Post-Postapocalypse Transportation

[Wasteland Charlie]

I have been reviewing the posts here about transportation. Most threads are about bugout vehicles. Fair enough, but what about long term transport?

I really don't see the world being taken back to the stone age technologically, because we have the concepts of water wheels, steam engines, windmills, etc. We don't have to conceive of that. Assuming the human population isn't brought down so far that we lose this info.

Still, it would seem probable that there would be a regression of technology. My thinking is late 18th Century level. This would make getting fuel for the family car impossible.

Elucidate if you will, what you think is the best transportation to prepare for in order to maximize your ability to travel and haul things say five years after the initial chaos has settled.

Foot power, horses, mules, electric vehicles, diesels running on vegetable oil, or whatever and why you think it's the best.

[MacWa77ace]

Five years is a good timeframe. You could get lucky with maintenance, fuel, batteries, and tires for the first five years. But pretty much all car batteries will be unusable after that. And any fuel with ethanol will start to get iffy.

I'd think that if you really prepare, and maybe have some dry car batteries [that will store indefinitely] that you can add acid to and then charge up when there is no power grid, you may be able to maintain a gas powered vehicle out to 10 years with no supporting infrastructure, totally self reliant for repairs, maintenance, fabrication, etc, and all the tools and fluids to back that up.

Electric vehicles have batteries and batteries have a lifespan. Other than simple 'golf' carts, the new road legal versions require a specialist to fix any issues, and usually parts that won't be available, so the first issue that keeps it from running will turn them into a yard decoration. Also assuming the electric grid would be down, you'd have to have the personal infrastructure to charge them. 

And rubber tires also have a lifespan, even when not used they can dry out and get brittle. 

Any animal powered transportation would take a lot of land to provide fuel [food], and food for horses has to be year round even during the winter when the grass is dead and covered with snow. Back in the 18th century you had to have a certain income and ability to maintain a horse or mule or ox. It's not like a large percentage of the population had them, even small or startup farmers aspired to get a horse or mule. Depending on your latitude your season for storing up winter food for these animals can be long or short.

I vaguely remember watching one Survival contest TV show where the family had a horse, and they were manually cutting grass for hay for about 4 hours a day and moving it into a drying/storing area all summer long to have food for the horse thru the winter months. They actually calculated the exact amount they needed, and then figured how much they had to collect each day, and knew if they were on track or behind. They had the land to have the grassy fields though. If you had the land and could maintain a tractor with a hay attachment and could keep it running then that would get easier.

For the most part I bet it'll be handcarts.

[tirls]

Bicycles.

My old crappy bike hasn't been serviced in 10 years and gets used at least once a week. I've had it since I was 10 and it's been used at least since my 50ish year old cousin was in highschool. Never oiled the chain, and only changed a tire twice and a couple of new breakpads.

Just get a replacement casette, two wheels, some breakpads and a couple of tubes as spares and you can keep it running for decades.

[eugenenine]

+1 human powered vehicles.
We moved to our current house in 2008 and I went on craigslist and looked for a used bicycle. Picked up a 1996 Specialized Rockhopper from a young guy who was moving to AZ, he worked at the same company that I did so we made the sale in the parking lot after work. I could tell he rode it on the local MTB trails from scratches on the bottom but that was fine, I planned on learning maintenance and riding on trails myself so I didn't ant to cry over the first scratch on an expensive new bike. Only thing he replaced was the saddle. I rode local paved trials with kinds in a seat and later a trail a bike and never had a problem. Finally around covid times I bought new tires, later a new chain, new grips, etc. I upgraded the brakes from cantilever to V brakes and replaced the brake levers and gear shifters when one of the shifters fell apart.
The original tires were still rideable after 25 years and the rest of the parts still usable after that even on mountain bike trails. I rode over 400 miles of mtb trials last year, 6 different trails in Ohio and one in WV.
I've replaced most of the maintenance parts on it and have my own set of tools comprehensive enough to do anything needed as well. I'm starting to stock up on spare parts now.
My original intent was to just ride to work and back as we moved real close to work but too many mercedes and bmw's tried to run me over but in a PAW I could defend myself. But now I ride the trails for exercise. I had to climb in out attic a while back and alnost launched myself through the roof not knowing my core strength had improved so much.

[NT2C]

Internal combustion engines can be made to run on just about anything that will burn, with the provision that I'm not talking about the LS-1 your neighbor installed in his golf cart last year.  A simple diesel can run on vegetable oil.  A gasoline engine can run on wood gas (as they did in Australia and other areas during WWII), or alcohol-based fuels and fuels like powdered coal.

No emissions controls and no computerized engine management system needed.

[eugenenine]

Where do you get the oil for the wood gas engine? It still needs lubed

[majorhavoc]

Bicycles.

My old crappy bike hasn't been serviced in 10 years and gets used at least once a week. I've had it since I was 10 and it's been used at least since my 50ish year old cousin was in highschool. Never oiled the chain, and only changed a tire twice and a couple of new breakpads.

Just get a replacement casette, two wheels, some breakpads and a couple of tubes as spares and you can keep it running for decades.

^ This.

[MacWa77ace]

The original tires were still rideable after 25 years and the rest of the parts still usable after that even on mountain bike trails. I rode over 400 miles of mtb trials last year, 6 different trails in Ohio and one in WV.

