On-set negligence involving firearms

Started by majorhavoc, October 23, 2021, 10:36:15 AM

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majorhavoc

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/tearful-alec-baldwin-asked-why-he-was-handed-hot-gun-after-fatal-shooting-on-set-report/ar-AAPPXSK?ocid=msedgntp

Looks like I was correct in my prediction that this prop gun was actually a real gun and a "prop" only in the sense that it was being used on a movie set.

Personally, I don't truly blame AB for the Hollywood safety status quo, but I am genuinely shocked that the established on-set safety protocols break the first two cardinal rules of gun safety right off the bat:

1) Assume EVERY gun is loaded with live ammunition even if the person handing it to you says it isn't.
2) YOU are responsible for where the gun is pointed.  Don't point it at anything/anyone you don't intend to destroy.   

In spite of all that, this wouldn't have happened if it were either Keanu Reeves or Steven Segal handling the "prop".  Those two know how to properly handle a firearm.
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RickOShea

We've been talking about this in Firearms chat. It's looking like there may have been other prop-gun "mishaps" on the set, along with a bit of discontent amongst some of the crew about working conditions, in the days leading up to the "incident".

As I understand it, AB was also one of the producers of this low-budget flick. so while he may end-up not being criminally culpable, I wouldn't want to be him when the civil suits start dropping.

Anianna

I know actual guns are used as props, but there are a lot of strict rules around their use.  How live ammunition came anywhere near a prop gun is beyond me.  Did they just use some random gun for this?  There's also rules that require training in regards to how guns can be handled on set.  Two crew being hit is a clear violation of those handling rules that Baldwin should have been trained on before he was handed a firearm.  These people were playing fast and lose with solid rules resulting in devastating consequences.
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flybynight

He should have taken a NRA gun safety course.  :smiley_chinrub:
"Hey idiot, you should feel your pulse, not see it."  Echo 83

Lambykins

I can understand how one person is accidentally shot in this situation.
However...how were two shot (one fatally) ?
Did the bullet pass through one victim and into the other or were multiple shots fired?
Ahhhh, went back and read article. Apparently that is exactly what happened. Bullet passed through one victim and into the other.
I could also understand if the weapon was being used in a scene and an actor was shot, as in what happened to Brandon Lee.
Neither of the victims was an actor.
Why would the weapon be aimed at a producer or a crew member?
Even for low budget movies, weapons are supposed to be thoroughly checked and rechecked to ensure they are properly prepared (and safe) for whatever scene they are used in. Many new rules went into effect after B. Lees' death.
My understanding is that there HAS to be a specific weapon prop-master on set if any firearms are used. Said prop-master should have detected that an unfired bullet was jammed in the firearm (as is my understanding of what happened).
Should be interesting to see the fallout from this tragedy.
"But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you." Taken

"There is no such thing as a fair fight. Fight dirty EVERY time. Dirty fighters win, fair fighters lose. Every fight is a fight for your life. Fight to win. Fight dirty." My dad

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majorhavoc

Quote from: Lambykins on October 23, 2021, 03:40:56 PM
Why would the weapon be aimed at a producer or a crew member?
Even for low budget movies, weapons are supposed to be thoroughly checked and rechecked to ensure they are properly prepared (and safe) for whatever scene they are used in. Many new rules went into effect after B. Lees' death.
My understanding is that there HAS to be a specific weapon prop-master on set if any firearms are used. Said prop-master should have detected that an unfired bullet was jammed in the firearm (as is my understanding of what happened).

There are plenty of movie scenes where you see the weapon discharge from the victim's point of view.  To get that, the gun has to be pointed directly at the camera. It's a money shot, so to speak, but therein lies the danger.

As far as a prop master being the one who is ultimately responsible?  Yes, apparently that's true.  But  it speaks to a) why I don't actually blame Alec Baldwin (although he's going to have to live with this), and b) my utter astonishment that the established on-set safety rules COMPLETELY ignore the two most fundamental concepts in firearm safety.

I seriously doubt any actor with real firearm training would have allowed this tragedy to happen.  Certainly not point the prop at anyone.  Just thinking about doing that gives me the skivvies.  And if they were directed to point the prop gun at the camera or at another actor and then pull the trigger, such firearm-trained actors would have take the thirty seconds to personally assure themselves the weapon isn't hot.  Certainly not rely on what the prop master tells you.

I'm floored that this ever seemed to anyone like a responsible arrangement.  It completely insulates actors from their blindingly obvious role in handling those weapons responsibly.  If it's a plastic airsoft gun then fine, let the untrained actor point it wherever the hell s/he wants.  But you bring a real firearm onto the set?  You hire a consultant to spend a few days with the actor so he or she knows what the hell she's doing.  At a bare minimum, teach them to assume the weapon is hot and to never point it at anyone.  If the script calls for that, give the actor a plastic gun and then add the digital discharge effect post-production. 

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12_Gauge_Chimp

From the little info on filmmaking I know, I know there's these little things called "non guns". Basically they're gun shaped pieces of solid plastic or metal that cannot be made to fire at all.

