).

I am in the "if Trijicon/Aimpoint is the general idea, it's also probably the answer" camp though.

Basically I want 1X and 4X (minimum, 6X would be preferred) on the same gun and to my eyes this is a better way to achieve that than either an LPVO or an RDS+magnifier, but I don't know many people doing something similar so I'm curious if there are any issues with the combination that I'm overlooking. In general my question would be the same if the combination was an ACOG and an offset T1, unless someone knows of a specific issue with the vortex but I assume its a bit to soon to say.

I've owned an ACOG in the past and likely won't again, I have a few aimpoints and probably won't get more for quite some time, and I have several holosuns already so that's not really part of the question at this point.
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Offline Lodewijk

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2021, 08:12:52 AM »

What's the end use? And the all-in price for that is what, like $600-$700? Napkin math but $400 for the prism, $200 for the Holosun, plus tax & shipping gets you close.

Personally, I think "rounds to $1K in a thousands view" is enough total expense to at least ask yourself about getting get creative, squeezing out more money, and buying an ACOG if that's what you want but can't justify cost on (since you referenced it).

I am in the "if Trijicon/Aimpoint is the general idea, it's also probably the answer" camp though.

Basically I want 1X and 4X (minimum, 6X would be preferred) on the same gun and to my eyes this is a better way to achieve that than either an LPVO or an RDS+magnifier, but I don't know many people doing something similar so I'm curious if there are any issues with the combination that I'm overlooking. In general my question would be the same if the combination was an ACOG and an offset T1, unless someone knows of a specific issue with the vortex but I assume its a bit to soon to say.

I've owned an ACOG in the past and likely won't again, I have a few aimpoints and probably won't get more for quite some time, and I have several holosuns already so that's not really part of the question at this point.

Oh, makes sense.

Not to ask a stupid question but why not just an LPVO and an offset microdot? It sounds like you're replicating the old HAMR with a fatter secondary.

Offline RonnyRonin

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2021, 06:02:38 PM »

Not to ask a stupid question but why not just an LPVO and an offset microdot? It sounds like you're replicating the old HAMR with a fatter secondary.

From what I can see most LPVOs are heavier, more expensive, take up more space on the gun, and have a smaller objective (than the prism in question). I've ranted about this in a few spots but I can't understand the trend of an LPVO/RDS combo; if you have a 1X in the form of the RDS you might as well go to a 2-7 or a 3-9 or something with a larger objective that is likely much more affordable. The tiny objective on (nearly) all LPVOs is to accommodate the lowest end of the magnification, which is precisely the end you don't need if you have an RDS which is better in every way at 1X.

Is there some advantage to an LPVO/RDS combo I'm missing? As popular as they are I'm suspicious I am missing something but for the life of me I can't find it (other than they look cooler than a traditional scope of course).

If the prism scope turns out to be junk my plan B is a low power traditional scope, probably a leupold in the aforementioned 2-7 or 3-9 range; it would be slightly heavier and more of a hassle to mount, but a smidge cheaper at the same time.
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Offline Mr. E. Monkey

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2021, 10:50:35 AM »
Is there some advantage to an LPVO/RDS combo I'm missing? As popular as they are I'm suspicious I am missing something but for the life of me I can't find it (other than they look cooler than a traditional scope of course).
Looking cool is essential, after all...  :greenguy:


Best bit of info I can find on running the LPVO/offset RDS is from Kevin Owens (former spec ops guy) here: 



That said, I suppose you could apply some of that reasoning to a more traditional scope (with a fairly smallish objective lense) in a 2-7x or 3-9x, maybe. 




Personally, I like the LPVO, because while it is true that it's not as good as a RDS or prism at 1x, you do get the etched reticle, like the prism, plus some magnification range.  It's a jack-of-all-trades optic.  If I don't know what kind of situation I'm going to be needing a rifle in, I want one that can do it all at least passably.  Beyond that, my eyes don't like red dots anymore, and a little bit of magnification is nice for anything beyond cqb.  I know, I should wear glasses, but I'm a stubborn ass like that.   :awesome:
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Offline RonnyRonin

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2021, 07:55:48 PM »

Best bit of info I can find on running the LPVO/offset RDS is from Kevin Owens (former spec ops guy) here: 

That said, I suppose you could apply some of that reasoning to a more traditional scope (with a fairly smallish objective lense) in a 2-7x or 3-9x, maybe. 


That was one of the first videos that put me down this rabbit hole; I couldn't find anything he said that really explained why he chose an LPVO (as opposed to a scope with a higher bottom end), and in fact if I recall he expressly said he was leaving it on a higher power and not using it as an LPVO at all.

I of course understand the appeal of an LPVO by itself, it's only in the context of the combo that it makes less sense to me.
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Offline Lodewijk

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2021, 07:19:10 AM »

That was one of the first videos that put me down this rabbit hole; I couldn't find anything he said that really explained why he chose an LPVO (as opposed to a scope with a higher bottom end), and in fact if I recall he expressly said he was leaving it on a higher power and not using it as an LPVO at all.

