2nd line (combat load) theory and discussion

Started by RonnyRonin, June 27, 2021, 10:03:20 AM

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flybynight

This could actually  be it's own thread. Long range precision bolt  rifle load out for patrol and hunting.
"Hey idiot, you should feel your pulse, not see it."  Echo 83

Lodewijk

Agree - I'll write it up once I have enough junk assembled to warrant an OP.

(unless someone else does it first)

MacWa77ace

The power went out at my house for a couple of hours yesterday so I did a dry run to see how long it takes to 'gear up' in my 2nd line. [plus I was watching war movies since Sunday night which musta gotten me in the mood.]

I put on most of my 2nd line stuff, timed it and weighed myself. And also to get my new[ish] WPS rifle sling dialed in for fit while wearing plates and mark it. [different for w/ or w/out plates, as its not a quick adjust sling]


Rifle
Pistol w/ taclight and Safari QD ALS Holster
Battlebelt w/ 2 pistol 1 rifle mag pouch
LBR w/ 6 rifle mag pouches and 4 pistol mag pouches
Lvl 3+ 14" w/ carrier
8 rifle mags total including in the rifle
7 pistol mags total including in the pistol

= about 60lbs based on bathroom scale accuracy

And when I said most, that's not including hydration [~7lbs full] , fixed blade, MUT, HT radio, and TCCC IFACK [of which =~2.5lbs]. that would be about 70lbs total with all that added.

Right now I'm running LBR and plate carrier separate but they can be combined as one as they are modular to each other, which that change doesn't really affect the weight at all, only reducing by an X harness on the LBR. And wearing the LBR w/out plates happens more than with. I can and will probably get a separate setup for pouches that will be dedicated to the plate carrier, but that's about $175 more worth of gear for my preferred setup.

It'd been a while since I'd been in the plates, and after donning, just futzed around for a while wearing all of it including the firearms and mags. And weirdly, when I took off the LBR when I was done, I thought the plates felt really light after that. Like swinging a bat with weights on it I guess. But I didn't think the LBR weighed that much compared to the 22lb worth of plates. I didn't weigh anything separately.

The weight is not that bad for me, and everything seems balanced. It'd be more balanced with hydration on my back. I'll tell you, if I fell from a second story or had to jump down from over 6 ft that would hurt wearing this stuff. Even just diving for cover sometimes the top of the front plate hits my chin. So no Commander Taggert cartwheels.


Lifetime gamer watch at MacWa77ace YouTube Channel

Ask me about my Fully Semi-Automatic 30-Mag clip death gun that's as heavy as 10 boxes.


Optimist

Many years ago I bought two LBV88s for $15 each and a woodland FLC for $10. Also some woodland double mag pouches and triple mag shingles and ALICE triple mag pouches, all for $1-5 a piece.

It's funny that when I bought them woodland and ALICE were out of style and the cheaper options. I was ordering a bunch of other surplus stuff and I thought "this doesn't seem that important, but I'll probably never see such cheap prices again and it's better to have it and not need it, etc." Now the other day I decided to check prices on things and it's funny that woodland and ALICE stuff seems to have become retro and cool and gone way up in price while that ugly greyish digital camo (ACU?) is actually cheaper than the stuff I bought years ago when inflation is taken into account.

When I got it I felt that I was being a little tinfoil hat, but since it cost so little it was fine to indulge in a bit of paranoia. Since then I've slowly changed my mind, and I think second line gear is more sensible than I once thought it was.

I've mostly got Step 1 on MacWa77ace's procedure done. Now I've got to start going through the next steps. One thing I'm lacking in is very many pouches, as my brother hijacked all my double mag pouches to use as beer holders on the Hellcat backpack I put together for him, and I gave away all but one of my ALICE mag pouches stuffed full of magazines as Christmas presents. I'll need to dig through my bins of junk to see what I've actually got, but I figure I can start experimenting before I buy much of anything. I've been getting back into snowshoeing and adding a little LARPing could be fun. (I'm not using LARPing in a derogatory sense.)

