Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel

Started by majorhavoc, October 07, 2023, 09:07:26 AM

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Uomo Senza Nome

Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on October 08, 2023, 04:56:59 PM
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on October 08, 2023, 01:29:46 PM
QuoteWhat if Israel let Egypt's military enter the west bank?

If that happens I will video myself ballerina dancing in a teal tutu and post it here.

I'll join you, except I'll be wearing a Doctor Zaius mask and a lime green tutu.

I think we'll sooner see Sasquatch, the Loch Ness monster and Baba Yaga marching to help Israel fight against Hamas before Egypt lifts a finger to help them.


I was going to go with lime green but it is at the cleaners. Didn't want to not be able to deliver JIC it happened. How many hit points does Nessie have? That could be epic.
"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

12_Gauge_Chimp

Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on October 08, 2023, 05:03:31 PM
Quote from: 12_Gauge_Chimp on October 08, 2023, 04:56:59 PM
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on October 08, 2023, 01:29:46 PM
QuoteWhat if Israel let Egypt's military enter the west bank?

If that happens I will video myself ballerina dancing in a teal tutu and post it here.

I'll join you, except I'll be wearing a Doctor Zaius mask and a lime green tutu.

I think we'll sooner see Sasquatch, the Loch Ness monster and Baba Yaga marching to help Israel fight against Hamas before Egypt lifts a finger to help them.


I was going to go with lime green but it is at the cleaners. Didn't want to not be able to deliver JIC it happened. How many hit points does Nessie have? That could be epic.


No clue on the exact number, but I'm guessing it's a pretty high one.

echo83

Quote from: Z.O.R.G. on October 08, 2023, 03:17:02 PMI doubt Egypt or any gulf country would seriously consider coming to Israel's aid.  As many have said, it appears the most likely objective Hamas has in this is to stop the peace process between Saudi & Israel.  (Aside from killing some Israelis.)  No matter how Israel persecutes a ground war, they will alienate portions of other gulf nations. 

And that's it, in a nutshell, right there...Rather than do anything to alleviate the suffering of their brethren in the Gaza Strip, Egypt will at best just seal the border and consider the job complete. Anwar Sadat was killed by his own people for acknowledging Israel's right to exist and signing a peace treaty with Israel, so I wouldn't count on anyone in the Egyptian government stepping in to quiet things down. 

What I find the most maddening is this: The Arab states would rather have the Gaza Strip remain a failed state under the governance of a terrorist group than do anything to alleviate the suffering of the residents. They'd rather those residents be dead insurgents (or dead innocents, in some cases) so that Israel can remain a convenient enemy. There are times in history when I think a shared hatred of Israel is the only thing bonding those states together. 

I'm trying as best as I can not to veer into politics. I also think that if there was a shred of political legitimacy remaining, (and there wasn't) that shred evaporated the second Hamas started shooting people at a peace festival. 

MacWa77ace

Israel is a gun control state. they have only 7 guns per 100 people. Compare that to the USA who's 2nd amendment protects the citizens inalienable right to self defense and has 120 guns for every 100 people.


If you extrapolate the deaths in Israel due to this attack onto the population of USA that would be the equivalent of 24,000 US citizens killed.

You would think that a country located in the midst of hostile neighbors, would require its citizens to be armed in defense of self and country.

When seconds count, the military and police are minutes hours away.



ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

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12_Gauge_Chimp

Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 09, 2023, 03:45:28 PMIsrael is a gun control state. they have only 7 guns per 100 people. Compare that to the USA who's 2nd amendment protects the citizens inalienable right to self defense and has 120 guns for every 100 people.


If you extrapolate the deaths in Israel due to this attack onto the population of USA that would be the equivalent of 24,000 US citizens killed.

You would think that a country located in the midst of hostile neighbors, would require its citizens to be armed in defense of self and country.

When seconds count, the military and police are minutes hours away.



ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country



I'm hearing chatter that the Israelis are reconsidering their stance on gun control and taking steps to make it a little easier for the average Israeli citizen to acquire a firearm for self defense.

The whole process is still nowhere near what it needs to be and is still stricter than it probably ought to be, though.

