Shepherds Slings are Fundamental to Survival Prepping

[Wasteland Charlie]

I don't think the lowly shepherds sling gets enough love. Pound for pound, there is no more effective projectile weapon that can be created as easily and as cheaply as the sling. I am talking about range of use and force delivered and its use as an offensive weapon and hunting tool, when I refer to their effectiveness. You can weave one from paracord, or handmade cordage if necessary, very quickly. You an make them from leather or even vinyl. The ammunition (rocks)can be picked up for free, or manufactured from scavaged wheel weights or even clay. Rabbit sticks are easy to make but lack range and are too weak to use as an offensive weapon. 

Yes, there are limitations, all weapons have the, but bang for the buck is there. They are also fun to play with, if you have the space.

That being said, I would argue that bows and arrows are superior to slings, once you manufacture them. But the manufacturing process takes time and is time and labor intensive. They are expensive to buy and bulky. They can immediately identified as weapons. A hank of string and your geological samples you're taking back to put through your rock tumbler can pass through metal detectors and wouldn't invite attention should you be searched by people hostile to you having a projectile weapon.

Slings then are the best weapon for an emergency situation, at least in the early stages when, obviously, you don't have access to firearms or more sophisticated mechanical weapons.

Change my mind.

[Moab]

"Change my mind."

Love these kind of debates.

I agree with you "if" you have experience with a sling. They aren't that accurate for someone who's never handled one. And they aren't as accurate as say a thrown spear at a reasonable distance.

Also reload times are not the same as a thrust or swung - knife, spear or sword.

The first thing I'm going to try to find in a "PAW without weapons" is a sharp piece of metal - a knife, spear or sword.

Specifically something akin to a short sword. Not so long it's slow or cumbersome. But with some length that might get you further distance from your attacker. If nothing else a knife of any kind. Simple, sharp, fast, and easy to find/carry. It doesn't require any advanced training. Although advanced training would help you.

The other thing about knives/spears/swords is they are easy force multipliers. You can hand any of those to anyone and make them many more times effective as a fight. Without any training. They can also be improvised out of many different pieces of simple found metal. Not to mention from any tool shed or garage in any house.

Further a spear of some kind. In addition to your knife. Any kind of simple weapon, easy to use and gets you distance from your attacker.

I would use a knife/sword/spear before a sling. It's much easier to be terminal with both or either. Than a sling. Not saying you can't kill with a sling. But the chances are just much better with a knife, spear or sword. Even a cheap machete would be an advantage over a sling.

Lastly, scrounged weapons. In a PAW it's not like every tool, weapon, gun is going to disappear. You'll find any of the above. Spending time to make a sling and find projectiles seems like a second phase at weapons attempt. And there are much more readily available weapons. That are better.

Slings were always an effective hunting technique. As it's not life or death in that instant. And you can be accurate "enough". But in a defensive situation many other weapons seem more failsafe than a sling. In a situation where accuracy and moments count.

[Wasteland Charlie]

"Change my mind."

Love these kind of debates.

I agree with you "if" you have experience with a sling. They aren't that accurate for someone who's never handled one. And they aren't as accurate as say a thrown spear at a reasonable distance.

Also reload times are not the same as a thrust or swung - knife, spear or sword.

The first thing I'm going to try to find in a "PAW without weapons" is a sharp piece of metal - a knife, spear or sword.

Specifically something akin to a short sword. Not so long it's slow or cumbersome. But with some length that might get you further distance from your attacker. If nothing else a knife of any kind. Simple, sharp, fast, and easy to find/carry. It doesn't require any advanced training. Although advanced training would help you.

The other thing about knives/spears/swords is they are easy force multipliers. You can hand any of those to anyone and make them many more times effective as a fight. Without any training. They can also be improvised out of many different pieces of simple found metal. Not to mention from any tool shed or garage in any house.

Further a spear of some kind. In addition to your knife. Any kind of simple weapon, easy to use and gets you distance from your attacker.

I would use a knife/sword/spear before a sling. It's much easier to be terminal with both or either. Than a sling. Not saying you can't kill with a sling. But the chances are just much better with a knife, spear or sword. Even a cheap machete would be an advantage over a sling.