I might pick up some more surplus on eBay to give out to others. I know several people with guns that don't seem to have any of this type of gear (that I know of). I've been seeing stuff for super cheap, and I could probably put together a few FLCs with a few pouches each for ~$15 a piece and partially solve my lack of pouches at the same time.

Moab

Quote from: Optimist on November 29, 2022, 06:43:10 PMMany years ago I bought two LBV88s for $15 each and a woodland FLC for $10. Also some woodland double mag pouches and triple mag shingles and ALICE triple mag pouches, all for $1-5 a piece.

It's funny that when I bought them woodland and ALICE were out of style and the cheaper options. I was ordering a bunch of other surplus stuff and I thought "this doesn't seem that important, but I'll probably never see such cheap prices again and it's better to have it and not need it, etc." Now the other day I decided to check prices on things and it's funny that woodland and ALICE stuff seems to have become retro and cool and gone way up in price while that ugly greyish digital camo (ACU?) is actually cheaper than the stuff I bought years ago when inflation is taken into account.

When I got it I felt that I was being a little tinfoil hat, but since it cost so little it was fine to indulge in a bit of paranoia. Since then I've slowly changed my mind, and I think second line gear is more sensible than I once thought it was.

I've mostly got Step 1 on MacWa77ace's procedure done. Now I've got to start going through the next steps. One thing I'm lacking in is very many pouches, as my brother hijacked all my double mag pouches to use as beer holders on the Hellcat backpack I put together for him, and I gave away all but one of my ALICE mag pouches stuffed full of magazines as Christmas presents. I'll need to dig through my bins of junk to see what I've actually got, but I figure I can start experimenting before I buy much of anything. I've been getting back into snowshoeing and adding a little LARPing could be fun. (I'm not using LARPing in a derogatory sense.)

I might pick up some more surplus on eBay to give out to others. I know several people with guns that don't seem to have any of this type of gear (that I know of). I've been seeing stuff for super cheap, and I could probably put together a few FLCs with a few pouches each for ~$15 a piece and partially solve my lack of pouches at the same time.

I recall that period of time as well. When woodland and alice was cheap and acu was on the budget highside.

I think what happened is everyone figured out acu was a terrible camo pattern. That woodland worked in a large swath of america. And was cheap. But then the army switched to multicam. A superior pattern and product designs. Which made the army dump a huge amount of acu on the surplus market. While woodland started running out. Remember when you could find a woodland mss for $100? Not anymore! $200 at least. And now an alice pack runs you a $100!

Also commercial packs in camo and subdued tones became more plentiful and lighter. As well as all sorts of camo and subdued gear.

If you're concerned about camo. You can now find lightweight commercial packs in multicam and most everything else you need in surplus multicam. Its not the cheapest. But its coming down. And at least its all the same pattern.

I think the cheap sweetspot these days. Although it will be far from the lightest is dyeing acu gear. If I had a large family or group to gear up. Its hard to beat outfitting everyone in acu. And dyeing it all with RIT dye. Its a very effective multishade of dirty green. If you use the right dye color. 

But I think the sweetspot overall is multicam. Again if you're concerned about hiding from other people. A mix of commercial and surplus multicam gets you in a medium to lower price point. And the gear and clothing options are endless. Its really the only camo pattern you can find your entire kit in these days.

I won't go into sniper detail. But there is a reason the militaries around the world try to outfit everyone in the same pattern. And your best served by copying that. If you want to effectively stay hidden. 

Lastly, I would even say woodland is a superior pattern in most of the northern us. But good luck finding everything you need, in modern designs, in woodland. And some stuff just isn't available anymore. 
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

RoneKiln

Woodland is awesome in my region and I miserably failed to appreciate the opportunities to get good solid gear for near nothing from surplus stores in my youth. 
"Seriously the most dangerous thing you are likely to do is to put salt on a Big Mac right before you eat it and to climb into your car."
--Raptor

12_Gauge_Chimp

I've actually thought about switching my gear from coyote tan to Multicam since Multicam seems to be the more plentiful camo pattern.