I'm also hearing rumors that Thailand is considering sending some of their special forces guys over to Israel to fight back against Hamas since a couple Thai citizens got killed in this attack. Same thing goes for Nepal and the Gurkhas.

If that's true, the last thing some Hamas terrorists might be hearing will be "Ayo Gorkhali".

echo83

Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 09, 2023, 03:45:28 PMIsrael is a gun control state. they have only 7 guns per 100 people. Compare that to the USA who's 2nd amendment protects the citizens inalienable right to self defense and has 120 guns for every 100 people.


If you extrapolate the deaths in Israel due to this attack onto the population of USA that would be the equivalent of 24,000 US citizens killed.

You would think that a country located in the midst of hostile neighbors, would require its citizens to be armed in defense of self and country.

When seconds count, the military and police are minutes hours away.



ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country


Man, that's some tragic math. 

And the gun math is pretty interesting. I've seen so many pictures of reservists in civilian clothes with their M4s slung across their backs that I thought firearms would be a little more prevalent than 7 per 100 people. 

At any rate, there will be more photos of those reservists. The IDF just activated 300,000 of them. This is an all-out war. 

Vox has an interesting and brief explanation of how things went sideways so badly:

https://www.vox.com/2023/10/7/23907323/israel-war-hamas-attack-explained-southern-israel-gaza

Z.O.R.G.

I just checked the Jerusalem Post (https://www.jpost.com) and it came back with a "429 Too Many Requests" error.  I wonder if it's down or a DoS attack is gonig on.

Uomo Senza Nome

Quote from: Z.O.R.G. on October 09, 2023, 06:58:23 PMI just checked the Jerusalem Post (https://www.jpost.com) and it came back with a "429 Too Many Requests" error.  I wonder if it's down or a DoS attack is gonig on.
DDOS attack, been going on all day.

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/jerusalem-post-ddos-israel-palestine-hacking/
"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

Uomo Senza Nome


QuoteIsrael is a gun control state. they have only 7 guns per 100 people. Compare that to the USA who's 2nd amendment protects the citizens inalienable right to self defense and has 120 guns for every 100 people.

etc...
I don't know about all that. In the US only about 2% of the population carries daily. Even if that many had been carrying pistols, Hamas was armed with assault rifles, organized and well trained. Anyone not under attack isn't going to stick their neck out to take on a gang of armed terrorists, which would be almost certain death. There are unicorns out there but doubtful it would have made any difference in the grander scheme.

Also, Something AQI used to do when they expected resistance was to equip their members with SVESTs. If you shot them, there was a good chance it would go off. If you shot them somewhere not fatal but they were still alive they would self detonate. This created tons more chaos and casualties. 
"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

MacWa77ace



Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on October 09, 2023, 09:03:45 PM
QuoteIsrael is a gun control state. they have only 7 guns per 100 people. Compare that to the USA who's 2nd amendment protects the citizens inalienable right to self defense and has 120 guns for every 100 people.

etc...
I don't know about all that. In the US only about 2% of the population carries daily. Even if that many had been carrying pistols, Hamas was armed with assault rifles, organized and well trained. Anyone not under attack isn't going to stick their neck out to take on a gang of armed terrorists, which would be almost certain death. There are unicorns out there but doubtful it would have made any difference in the grander scheme.

Also, Something AQI used to do when they expected resistance was to equip their members with SVESTs. If you shot them, there was a good chance it would go off. If you shot them somewhere not fatal but they were still alive they would self detonate. This created tons more chaos and casualties. 

Say you're one of those 2%, and this invasion news came over the wire. WWYD? You'd go home.
I've never seen a number, but there are a bunch of people with substantial trunk guns in my AO. But again, that'd be used to GBH. Where you could then gear up and head out if you wanted. Or protect your family.

In this case people were in their homes, it was a Saturday morning, and the terrorists were coming in and getting them. Home Defense gun, trunk gun. You don't need to carry, you just need to have a plan for off body.

Knowing everyone is mostly unarmed sets a certain tactic and confidence in the bad guys with guns. That's why gun free kill zones are so popular with mass murderers.
But thinking EVERYONE is armed, AND not knowing exactly who is and isn't, or how many guns you're up against, is a deterrent.