Must have to do with the climate in your AO. I've lived in Florida all my life and Bike tires and car tires just don't last if you don't wear them out from use first, they die from old age in less than 12 years. Summer heat I guess. Might be quality. Tires from 25 or 50 years ago might be made better than the tires made today. But I remember the BMX tires that were new when I was in 6th grade being all cracked on the sides and me replacing them in highschool. Kept that bike in a tool shed though, which got really hot in the summers. 

youtu.be/TjBGLJOInGA?si=6VBKiI1vB8-cAAvx&t=127
youtu.be/TjBGLJOInGA?si=6VBKiI1vB8-cAAvx&t=127

[NT2C]

Where do you get the oil for the wood gas engine? It still needs lubed

Wherever you find it.  The landscape is going to be littered with vehicles that still have oil in their crankcases even if they have no fuel.  It's not like you'll be following the manufacturer's recommended service intervals on that engine.  Any oil you can find that still lubricates will be good enough. These engines are going to be inefficient, sloppy, worn, and have pretty loose tolerances.

[eugenenine]

Must have to do with the climate in your AO. I've lived in Florida all my life and Bike tires and car tires just don't last if you don't wear them out from use first, they die from old age in less than 12 years. Summer heat I guess.

youtu.be/TjBGLJOInGA?si=6VBKiI1vB8-cAAvx&t=127
youtu.be/TjBGLJOInGA?si=6VBKiI1vB8-cAAvx&t=127

car tires yes, they rot quick, but my bike is stored inside when I'm not riding it, that makes a difference. tires with the sun shining down on them do rot quicker.

[tirls]

Didn't mythbusters do something with driving a diesel with oil? Making Rapeseed oil isn't difficult.

We can't even get our car running smoothly for more than 3 month with professional help.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

The US military used to have (or may still have, not sure. Been a few years since I checked) multi fuel engines on their big Deuce and a Half 6x6 trucks that ran on damn near anything.

I actually seriously considered buying one a few years back, but ended up not because I lived in an apartment at the time.

[EBuff75]

Didn't mythbusters do something with driving a diesel with oil? Making Rapeseed oil isn't difficult.

We can't even get our car running smoothly for more than 3 month with professional help.

Not sure about Mythbusters, but I know that Top Gear had an episode where they planted rapeseed, with the goal of harvesting it for the oil.  Later, they had an episode where it had been harvested and processed to produce diesel, which they then used to enter a 24hr race, using a BMW 330d.  

Of course, the likelihood that the actual diesel fuel that they used for the race car was produced from the crop that they planted was nil.  But yes, it is possible to plant rapeseed, harvest it, process it, and end up with biodiesel.

[Wasteland Charlie]

Internal combustion engines can be made to run on just about anything that will burn, with the provision that I'm not talking about the LS-1 your neighbor installed in his golf cart last year.  A simple diesel can run on vegetable oil.  A gasoline engine can run on wood gas (as they did in Australia and other areas during WWII), or alcohol-based fuels and fuels like powdered coal.

No emissions controls and no computerized engine management system needed.

I actually have a booklet from the 80s/90s somewhere printed by FEMA or someone showing detailed plans on how to build a woodsmoke gasifier for an engine. This booklet was printed back when the US government still printed free materials for people. I was going g to scan it and post it on the old ZS forum, but I never did.

[EBuff75]

Internal combustion engines can be made to run on just about anything that will burn, with the provision that I'm not talking about the LS-1 your neighbor installed in his golf cart last year.  A simple diesel can run on vegetable oil.  A gasoline engine can run on wood gas (as they did in Australia and other areas during WWII), or alcohol-based fuels and fuels like powdered coal.

No emissions controls and no computerized engine management system needed.

I actually have a booklet from the 80s/90s somewhere printed by FEMA or someone showing detailed plans on how to build a woodsmoke gasifier for an engine. This booklet was printed back when the US government still printed free materials for people. I was going g to scan it and post it on the old ZS forum, but I never did.

Engineer775 did a whole series of videos on his YouTube channel about wood gasification and that truck that was in the first episode of Doomsday Preppers.  It doesn't look like he's posted any updates on it in 10 years now, but there is still a playlist of them on his channel. 

Is this the booklet you're referencing:  https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/0302hsted/fema.woodgas.pdf

[Wasteland Charlie]

Internal combustion engines can be made to run on just about anything that will burn, with the provision that I'm not talking about the LS-1 your neighbor installed in his golf cart last year.  A simple diesel can run on vegetable oil.  A gasoline engine can run on wood gas (as they did in Australia and other areas during WWII), or alcohol-based fuels and fuels like powdered coal.

No emissions controls and no computerized engine management system needed.

I actually have a booklet from the 80s/90s somewhere printed by FEMA or someone showing detailed plans on how to build a woodsmoke gasifier for an engine. This booklet was printed back when the US government still printed free materials for people. I was going g to scan it and post it on the old ZS forum, but I never did.

Engineer775 did a whole series of videos on his YouTube channel about wood gasification and that truck that was in the first episode of Doomsday Preppers.  It doesn't look like he's posted any updates on it in 10 years now, but there is still a playlist of them on his channel. 

Is this the booklet you're referencing:  https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/0302hsted/fema.woodgas.pdf

Yeah, that's the book.

[tirls]

[tirls]

They did say it was "busted" since they were testing it as an economical alternative to regular gasoline. But the car ran just fine.

I've got some building plans for a full sized steam engine somewhere at my parents house if you want.