Only other fighting gear I've got is in Mall Ninja Black and that's being reserved for my back up set ups (namely for my AR and G17. Main rig is set up for my AK and G21.).

Optimist

Quote from: MoabI think what happened is everyone figured out acu was a terrible camo pattern. That woodland worked in a large swath of america. And was cheap. But then the army switched to multicam. A superior pattern and product designs. Which made the army dump a huge amount of acu on the surplus market. While woodland started running out. Remember when you could find a woodland mss for $100? Not anymore! $200 at least. And now an alice pack runs you a $100!
Wow, I've bought three large alice packs with frames over the years, two of which were $5 a piece and one was $15.  :eek1:

QuoteI won't go into sniper detail. But there is a reason the militaries around the world try to outfit everyone in the same pattern. And your best served by copying that. If you want to effectively stay hidden.
Is that because having non-matching camo colors tends to draw attention, or because they want to have identifiable patterns to avoid friendly fire?

I ordered a couple ranger green Esstac Kywi belt pouches. I wanted to make sure they held up in really cold weather before buying any more and also I thought it would be good to see how the color worked in real life. I think OD would be really good here in the summer but in the winter the only green thing is dark green spruce needles.

I think your suggestion of RIT dying the gear is probably the best thing for me to do since I have such a hodgepodge of stuff already and I don't want to spend too much money on this stuff. (Those two single magazine Esstac pouches cost more than all the LBE stuff and pouches I bought previously combined, it was kind of shocking.) Do you know how reflective RIT dye is under IR light? Seems like night vision is becoming more and more of a concern.

I've been thinking about it and I think the ACU/UCP might actually not be terrible in the winter here as most everything that is not white and dark green is some shade of gray.

I wonder if we should start a camouflage thread? It's not high on my list of practical concerns but it's something I find interesting, especially after I spent some time researching it related to painting models.

MacWa77ace

Quote from: Optimist on December 05, 2022, 07:58:01 PM
Quote from: MoabI think what happened is everyone figured out acu was a terrible camo pattern. That woodland worked in a large swath of america. And was cheap. But then the army switched to multicam. A superior pattern and product designs. Which made the army dump a huge amount of acu on the surplus market. While woodland started running out. Remember when you could find a woodland mss for $100? Not anymore! $200 at least. And now an alice pack runs you a $100!
Wow, I've bought three large alice packs with frames over the years, two of which were $5 a piece and one was $15.  :eek1:

QuoteI won't go into sniper detail. But there is a reason the militaries around the world try to outfit everyone in the same pattern. And your best served by copying that. If you want to effectively stay hidden.
Is that because having non-matching camo colors tends to draw attention, or because they want to have identifiable patterns to avoid friendly fire?

I ordered a couple ranger green Esstac Kywi belt pouches. I wanted to make sure they held up in really cold weather before buying any more and also I thought it would be good to see how the color worked in real life. I think OD would be really good here in the summer but in the winter the only green thing is dark green spruce needles.

I think your suggestion of RIT dying the gear is probably the best thing for me to do since I have such a hodgepodge of stuff already and I don't want to spend too much money on this stuff. (Those two single magazine Esstac pouches cost more than all the LBE stuff and pouches I bought previously combined, it was kind of shocking.) Do you know how reflective RIT dye is under IR light? Seems like night vision is becoming more and more of a concern.

I've been thinking about it and I think the ACU/UCP might actually not be terrible in the winter here as most everything that is not white and dark green is some shade of gray.

I wonder if we should start a camouflage thread? It's not high on my list of practical concerns but it's something I find interesting, especially after I spent some time researching it related to painting models.

Some of the Esstac belt clips say they work well in subzero and high temps. But I couldn't find where it said that for the mag pouches' inserts. I'm interested in your test results although I don't think I'll ever be in sub freezing climes in my AO. When you said that, I thought about putting them in our 0 degree freezer but then decided not to have to explain why there are mag pouches in there. LOL. Maybe just the inserts in a ziplock with some strawberries as cammo.

