Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore collapses

Started by NT2C, March 26, 2024, 05:03:53 AM

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NT2C

Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

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DarkAxel

My FIL worked Swift Water Rescue and TRT out there. If he still lived in MD he'd be out there right now with his crew.

Raptor

#2
This is being reported as a mass casualty event. This is I believe the bridge that spans the harbor. Anyone know if this restricts access for the US navy's vessels to the Atlantic?

This will restrict traffic to and from the container port at Baltimore likely for a couple of weeks. That port is not insignificant to east coat import/export activities. Depending upon the number of container ships still in the port thier delay may also have an impact.

I saw where it carries a Singapore flag which is pretty strict (as flags of convenience go) about ship maintenance. That and the required port pilots were aboard. The sudden turn in the initial reports indicate a steering issue, but it way too soon to make any calls on causes.

There was no word on any assist tugs present at the time. I suspect assist tugs will be required past this point, but that is just speculation on my part.
Folks you are on your own...Plan and act accordingly!

I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers. As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

NT2C

Quote from: Raptor on March 26, 2024, 08:37:53 AMThis is being reported as a mass casualty event. This is I believe the bridge that spans the harbor. Anyone know if this restricts access for the US navy's vessels to the Atlantic?

This will restrict traffic to and from the container port at Baltimore likely for a couple of weeks. That port is not insignificant to east coat import/export activities. Depending upon the number of container ships still in the port thier delay may also have an impact.

I saw where it carries a Singapore flag which is pretty strict (as flags of convenience go) about ship maintenance. That and the required port pilots were aboard. The sudden turn in the initial reports indicate a steering issue, but it way too soon to make any calls on causes.

There was no word on any assist tugs present at the time. I suspect assist tugs will be required past this point, but that is just speculation on my part.
Navy doesn't really keep much in Baltimore, most of their stuff is further south in Portsmith, Norfolk, and Little Creek.  The Army does have a couple of ships there however, and there are two hospital ships home ported there but I think they're in the Med right now.
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flybynight

Quote from: NT2C on March 26, 2024, 09:53:22 AM
Quote from: Raptor on March 26, 2024, 08:37:53 AMThis is being reported as a mass casualty event. This is I believe the bridge that spans the harbor. Anyone know if this restricts access for the US navy's vessels to the Atlantic?

This will restrict traffic to and from the container port at Baltimore likely for a couple of weeks. That port is not insignificant to east coat import/export activities. Depending upon the number of container ships still in the port thier delay may also have an impact.

I saw where it carries a Singapore flag which is pretty strict (as flags of convenience go) about ship maintenance. That and the required port pilots were aboard. The sudden turn in the initial reports indicate a steering issue, but it way too soon to make any calls on causes.

There was no word on any assist tugs present at the time. I suspect assist tugs will be required past this point, but that is just speculation on my part.
Navy doesn't really keep much in Baltimore, most of their stuff is further south in Portsmith, Norfolk, and Little Creek.  The Army does have a couple of ships there however, and there are two hospital ships home ported there but I think they're in the Med right now.
I looked on Google maps and see a large Coast Guard station. Those boats will not be deployable for the near future
"Hey idiot, you should feel your pulse, not see it."  Echo 83

EBuff75


That ship is going to require some major repairs for that big chunk that's torn out of the bow.  Not only that, you can see how much that section of bridge weighs, given that it's pushing the bow down into the water (see how much higher the stern is in the picture).

Information - it's all a battle for information. You have to know what's happening if you're going to do anything about it. - Tom Clancy, Patriot Games

NT2C

Quote from: flybynight on March 26, 2024, 11:51:56 AM
Quote from: NT2C on March 26, 2024, 09:53:22 AM
Quote from: Raptor on March 26, 2024, 08:37:53 AMThis is being reported as a mass casualty event. This is I believe the bridge that spans the harbor. Anyone know if this restricts access for the US navy's vessels to the Atlantic?

This will restrict traffic to and from the container port at Baltimore likely for a couple of weeks. That port is not insignificant to east coat import/export activities. Depending upon the number of container ships still in the port thier delay may also have an impact.