Put that SV in the middle of a group of terrorists and shoot it then. One shot, group gone.  Wonder why they didn't do this on a weekday and target schools?
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Uomo Senza Nome


QuoteKnowing everyone is mostly unarmed sets a certain tactic and confidence in the bad guys with guns. That's why gun free kill zones are so popular with mass murderers.
But thinking EVERYONE is armed, AND not knowing exactly who is and isn't, or how many guns you're up against, is a deterrent.
Not really. I've spent a lot of time in the ME and it seems to me that you are conflating and/or equating American mass shooters with ME terrorists. Well armed and well organized terrorist groups can and will attack heavily armed and protected targets and do so all the time. I've seen it happen, hell I've been there when happened. It simply calls for a change of tactics.  Security forces often are THE target. It's how ISIS spread so fast in the last decade.

American Mass shooters do target gun free zones such as schools so that they can kill as many people as possible before being killed, mostly motivated by self hatred. Terrorists see past the attack and if they can figure out a way to survive it they will. Their motivations and tactics are completely different.
"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

MacWa77ace

Civilians are also the targets in this scenario. Back in the 70's IIRC terrorists attacked civilians in Israel on the streets with machine guns. So everyone started carrying. And then the terrorists were being killed as soon as they pulled out their guns. So they switched tactics to bombings.

I know you're not saying that because you only have one gun and they have 5, that you should just lay down and die. Defensive positions usually have the advantage. [not always] Which means it takes five to get 1.

I'm just saying that the operational risk that if every 1 civilian were able to end 2  terrorists, that would be another deterrent.  And not knowing which houses were occupied by armed defenders may have deterred or delayed a house to house rampage. And that Israel is surrounded by enemies on their boarders and within. So why the gun control?

Scenario objective: kill and take hostage as many civilians as possible to wreak terror, in as short amount of time as possible. [excerpted from a terrorist's training workbook]
1. Freddie started to break into a house and someone started firing at him from the windows and doors. He should
A. move on to find a 'soft' target
B. try to get into that hard target just out of spite

2. Jason is driving his terrorist technical down the street and people are firing at him from the windows and rooftops. He should
A. find another street.
B. stop and engage.

3. Michael is tasked with going into a specific neighborhood to take hostages but sees a group of armed civilians patrolling the streets and rooftops. He should
A. continue into the neighborhood as ordered.
B. move on to the secondary target.


[answers: A, A, B]

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Uomo Senza Nome

MacWa77ace

You clearly have not studied the attack at all. They weren't driving around in terrorist technicals. That is so 1993. Hamas attacked IDF forces first and seized a number of vehicles directly from their compound. They also had at least 20 vehicles disguised as IDF/ Police vehicles from the start.  They abducted people by using their vehicles, or vehicles disguised as IDF and pretended to be IDF. They even set up phony checkpoints to keep responding forces out of the area. Most of those killed were indeed IDF.

Do you really think that armed civilians are going to attack armed IDF forces at a check point on the suspicion that they might be bogus? That if they appear to be arresting someone but are actually kidnapping them someone is going to jump into the middle of that? Do you really believe that the people that were taken hostage were randoms? That the targets had not already been researched and the best way to take them hadn't already been worked out?

None of your scenarios with the binary choices really apply or even make sense here. Certainly combat isn't binary.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bjqiytzza

"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

MacWa77ace

Uh, huh. Obviously.

Civilian hostage being extracted from terrorist technical. That was driven into civilian neighborhood to take hostages. Where they entered houses of unarmed civilians and removed them.



I'm talking about this scenario that has been seen over and over again. i'm not talking about police force or IDF at all. I'm talking about civilians defending themselves and not relying on the government.

Also why would an Israeli civilian attack the IDF? I'm sure I didn't say or suggest that.  :smiley_shrug:
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on October 11, 2023, 11:05:25 AMDo you really think that armed civilians are going to attack armed IDF forces at a check point on the suspicion that they might be bogus?
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flybynight

There's a reason why America hasn't been invaded since 1812. The reason is behind every blade of grass.   Equating  well armed and well organized terrorist groups  attacking heavily armed and protected targets  ,with for example what happened at the music festival or the beheading of infants   are two completely separate objectives.  I'm surprised  there has not been a similar style attack on American soil by foreign terrorist forces. I believe it's only a matter of time considering  the situation on the southern border. But to be sure ,when it does . It won't occur  in one of the states that doesn't have strict gun control laws. 
"Hey idiot, you should feel your pulse, not see it."  Echo 83

Raptor

Uomo Senza Nome & MacWa77ace

From what I have seen They took a play book from several unconventional operations and criminal car jackers.