How are you using the pistol mags on your belt? 1.5" is kinda narrow for a belt used outside the beltloops of your pants. Are you running the belt thru your beltloops?

I got the 2" clips for a two inch belt, but the way the clips go on there is going to be a point where they aren't secure. I don't think that would be going from 1.75" to 1.5" though. May just be a little loose.

Lifetime gamer watch at MacWa77ace YouTube Channel

Ask me about my Fully Semi-Automatic 30-Mag clip death gun that's as heavy as 10 boxes.


Optimist

Quote from: MacWa77aceHow are you using the pistol mags on your belt? 1.5" is kinda narrow for a belt used outside the beltloops of your pants. Are you running the belt thru your beltloops?

I got the 2" clips for a two inch belt, but the way the clips go on there is going to be a point where they aren't secure. I don't think that would be going from 1.75" to 1.5" though. May just be a little loose.
I'm planning to use them on a 1.5" belt. My everyday belt that I run through the belt loops on my pants. I'm hoping the 1.75" attachments fit without being too loose, as many companies don't seem to make modern pouches for 1.5" belts.

It might be worth me getting a 1.75" belt, but one consideration is that most of my friends and family have normal belts and I wouldn't be able to share pouches with them if the 1.75" clips don't fit.

I should mention that these belt pouches are first-line gear. I'm willing to spend more money on that as I figure it is more likely to be useful.

I want to know if the kydex inserts will break in cold weather, but I imagine that these will most likely be close to my body and if it's really cold they'll be covered by a jacket and/or I won't be wearing a pants belt at all.

I know there are a bunch of Alaskans that like belt setups for second-line gear as they can add or remove layers without having to take the belt off and without covering everything up and making it inaccessible. I might have to look into experimenting with that, especially as I'm interested in figuring out a pulk sled setup.

MacWa77ace

Quote from: Optimist on December 06, 2022, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: MacWa77aceHow are you using the pistol mags on your belt? 1.5" is kinda narrow for a belt used outside the beltloops of your pants. Are you running the belt thru your beltloops?

I got the 2" clips for a two inch belt, but the way the clips go on there is going to be a point where they aren't secure. I don't think that would be going from 1.75" to 1.5" though. May just be a little loose.
I'm planning to use them on a 1.5" belt. My everyday belt that I run through the belt loops on my pants. I'm hoping the 1.75" attachments fit without being too loose, as many companies don't seem to make modern pouches for 1.5" belts.

It might be worth me getting a 1.75" belt, but one consideration is that most of my friends and family have normal belts and I wouldn't be able to share pouches with them if the 1.75" clips don't fit.

I should mention that these belt pouches are first-line gear. I'm willing to spend more money on that as I figure it is more likely to be useful.

I want to know if the kydex inserts will break in cold weather, but I imagine that these will most likely be close to my body and if it's really cold they'll be covered by a jacket and/or I won't be wearing a pants belt at all.

I know there are a bunch of Alaskans that like belt setups for second-line gear as they can add or remove layers without having to take the belt off and without covering everything up and making it inaccessible. I might have to look into experimenting with that, especially as I'm interested in figuring out a pulk sled setup.

I don't think I'd've thought of using Esstacs as first line, on body, mag holders. There's a bunch of kydex belt holsters that work for smaller belts and are even belt thickness adjustable. I even have a double mag set that has a 'paddle' that just inserts into your waistband but the mags are outside. Can't remember the brand right now, I'll have to look when I get home. That being said I've currently got a Condor double mag molle carrier in my bag with 2 back up mags for my PD. Just stuffed in there, not attached on any molle.


paddle style double mag kydex like this.

Lifetime gamer watch at MacWa77ace YouTube Channel

Ask me about my Fully Semi-Automatic 30-Mag clip death gun that's as heavy as 10 boxes.