Lastly, scrounged weapons. In a PAW it's not like every tool, weapon, gun is going to disappear. You'll find any of the above. Spending time to make a sling and find projectiles seems like a second phase at weapons attempt. And there are much more readily available weapons. That are better.

Slings were always an effective hunting technique. As it's not life or death in that instant. And you can be accurate "enough". But in a defensive situation many other weapons seem more failsafe than a sling. In a situation where accuracy and moments count.

Pre-manufactured weapons are preferred, but my thinking was a situation where you have none readily available and you must manufacture something. 

Stand off weapons, i.e. projectile weapons or long spears, have inherent advantages over swords, axes, maces which is why they were dominant on the pre-modern battlefield. Hand weapons, like swords, occupied the same niche as a pistol does today. They were sidearms.

So, of all the projectile weapons you can possibly make, the sling is fundamental  because its fast to make, cheap, and esidearm. More so than any other projectile weapon.

Yes, practice is necessary, but that's true with any weapon, even firearms.

[Moab]

"Change my mind."

Love these kind of debates.

I agree with you "if" you have experience with a sling. They aren't that accurate for someone who's never handled one. And they aren't as accurate as say a thrown spear at a reasonable distance.

Also reload times are not the same as a thrust or swung - knife, spear or sword.

The first thing I'm going to try to find in a "PAW without weapons" is a sharp piece of metal - a knife, spear or sword.

Specifically something akin to a short sword. Not so long it's slow or cumbersome. But with some length that might get you further distance from your attacker. If nothing else a knife of any kind. Simple, sharp, fast, and easy to find/carry. It doesn't require any advanced training. Although advanced training would help you.

The other thing about knives/spears/swords is they are easy force multipliers. You can hand any of those to anyone and make them many more times effective as a fight. Without any training. They can also be improvised out of many different pieces of simple found metal. Not to mention from any tool shed or garage in any house.

Further a spear of some kind. In addition to your knife. Any kind of simple weapon, easy to use and gets you distance from your attacker.

I would use a knife/sword/spear before a sling. It's much easier to be terminal with both or either. Than a sling. Not saying you can't kill with a sling. But the chances are just much better with a knife, spear or sword. Even a cheap machete would be an advantage over a sling.

Lastly, scrounged weapons. In a PAW it's not like every tool, weapon, gun is going to disappear. You'll find any of the above. Spending time to make a sling and find projectiles seems like a second phase at weapons attempt. And there are much more readily available weapons. That are better.

Slings were always an effective hunting technique. As it's not life or death in that instant. And you can be accurate "enough". But in a defensive situation many other weapons seem more failsafe than a sling. In a situation where accuracy and moments count.

Pre-manufactured weapons are preferred, but my thinking was a situation where you have none readily available and you must manufacture something.

Stand off weapons, i.e. projectile weapons or long spears, have inherent advantages over swords, axes, maces which is why they were dominant on the pre-modern battlefield. Hand weapons, like swords, occupied the same niche as a pistol does today. They were sidearms.

So, of all the projectile weapons you can possibly make, the sling is fundamental  because its fast to make, cheap, and esidearm. More so than any other projectile weapon.

Yes, practice is necessary, but that's true with any weapon, even firearms.

I think that's true of these weapons if your main consideration is a battlefield where these were mainly used. Self defense in a PAW situation would be very different. Most likely not in an open space. People won't be there. And they are  going to run. Not fight. Most interactions will probably be where your forced too. Urban/suburban settings where most of the shelter and supplies exist.

In a confined space like a city or suburb the spear would not be preferable over the knives and sword. Inside or between buildings, where you might not be able to escape/run, the sword and knife would be most maneuverable.

Outside the spear has the advantage of distance. But I'm not sure if I want to fight a guy with a sword - using a spear. It seems like beyond the initial throw or stab, the time it takes to maneuver another slash would be slow. Compared to a sword.

You'd have the distance advantage during the initial strike. But if it's not fatal the swordsman could attack quickly and repeatedly - much faster than the spear.

So are you proposing a sling made of natural fibers?

[Wasteland Charlie]

"Change my mind."

Love these kind of debates.