I saw where it carries a Singapore flag which is pretty strict (as flags of convenience go) about ship maintenance. That and the required port pilots were aboard. The sudden turn in the initial reports indicate a steering issue, but it way too soon to make any calls on causes.

There was no word on any assist tugs present at the time. I suspect assist tugs will be required past this point, but that is just speculation on my part.
Navy doesn't really keep much in Baltimore, most of their stuff is further south in Portsmith, Norfolk, and Little Creek.  The Army does have a couple of ships there however, and there are two hospital ships home ported there but I think they're in the Med right now.
I looked on Google maps and see a large Coast Guard station. Those boats will not be deployable for the near future

Yes, the Coast Guard Yard is there but the Coasties have mostly shallow draft stuff there and anything big in the yards is in for more than an oil change and rotate the propellers. 
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

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Raptor

A video of the allision. You can see all of the lights on the ship go dark twice. The generator obviously went off line and either a back up generator kicked in or the generator was reset.
You can also see some really lucky person cross immediately before the allision.


https://twitter.com/YWNReporter/status/1772546230310056446/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1772546230310056446&currentTweetUser=YWNReporter
Folks you are on your own...Plan and act accordingly!

I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers. As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

Anianna

The timing is fortunate in that this occurred before the heavy traffic of the day.  Reports I've been hearing said there were eight people known to have been on the bridge.  I believe that number is the crew that was working on the bridge filling potholes at the time.  Two of those have been recovered.  

The crew of the vessel had alerted MD DOT who were able to close the bridge to traffic before it was struck, so if there were any vehicles on the span, they would have been the last to pass before the bridge was closed.  A briefing was released by MD officials stating that, following a review of the video, there were not vehicles on the span at the time it went down.  It's unclear to me if the workers on the bridge received any kind of notice. 

The ship was being piloted by a local harbor pilot, which is typical in east coast harbors (maybe all harbors, I don't know).  A local pilot will get the ship to open ocean and then hand over controls to the ship's crew.  The pilot was screened by authorities following the accident. 

Notably, this is the route rigs carrying hazardous materials take because the other primary route includes a tunnel they are not permitted to traverse for safety reasons.  Not sure how that traffic can be rerouted.
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12_Gauge_Chimp

I've been watching videos of the bridge collapse on YouTube and man that thing went down quick. Like it was less than a couple seconds from impact to collapse.

Which I suppose isn't all that surprising considering a loaded container ship weighs somewhere along the lines of 200k tons.

majorhavoc

#10
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on March 27, 2024, 04:54:01 PMI've been watching videos of the bridge collapse on YouTube and man that thing went down quick. Like it was less than a couple seconds from impact to collapse.

Which I suppose isn't all that surprising considering a loaded container ship weighs somewhere along the lines of 200k tons.
Yep. An abject demonstration of

        F = m*a

People who are clamoring to declare the bridge was somehow deficient or that pilings or fenders could have protected it from collapsing need to STFU.  The most charitable thing you can say about this is that cargo ships were a hell of a lot smaller when that bridge was put up, and the engineers who designed it had no clue what megaton monsters that would be plying the waters 50 years later.
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NT2C

Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 06:00:40 PM...and the engineers who designed it had no clue what megaton monsters that would be plying the waters 50 years later.
Oh, but they most certainly did. This bad boy was built fully ten years prior and note what it says here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge%E2%80%93Tunnel

QuoteHigh-level bridges were initially considered for traversing these channels. The United States Navy objected to bridging the Thimble Shoals Channel because a bridge collapse (possibly by sabotage) could cut Naval Station Norfolk off from the Atlantic Ocean. Maryland officials expressed similar concerns about the Chesapeake Channel and the Port of Baltimore.[6]
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

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majorhavoc

Quote from: NT2C on March 27, 2024, 06:40:18 PM
Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 06:00:40 PM...and the engineers who designed it had no clue what megaton monsters that would be plying the waters 50 years later.
Oh, but they most certainly did. This bad boy was built fully ten years prior and note what it says here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge%E2%80%93Tunnel