I of course understand the appeal of an LPVO by itself, it's only in the context of the combo that it makes less sense to me.

There's also a dimension related to using NODs, supposedly. Something about being less hassle to pick up the red dot than an LPVO at 1x.

I am not experienced at all in this area, so that's just what I have been told.

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2021, 08:53:48 AM »
That was one of the first videos that put me down this rabbit hole; I couldn't find anything he said that really explained why he chose an LPVO (as opposed to a scope with a higher bottom end), and in fact if I recall he expressly said he was leaving it on a higher power and not using it as an LPVO at all.

I of course understand the appeal of an LPVO by itself, it's only in the context of the combo that it makes less sense to me.
I think I get where you're coming from a little better now. 


I would figure that the main advantage of an LPVO in that case is that if your RDS breaks, falls off, whatever, you still have a 1x capable optic for CQB.  Less ideal than a 1x prism or RDS, for sure, but still workable.  But really, I'm pretty much just guessing at this point.  I suppose you could make the argument that you only need a LPVO for 5.56, and that a higher power scope would be overkill, but that depends on your eyes, and your opinion, I think.   :)


In that regard, aside from possibly a large objective end getting in the way of the RDS, I don't see much of a reason why it wouldn't be workable to run a higher-power scope with a RDS.  A good RDS in a good mount should drastically reduce the likelihood of being forced to use the scope for close-in work, so...?
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Offline 12_Gauge_Chimp

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2021, 03:47:32 PM »
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?

Red dot or a prism ?

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2021, 05:08:01 PM »
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?

Red dot or a prism ?

For astigmatism: prism or a conventional riflescope.

For eye injury / not astigmatism... no idea.

Offline 12_Gauge_Chimp

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2021, 05:38:03 PM »
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?

Red dot or a prism ?

For astigmatism: prism or a conventional riflescope.

For eye injury / not astigmatism... no idea.

I've got astigmatism and most red dots are a bit blurry for me. On my AR, if I look through the rear peep sight, the dot is crisp and clear. Without the rear sight, the dot is blurry and kind of star shaped.

So it looks like either I get Lasik and fix my vision that way (which it is something I have been thinking about.) or I pick up a prism optic and go from there.

Now I'm sitting here wondering if me getting accidentally sprayed in the face with carburetor cleaner when I was a kid played a part in my messed up eyesight as an adult.

Offline Raptor

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2021, 05:48:40 PM »
Which optic would be better suited for someone with blurry vision caused by either an eye injury or astigmatism?

Red dot or a prism ?

For astigmatism: prism or a conventional riflescope.

For eye injury / not astigmatism... no idea.

So it looks like either I get Lasik and fix my vision that way (which it is something I have been thinking about.) or I pick up a prism optic and go from there.

Now I'm sitting here wondering if me getting accidentally sprayed in the face with carburetor cleaner when I was a kid played a part in my messed up eyesight as an adult.

In January I managed to poke myself in the eye with a twig. I was wearing glasses but not the usual wrap around eye protection when I do work in the yard, because I had finished the task and just walking through bushes. The accident was a fluke and the twig was expertly placed to avoid my glasses. Hurt like hell and damaged the cornea.
It also damaged my vision to the point that I needed a new lens in the injured eye after it healed 2 months later.I now have the same issue with red dot scopes.

The good news is that it was not my dominant eye the bad news is that I use red dots with both eyes open and it kinda defeats the whole purpose of a red dot to use only one eye.

I was considering eye surgery to fix it but I was told to wait a while longer to see if the vision changes again with time.

If you damaged your eye years ago that advice may not apply but if you did so recently like me then get at least 2 assessments of what surgery can do and make sure you explain the issue to the MDs. I have found that when discussing issues with optics they often have no clue about a red dot vs a prism scope.

I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers.

As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2021, 08:59:18 PM »
I've also found explaining to the doctor you need it fixed in case of zombies or aliens doesn't go over well.

Telling them you want to travel and are concerned about issues in developing nations works much better.

But when it comes to astigmatism, the best optices are eyeglasses.  :awesome:
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Offline 12_Gauge_Chimp

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2021, 09:28:09 PM »
Raptor, I was about 8 or 9 when I got sprayed in the face with carburetor cleaner. The damage was minor and my mother was able to keep the cleaner from doing more damage by rinsing it off my face and away from my eyes.

I think what saved me from more harm was my mom's quick thinking and the fact I kind of had my eyes closed when I got sprayed. I don't remember my eyes being all the way open and I think I may have had my head at an angle when my neighbor accidentally hit the sprayer.

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Re: Optics Chat
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2021, 09:29:33 PM »
I've also found explaining to the doctor you need it fixed in case of zombies or aliens doesn't go over well.

Telling them you want to travel and are concerned about issues in developing nations works much better.

But when it comes to astigmatism, the best optices are eyeglasses.  :awesome:

That actually reminds me that I need to set up an appointment to get my eyes checked again. It's been a few years since my last eye exam.

Pretty sure my eye doctor is going to be disappointed with me on that one. :gonk:

 

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