I agree with you "if" you have experience with a sling. They aren't that accurate for someone who's never handled one. And they aren't as accurate as say a thrown spear at a reasonable distance.

Also reload times are not the same as a thrust or swung - knife, spear or sword.

The first thing I'm going to try to find in a "PAW without weapons" is a sharp piece of metal - a knife, spear or sword.

Specifically something akin to a short sword. Not so long it's slow or cumbersome. But with some length that might get you further distance from your attacker. If nothing else a knife of any kind. Simple, sharp, fast, and easy to find/carry. It doesn't require any advanced training. Although advanced training would help you.

The other thing about knives/spears/swords is they are easy force multipliers. You can hand any of those to anyone and make them many more times effective as a fight. Without any training. They can also be improvised out of many different pieces of simple found metal. Not to mention from any tool shed or garage in any house.

Further a spear of some kind. In addition to your knife. Any kind of simple weapon, easy to use and gets you distance from your attacker.

I would use a knife/sword/spear before a sling. It's much easier to be terminal with both or either. Than a sling. Not saying you can't kill with a sling. But the chances are just much better with a knife, spear or sword. Even a cheap machete would be an advantage over a sling.

Lastly, scrounged weapons. In a PAW it's not like every tool, weapon, gun is going to disappear. You'll find any of the above. Spending time to make a sling and find projectiles seems like a second phase at weapons attempt. And there are much more readily available weapons. That are better.

Slings were always an effective hunting technique. As it's not life or death in that instant. And you can be accurate "enough". But in a defensive situation many other weapons seem more failsafe than a sling. In a situation where accuracy and moments count.

Pre-manufactured weapons are preferred, but my thinking was a situation where you have none readily available and you must manufacture something.

Stand off weapons, i.e. projectile weapons or long spears, have inherent advantages over swords, axes, maces which is why they were dominant on the pre-modern battlefield. Hand weapons, like swords, occupied the same niche as a pistol does today. They were sidearms.

So, of all the projectile weapons you can possibly make, the sling is fundamental  because its fast to make, cheap, and esidearm. More so than any other projectile weapon.

Yes, practice is necessary, but that's true with any weapon, even firearms.

I think that's true of these weapons if your main consideration is a battlefield where these were mainly used. Self defense in a PAW situation would be very different. Most likely not in an open space. People won't be there. And they are  going to run. Not fight. Most interactions will probably be where your forced too. Urban/suburban settings where most of the shelter and supplies exist.

In a confined space like a city or suburb the spear would not be preferable over the knives and sword. Inside or between buildings, where you might not be able to escape/run, the sword and knife would be most maneuverable.

Outside the spear has the advantage of distance. But I'm not sure if I want to fight a guy with a sword - using a spear. It seems like beyond the initial throw or stab, the time it takes to maneuver another slash would be slow. Compared to a sword.

You'd have the distance advantage during the initial strike. But if it's not fatal the swordsman could attack quickly and repeatedly - much faster than the spear.

So are you proposing a sling made of natural fibers?

I studied both yarijutsu (spear fighting) and kenjutsu (sword fighting), and a mediocre spearman will beat a really good swordsman 80% of the time. Two bad spearmen will beat a really good swordsman 95% of the time. Spears have all the advantages in reach and speed and they are very nimble. They are also deceptive because you can choke up on the spear hiding it's length which causes your opponent to think he is outside your range when he isn't.  It's also difficult to see what a spear is doing since it presents very small in that you just see the point of the spear. When it darts in, it's very fast and you don't get a lot of visual references like a sword blade traveling in an arc allowing you to judge is speed and trajectory. And if a swordsman advances, the spearman can retreat just as fast, usually.

[Moab]

"Change my mind."

Love these kind of debates.

I agree with you "if" you have experience with a sling. They aren't that accurate for someone who's never handled one. And they aren't as accurate as say a thrown spear at a reasonable distance.

Also reload times are not the same as a thrust or swung - knife, spear or sword.

The first thing I'm going to try to find in a "PAW without weapons" is a sharp piece of metal - a knife, spear or sword.