Optimist

Quote from: MacWa77aceI don't think I'd've thought of using Esstacs as first line, on body, mag holders. There's a bunch of kydex belt holsters that work for smaller belts and are even belt thickness adjustable. I even have a double mag set that has a 'paddle' that just inserts into your waistband but the mags are outside. Can't remember the brand right now, I'll have to look when I get home. That being said I've currently got a Condor double mag molle carrier in my bag with 2 back up mags for my PD. Just stuffed in there, not attached on any molle.


paddle style double mag kydex like this.


I probably should have done a little more research before buying the Esstacs. I just heard a bunch of people here and other places saying they were good, so I went ahead and bought a couple to test, but police gear might be a lot more suited to what I'm thinking about than military gear.

I think I'm guilty of abusing the term "first-line gear" as I'm using it more in the sense of EDC than E&E. What I imagine as likely for my friends and family out here is that if things get bad we'd start adding a lot more stuff to our belts (full-size handguns with extra mags, radios, first aid, maybe long gun ammo) but we'd still need to be working our butts off on tasks like gardening and harvesting fire wood. Carrying a rifle and a bunch of second-line gear would be exhausting, but it might not be a bad idea to have that stuff nearby in case there is advanced warning like hearing gunshots or a neighbor calling us on the radio.

If things get really, really bad to the point where it seems necessary to always have a long gun and gear on our persons then I imagine it's past time for us to pack up and move out to one of our cabins totally off the road system and lay low. That would suck for obvious reasons but especially as we would be relying entirely on finite pre-stocked supplies.

MacWa77ace

Quote from: Optimist on December 06, 2022, 12:44:05 PMI probably should have done a little more research before buying the Esstacs. I just heard a bunch of people here and other places saying they were good, so I went ahead and bought a couple to test, but police gear might be a lot more suited to what I'm thinking about than military gear.

I think I'm guilty of abusing the term "first-line gear" as I'm using it more in the sense of EDC than E&E. What I imagine as likely for my friends and family out here is that if things get bad we'd start adding a lot more stuff to our belts (full-size handguns with extra mags, radios, first aid, maybe long gun ammo) but we'd still need to be working our butts off on tasks like gardening and harvesting fire wood. Carrying a rifle and a bunch of second-line gear would be exhausting, but it might not be a bad idea to have that stuff nearby in case there is advanced warning like hearing gunshots or a neighbor calling us on the radio.

If things get really, really bad to the point where it seems necessary to always have a long gun and gear on our persons then I imagine it's past time for us to pack up and move out to one of our cabins totally off the road system and lay low. That would suck for obvious reasons but especially as we would be relying entirely on finite pre-stocked supplies.

Esstac are excellent mag holders. Now you just need to build a complete 2nd line kit around that one mag holder, LOL.  :awesome:

'First line' in the context of this '2nd line' thread means EDC to me also. And when you added in the 'handing out to friends and family' I understood that it meant open carry which may or may not be legal in all AO's in all apocalypse scenarios. But there are a lot of 'open carry' mag holders that aren't cammo and are more streamlined and EDC even for 1" belts. And the belt clips are adjustable to fit from 1" to 1.75" in some cases.

Don't forget you can run a security team to oversee the workers. The 'team' would probably have their 2nd line kit on, while the 'workers' would just have their EDC, whether that be open carry or concealed  [for pistol mags also IWB]
Lifetime gamer watch at MacWa77ace YouTube Channel

Ask me about my Fully Semi-Automatic 30-Mag clip death gun that's as heavy as 10 boxes.


Optimist

I'm glad my blathering made sense. I'm on vacation down in Florida and I think the sun has addled my brain.
Quote from: MacWa77aceDon't forget you can run a security team to oversee the workers. The 'team' would probably have their 2nd line kit on, while the 'workers' would just have their EDC, whether that be open carry or concealed  [for pistol mags also IWB]
That makes sense. I wonder if having a dedicated security team for a whole "shift" makes sense or if everyone capable taking more frequent rotations of being on watch makes more sense? Frequent rotations would give people more of a chance to take a breather from the regular work and less time to get bored of keeping a lookout, but that means the people on watch would also be at least somewhat worn out from working. I imagine it's pretty dependent on the particular circumstances.