QuoteHigh-level bridges were initially considered for traversing these channels. The United States Navy objected to bridging the Thimble Shoals Channel because a bridge collapse (possibly by sabotage) could cut Naval Station Norfolk off from the Atlantic Ocean. Maryland officials expressed similar concerns about the Chesapeake Channel and the Port of Baltimore.[6]
That's not my point at all.  Vulnerabilty to sabotage or accidental ship strikes were no doubt always a concern.  What I'm saying is that seaborne shipping is a completely different animal today than what it was in the 1970's.  Bridge designers back then had no absolutely no idea about the coming transformation in international shipping that came with the advent of the mega container ship.  The almost exponential increase in size and tonnage was simply unfathomable back then.  My glib reference to F=m*a was to illustrate that when monsterous structures of that size are set in motion and then collide with something, they're going to transmit a level of force magnitudes greater than anything that engineers back then could have anticipated.  Today's cargo ships are ten to twenty times more massive than they were in the mid 70s.
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NT2C

Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 07:20:08 PM
Quote from: NT2C on March 27, 2024, 06:40:18 PM
Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 06:00:40 PM...and the engineers who designed it had no clue what megaton monsters that would be plying the waters 50 years later.
Oh, but they most certainly did. This bad boy was built fully ten years prior and note what it says here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge%E2%80%93Tunnel

QuoteHigh-level bridges were initially considered for traversing these channels. The United States Navy objected to bridging the Thimble Shoals Channel because a bridge collapse (possibly by sabotage) could cut Naval Station Norfolk off from the Atlantic Ocean. Maryland officials expressed similar concerns about the Chesapeake Channel and the Port of Baltimore.[6]
That's not my point at all.  Vulnerabilty to sabotage or accidental ship strikes were no doubt always a concern.  What I'm saying is that seaborne shipping is a completely different animal today than what it was in the 1970's.  Bridge designers back then had no absolutely no idea about the coming transformation in international shipping that came with the advent of the mega container ship.  The almost exponential increase in size and tonnage was simply unfathomable back then.  My glib reference to F=m*a was to illustrate that when monsterous structures of that size are set in motion and then collide with something, they're going to transmit a level of force magnitudes greater than anything that engineers back then could have anticipated.  Today's cargo ships are ten to twenty times more massive than they were in the mid 70s.
And my point was that in having the concerns they did, even in the 60s, showed that they were well aware that containerized freight was leading to a surge in tonnage.  Once Panamax ships came about and lead to on-deck racking for containers to increase profits while still able to use the Panama Canal it was inevitable, and engineers knew it.  This bridge should have been a tunnel but the state needed a hazmats route that didn't go through the city so the bridge was the only option.
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

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EBuff75


The Brick Immortar channel on YouTube has produced a number of videos about various bridge collapses (including the Sunshine Skyway Bridge, which collapsed due to a ship impact).  I'm sure that he'll end up doing one about this as well, but probably not for some time, as he generally waits until the technical analysis of the event is completed. 

Here's his bridge playlist.
Information - it's all a battle for information. You have to know what's happening if you're going to do anything about it. - Tom Clancy, Patriot Games

Uomo Senza Nome

Quote from: NT2C on March 27, 2024, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 07:20:08 PM
Quote from: NT2C on March 27, 2024, 06:40:18 PM
Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 06:00:40 PM...and the engineers who designed it had no clue what megaton monsters that would be plying the waters 50 years later.
Oh, but they most certainly did. This bad boy was built fully ten years prior and note what it says here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge%E2%80%93Tunnel