Specifically something akin to a short sword. Not so long it's slow or cumbersome. But with some length that might get you further distance from your attacker. If nothing else a knife of any kind. Simple, sharp, fast, and easy to find/carry. It doesn't require any advanced training. Although advanced training would help you.

The other thing about knives/spears/swords is they are easy force multipliers. You can hand any of those to anyone and make them many more times effective as a fight. Without any training. They can also be improvised out of many different pieces of simple found metal. Not to mention from any tool shed or garage in any house.

Further a spear of some kind. In addition to your knife. Any kind of simple weapon, easy to use and gets you distance from your attacker.

I would use a knife/sword/spear before a sling. It's much easier to be terminal with both or either. Than a sling. Not saying you can't kill with a sling. But the chances are just much better with a knife, spear or sword. Even a cheap machete would be an advantage over a sling.

Lastly, scrounged weapons. In a PAW it's not like every tool, weapon, gun is going to disappear. You'll find any of the above. Spending time to make a sling and find projectiles seems like a second phase at weapons attempt. And there are much more readily available weapons. That are better.

Slings were always an effective hunting technique. As it's not life or death in that instant. And you can be accurate "enough". But in a defensive situation many other weapons seem more failsafe than a sling. In a situation where accuracy and moments count.

Pre-manufactured weapons are preferred, but my thinking was a situation where you have none readily available and you must manufacture something.

Stand off weapons, i.e. projectile weapons or long spears, have inherent advantages over swords, axes, maces which is why they were dominant on the pre-modern battlefield. Hand weapons, like swords, occupied the same niche as a pistol does today. They were sidearms.

So, of all the projectile weapons you can possibly make, the sling is fundamental  because its fast to make, cheap, and esidearm. More so than any other projectile weapon.

Yes, practice is necessary, but that's true with any weapon, even firearms.

I think that's true of these weapons if your main consideration is a battlefield where these were mainly used. Self defense in a PAW situation would be very different. Most likely not in an open space. People won't be there. And they are  going to run. Not fight. Most interactions will probably be where your forced too. Urban/suburban settings where most of the shelter and supplies exist.

In a confined space like a city or suburb the spear would not be preferable over the knives and sword. Inside or between buildings, where you might not be able to escape/run, the sword and knife would be most maneuverable.

Outside the spear has the advantage of distance. But I'm not sure if I want to fight a guy with a sword - using a spear. It seems like beyond the initial throw or stab, the time it takes to maneuver another slash would be slow. Compared to a sword.

You'd have the distance advantage during the initial strike. But if it's not fatal the swordsman could attack quickly and repeatedly - much faster than the spear.

So are you proposing a sling made of natural fibers?

I studied both yarijutsu (spear fighting) and kenjutsu (sword fighting), and a mediocre spearman will beat a really good swordsman 80% of the time. Two bad spearmen will beat a really good swordsman 95% of the time. Spears have all the advantages in reach and speed and they are very nimble. They are also deceptive because you can choke up on the spear hiding it's length which causes your opponent to think he is outside your range when he isn't.  It's also difficult to see what a spear is doing since it presents very small in that you just see the point of the spear. When it darts in, it's very fast and you don't get a lot of visual references like a sword blade traveling in an arc allowing you to judge is speed and trajectory. And if a swordsman advances, the spearman can retreat just as fast, usually.

That's very cool! I knew a guy in NY that competed in some sort of blade martial art. 

I see what your saying. But I still fear the spears length in an enclosed space. And second, I wonder about the "average users" ability with either. 

How long would it take to train an average person to be say 40% more effective with a spear? Make sense? Like how effective is a person with no knowledge or training vs someone you give 5 minutes of instruction to? Or half a day of training? Something realistic? 

Are there strategies for handling a side weapon with a spear? Like the spear as your main weapon and a sword or knife? Either in your opposite hand? Or something you could switch to in a confined space?

This does make me think a spear might be the better of the two for a smaller, weaker, lighter weight person. Distance may be the only thing they can take advantage of. And simple, fast stabbing movements. They aren't going to out swipe or jab a larger, stronger heavier opponent. Maybe a medium length spear is an option too? Good for smaller people. And maybe even better in a confined space? Maybe a 4 or 5 foot spear? Longer than a sword - giving you the distance advantage. But not so long your movement is limited. Like in small rooms or hallways. 