MacWa77ace

Quote from: Optimist on December 06, 2022, 02:26:41 PMI'm glad my blathering made sense. I'm on vacation down in Florida and I think the sun has addled my brain.


Naaah, I live here year round and the sun is so low now that even at high noon that it feels to me like having a kitten fall asleep on your chest.  :awesome: But visit us here in July, then it'll feel like your standing in the anti matter chamber on the Starship Enterprise.



I'm just glad I can still go in my pool so far this year, pool temp was 74 degrees Saturday, so I jumped in after mowing the lawn. If the pool temp drops much lower I'll have to wait for the spring thaw before I go in again. This Florida boy ain't no polar club member. Florida polar club starts at 69 degrees IIRC. LOL.
Lifetime gamer watch at MacWa77ace YouTube Channel

Ask me about my Fully Semi-Automatic 30-Mag clip death gun that's as heavy as 10 boxes.


Optimist

Wasn't sure whether to put this in here or in one of the bargain threads, but Varusteleka has British surplus Osprey vests with a bunch of pouches for $40. The pouches people are getting with these seem a little random, but it sounds like a lot of people are getting 10+.
https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/british-osprey-load-bearing-vest-package-desert-dpm-surplus/6149

I made myself pass the last couple times they were in stock but I decided to get a couple of them this time mostly to get an assortment of pouches.

The desert camo doesn't really fit with my area, but I figure I can dye and paint them. Pegasus Tests has a couple videos on these, including one where he dyes one OD green. A few things didn't take the dye but I figure I can always paint them.

Halfapint

Well thanks I just bought it if nothing else I'm gonna try dying it. My plate carrier I got used but only slightly and it's tan. Where I'm in the PNW ana tan is no bueno. I've just been holding off on doing anything because I don't want to mess it up.
The original Half gettin sum land thread
https://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=111413

Quote from: SpazzyTell ya what... If Zombies attack and the world ends I'll hook tandem toddlers to a plow if it means I'll be able to eat...

Optimist

Got the surplus Osprey vests. One came with nine pouches and one came with ten. These are the pouches I got:
6x utility pouches*
1x small utility pouch
2x knife/flashlight pouches
2x 40mm genrade pouches**
2x AP grenade pouches
2x medical pouches
3x SA80 ammunition (magazine) pouches
1x water bottle pouch
*Got a lot of these but they seem pretty useful. They have and expandable collar with cinch string (in addition to the regular clasp) and and are lined with a material that I suspect is waterproof, which seems good in my wet environment. I think they might fit a standard size nalgene bottle but I don't have any on hand to test with.
**these don't have the open bottoms like some do.

Some of them seem almost brand new, while other you can definitely tell they were used, but everything is in pretty good shape.

I ordered some dark green RIT dye. I'm on the fence about finding a recipe, testing it on one pouch and then adjusting, or just going for it and dying everything at once because I'm lazy,

Halfapint

Got mine as well and couldn't find this post. I'm less than thrilled. I got 6 punches 3 canteen and 3 3 mag pouches.

The mag pouches are cool but 3 canteen?!? And most of the ouches are stained red.
The original Half gettin sum land thread
https://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=111413

Quote from: SpazzyTell ya what... If Zombies attack and the world ends I'll hook tandem toddlers to a plow if it means I'll be able to eat...

Optimist

Quote from: Halfapint on January 08, 2023, 10:06:34 AMGot mine as well and couldn't find this post. I'm less than thrilled. I got 6 punches 3 canteen and 3 3 mag pouches.

The mag pouches are cool but 3 canteen?!? And most of the ouches are stained red.
Oh, that stinks. You want to trade a water bottle pouch for a utility pouch? They aren't that different overall. The utility pouch is a little smaller but has the expanding collar with the cinch cord.

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