For instance the German use of US MP uniforms in 1944 to sow confusion. They attacked IDF bases and used IDF uniforms and PD uniforms taken there.

They stole vehicles (they have Israeli license plates) to capture hostages and drove to other targets in these uniforms to fool the initial responders. The music festival survivors reported this type of behavior.

They also attacked civilian soft targets to draw away first responders and sow terror.

There were not the stereo typical "technical" Toyota PU truck with a DsK mounted on it.

Instead they used motorcycles with 2 people on the bike for terror attacks and to steal cars/trucks and for quick point attacks.

There are a lot of dead IDF troopers but I am willing to bet the vast majority of Israeli dead are civilians due to terror attacks.     

A lot of thought and planning went into this attack. It sounds like 2+ years of planning.
Folks you are on your own...Plan and act accordingly!

I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers. As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

DarkAxel

One thing I have noticed is the absolute lack of Ukraine War coverage in the MSM right now. Ukraine War live feeds are now about Israel and HAMAS. I bet Kyiv is very nervous right about now.


Israel's gun control regime is pretty restrictive. You have to have completed National Service. You have to have a compelling need, like living close to a hostile border or riding armored cars. You have to pass a very thorough background check and pass mental health screenings. You have to have a safe. If you are approved (40% were denied in 2018), you have to renew the license and jump through all the hoops every three years. If you don't renew your license you have to surrender your property to the police. And you can't keep more than 50 rounds on hand.

Here's the details of the "Looser" regime:

Quote"Any citizen who meets the detailed tests for carrying a private firearm due to self-defense and serving the security forces and is without a criminal or medical record will be required to undergo a telephone interview instead of a physical interview and will be able to receive permission to carry a firearm within a week," Ben-Gvir said. "(Self-defense tests: residence in an eligible settlement, rifle veterans 07 and above, officers in the rank of lieutenant and above and combatants in the rank of major and above in the IDF and the security forces, service in special units, firefighters, policemen, and workers and volunteers in the rescue forces)."

The second change allows anyone who had a permit to purchase a firearm in 2023 but didn't do so before the license expired to buy a gun without going through the process. He estimated that would apply to 4,000 citizens.







He said another 1,800 citizens would also be allowed to retrieve a gun they were forced to give up in the last six months because the owner didn't get "refresher training or renewal training."





He also raised the ammunition purchase limit for "conditional permits to carry firearms" from 50 to 100.
Source

They made it a smidge easier and now let them keep a little over three loaded AR mags instead of less than two.


Raptor

UFOs, aliens and Ukraine have disappeared from MSM.
Folks you are on your own...Plan and act accordingly!

I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers. As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

Uomo Senza Nome

Quote from: MacWa77ace on October 11, 2023, 11:27:51 AMUh, huh. Obviously.

Civilian hostage being extracted from terrorist technical. That was driven into civilian neighborhood to take hostages. Where they entered houses of unarmed civilians and removed them.



I'm talking about this scenario that has been seen over and over again. i'm not talking about police force or IDF at all. I'm talking about civilians defending themselves and not relying on the government.

Also why would an Israeli civilian attack the IDF? I'm sure I didn't say or suggest that.  :smiley_shrug:
Quote from: Uomo Senza Nome on October 11, 2023, 11:05:25 AMDo you really think that armed civilians are going to attack armed IDF forces at a check point on the suspicion that they might be bogus?

That IS an IDF vehicle. It was reported stolen weeks ago.
"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

Uomo Senza Nome


QuoteOne thing I have noticed is the absolute lack of Ukraine War coverage in the MSM right now. Ukraine War live feeds are now about Israel and HAMAS. I bet Kyiv is very nervous right about now.
They are absolutely still there, just not at the top of the feed.
"It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid. "

"There's plain few problems can't be solved with a little sweat and hard work."

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