I guess there is nothing wrong with at least carrying a good sized fighting knife with your spear. That you can quickly deploy in confined spaces. Kind of solves both arguments.

I like your bow comments too. The bow was the most effective pre-gun weapon IMHO. For how many centuries? And with training very fast, much faster than most people realize. And/or strong pull weights that facilitated deep penetration or distance. But we're talking lifetime training. 

But it's possible to get fairly fast with a bow. At a considerable distance. And stealth. 

[Wasteland Charlie]

First of circumstances dictate the proper weapon. Spears are useless in a phone booth, for example. However, your primary weapon will always be the one that gives you the longest reach. Secondary weapons are used as back up weapons, or are chosen for their convenience factor. Cops carry a pistol all the time and it's their primary weapon because a rifle or shotgun are too big and inconvenient for the vast majority of what they do and they only deploy them under very specific circumstances. Roughly speaking, long range weapons are for offense and short range weapons are for defense. The shorter the range the more defensive it is, usually. Obviously, there is a lot of overlap and circumstantial variables in  play, but this is generally true.

Physical fighting has more variables in it than gun play, so a one size fits all people as far as how fast they learn and how well they doesn't work. However, the military still teaches bayonet fighting, which is essentially spear training. I would use that training as a base line for "competent" with a spear. So weeks, not years, but obviously the more you invest in time and effort in spear training the better you get. I would say a US Marine with a spearwould be a very dangerous opponent to an accomplished swordsman.

In my mind, a spear just taller than yourself up to eight feet would be about right. I was trained to fight in a line of spearmen, so we went 12', but those are awkward for carrying around on a daily basis. Even though short spears have been famously used, I recommend taller than yourself as a safety measure so you don't stab yourself in the eye if you trip, as the point of the spear will be behind your head. Also, shorter weapons are almost always used with large shields. Also, you don't really want to lose your reach advantage.

There is a YouTube channel called Britishmuzzleloader ran by a Canadian fellow with an interest in 19th Century British military gear and tactics. He has an excellent video on 19th century bayonet fighting that could be easily adapted to spear fighting. There are also US Civil War reenactors that have instructional videos on bayonet training and their are army training films from the First and Second World Wars that could be mined for valuable information.

Assuming you are caught unprepared, or somehow separated from your gear, you are going to need to re-arm yourself. I am also assuming you would want to do this as quicky as possible. My contention is that the Shepherds Sling is the quickest, easiest, cheapest way to get yourself armed offensively. A very rudimentary spear could be made from a sharpened stick, but a stone or metal tipped spear would require mich more time, skills, and resources. Bows, crossbows, and firearms require even more than spears in the way of time, skills, and resources to make. One more point is that even with a pocket full of rocks, it is compact and lightweight when you carry it.

I am not contending that the Shepherds Sling is the ultimate weapon for projecting offensive power, I think bows and arrows, followed by crossbows, are the best non-firearm weapons available for that. Nor am I contending that a sling is the only weapon you want or need. Fighting is chaotically fluid, so you may not get to choose when, where, or at what distance you have to fight. Thus, you carry options with you. Samurai, famously carried a long and short sword, but preferred to fight with bows or spears or other long weapons on the battlefield. Spearmen were also paid the most of the different kinds of soldiers. Samurai also employed very long Tachi swords in preference to katanas. Katanas were backup weapons on the battlefield and primary weapons at other times because they were convenient. The shoto or short sword was used inside buildings or narrow alleyways. In Medieval Europe a English longbowman would have his long bow as his primary, or offensive weapon, and a sword/axe/mace with a buckler as a secondary, or defensive weapon system. Finally he would have some sort of dagger for the really close work. A modern infantryman might have a rifle/pistol/ bayonet occupying those same roles.

In a scenario where you need to rearm fast, a Shepherds Sling and a club of some sort would be the fastest way to do so. A knife would be a pre-made weapon, but they are very common and almost any kitchen could arm you in that respect, so I would concede that as a valid option. As time passes, you could, and should, improve your options. However I stand by the idea that the Shepherds Sling is best "phase one" weapon in any scenario where you don't have options immediately available.