QuoteHigh-level bridges were initially considered for traversing these channels. The United States Navy objected to bridging the Thimble Shoals Channel because a bridge collapse (possibly by sabotage) could cut Naval Station Norfolk off from the Atlantic Ocean. Maryland officials expressed similar concerns about the Chesapeake Channel and the Port of Baltimore.[6]
That's not my point at all.  Vulnerabilty to sabotage or accidental ship strikes were no doubt always a concern.  What I'm saying is that seaborne shipping is a completely different animal today than what it was in the 1970's.  Bridge designers back then had no absolutely no idea about the coming transformation in international shipping that came with the advent of the mega container ship.  The almost exponential increase in size and tonnage was simply unfathomable back then.  My glib reference to F=m*a was to illustrate that when monsterous structures of that size are set in motion and then collide with something, they're going to transmit a level of force magnitudes greater than anything that engineers back then could have anticipated.  Today's cargo ships are ten to twenty times more massive than they were in the mid 70s.
And my point was that in having the concerns they did, even in the 60s, showed that they were well aware that containerized freight was leading to a surge in tonnage.  Once Panamax ships came about and lead to on-deck racking for containers to increase profits while still able to use the Panama Canal it was inevitable, and engineers knew it.  This bridge should have been a tunnel but the state needed a hazmats route that didn't go through the city so the bridge was the only option.
Now they are going to rebuild it (at taxpayer expense). Not sure this is the best plan.
"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

Raptor

#16
The ship's owners and insurers will likely foot some of the cost of the rebuild at least up to the value of the vessel and its cargo and the liability insurance limit.

The ships owner and potentially its chartered will face additional liability  but there is likely not enough coverage and any payments are likely to occur only after litigation.
Folks you are on your own...Plan and act accordingly!

I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers. As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

NT2C

Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on April 06, 2024, 10:17:15 AM
Quote from: NT2C on March 27, 2024, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 07:20:08 PM
Quote from: NT2C on March 27, 2024, 06:40:18 PM
Quote from: majorhavoc on March 27, 2024, 06:00:40 PM...and the engineers who designed it had no clue what megaton monsters that would be plying the waters 50 years later.
Oh, but they most certainly did. This bad boy was built fully ten years prior and note what it says here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge%E2%80%93Tunnel

QuoteHigh-level bridges were initially considered for traversing these channels. The United States Navy objected to bridging the Thimble Shoals Channel because a bridge collapse (possibly by sabotage) could cut Naval Station Norfolk off from the Atlantic Ocean. Maryland officials expressed similar concerns about the Chesapeake Channel and the Port of Baltimore.[6]
That's not my point at all.  Vulnerabilty to sabotage or accidental ship strikes were no doubt always a concern.  What I'm saying is that seaborne shipping is a completely different animal today than what it was in the 1970's.  Bridge designers back then had no absolutely no idea about the coming transformation in international shipping that came with the advent of the mega container ship.  The almost exponential increase in size and tonnage was simply unfathomable back then.  My glib reference to F=m*a was to illustrate that when monsterous structures of that size are set in motion and then collide with something, they're going to transmit a level of force magnitudes greater than anything that engineers back then could have anticipated.  Today's cargo ships are ten to twenty times more massive than they were in the mid 70s.
And my point was that in having the concerns they did, even in the 60s, showed that they were well aware that containerized freight was leading to a surge in tonnage.  Once Panamax ships came about and lead to on-deck racking for containers to increase profits while still able to use the Panama Canal it was inevitable, and engineers knew it.  This bridge should have been a tunnel but the state needed a hazmats route that didn't go through the city so the bridge was the only option.
Now they are going to rebuild it (at taxpayer expense). Not sure this is the best plan.

Not the best but maybe the only plan. They need a hazmat route outside the city, that bridge was it.
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

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majorhavoc

Maritime liability claims and insurance subrogation will likely take years to sort out. Waiting for that to run its course before starting reconstruction would be an even worse plan.
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<br />https://ufozs.com/smf/index.php?topic=105.0

airballrad

It's hard to fully take in all the ripples from this.

This does not affect me on a daily basis anymore, but I have had family working in and around the port for generations. My three brothers are out of work until the channel is opened for commercial traffic again, and they will have an altered commute for years as all of them used this bridge to get from the West side to Dundalk. My mother texted me that morning to tell me that all were safe; although I did have a cousin cross an hour before the collapse.

That said, it could have been much worse at a different time of day. Being much closer these days to the Sunshine Skyway bridge these days, and knowing the collapse it suffered in similar circumstances over 40 years ago, it could have been much worse.

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