I know they're available in various shapes and the cost isn't that high. If nothing else, use one of those blue training guns and spray paint it to look more realistic if need be.

There's a lesson in this somewhere to all filmmakers, be they professionals or amateurs. Heck, there's probably a bunch of lessons here.

RickOShea

It appears that the armorer for the production, the daughter of the famous Thell Reed himself, has deleted all of her social media accounts. This could, of course, just be due to the massive amounts of online hate that always follows when something happens.

Lambykins

Pretty good analysis. Compares the Rust shooting accident and the Brandon Lee shooting death.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4W7kbQA8AU&list=TLPQMjMxMDIwMjH68J3awj6sIQ&index=4
"But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you." Taken

"There is no such thing as a fair fight. Fight dirty EVERY time. Dirty fighters win, fair fighters lose. Every fight is a fight for your life. Fight to win. Fight dirty." My dad

"Am I dangerous? Ask any of my surviving exes..." Me

RoneKiln

Thanks MajorHavoc for giving this its own thread and pulling the discussion out of the general firearm chat. It's a great opportunity to discuss both safety and public perceptions of firearms.

Do you think it might be worth changing the title of the thread from "accident" to "negligence?"

I feel for the armorer as well. My understanding is she did not hand the pistol to Mr Baldwin. Someone else did. I wonder if someone bulldozed over her. Especially with the allegations of such a disrespectful and rushed environment on the set.

Imagine being 24, fairly new to the industry, and then having to deal with such a chaotic and rushed environment.
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--Raptor

MPMalloy


SCBrian

What I always find interesting with wiki, is the amount of back and forth on the editorial side...   especially on the hot topic ones...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rust_shooting_incident&action=history
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Raptor

I have watched the discussion of this "accident" and "accidental shooting" with dismay.
There was no accident. The trigger was intentionally pulled by an idiot who broke every sensible firearm safety rule for the most stupid of reasons ...entertainment. 

This is a negligent discharge by careless and grossly negligent people.

It makes no difference if the idiot was handed a "hot gun". He is responsible for his irresponsible actions.
He should have done what we would do when handed any firearm. Check it to see if it is safe to handle. I do that in a gun store when inspecting a firearm. I do that on the range when handed a firearm. I do that at home when picking up a fire arm.

From my understanding dummy rounds for a movie will be empty of powder, a BB in the casing to rattle around to prove no powder AND have no primer. So checking it even in the chamber is easy by looking for the empty primer hole. No hole?  Call for a "full stop" and unload it and inspect it. A blank round has the primer but no bullet. That should be obvious by examining the front of the cylinder.

Real ammo dumped into the blank supply? No excuse. Blanks can kill. Blanks and live ammo should be treated exactly the same way including safe direction, back stop etc.

In my book when you accept a firearm you now own everything it may discharge and the consequences thereof.

The idiot needs to get out his check book and compensate the victim's family and the law needs to decide if this negligence rises to the level of criminal actions. Stupidity is not against the law and this may not rise to that level but that is for the courts to decide.




Full disclosure:
The idiot trigger puller playing the victim here really annoys me. 



 
I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers.

As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

EBuff75

George Clooney may not have been intending to throw some shade, but that's essentially what he does in this interview when he points out the safety protocols which are supposed to be followed.  Here's a quote from the article:

Quote"Every single time I'm handed a gun on set, I look at it, I open it, I show it to the person I'm pointing it to, we show it to the crew," he said. "Every single take you hand it back to the armorer when you're done, and you do it again.

Granted, some of his attention to detail on this might be due to his friendship with Brandon Lee, but at least it sounds like he's very familiar with safe gun handling on sets. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/16/entertainment/george-clooney-rust-shooting/index.html
Information - it's all a battle for information. You have to know what's happening if you're going to do anything about it. - Tom Clancy, Patriot Games

majorhavoc

Quote from: EBuff75 on November 16, 2021, 03:23:57 PM
George Clooney may not have been intending to throw some shade, but that's essentially what he does in this interview when he points out the safety protocols which are supposed to be followed.  Here's a quote from the article:

Quote"Every single time I'm handed a gun on set, I look at it, I open it, I show it to the person I'm pointing it to, we show it to the crew," he said. "Every single take you hand it back to the armorer when you're done, and you do it again.

Granted, some of his attention to detail on this might be due to his friendship with Brandon Lee, but at least it sounds like he's very familiar with safe gun handling on sets. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/16/entertainment/george-clooney-rust-shooting/index.html

I just read that article today and was surprised by a) Clooney's connection to Brandon Lee and b) his familiarity of firearm safety.  As I recall, he also says in that article that if he's on a set and handed a "prop" six-gun, he checks it thoroughly and then, just to be absolutely sure, points it at the ground and pulls the trigger six times. 

Throwing shade or no, this needs to become the standard of care that all actors must adhere to.
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Raptor

Lucky Gunner has an excellent article and a great video including a gel test on a blank firearm.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-blank-ammo-can-be-deadly/
I will never claim to have all the answers. Depending upon the subject; I am also aware that I may not have all the questions much less the answers.

As a result I am always willing to listen to others and work with them to arrive at the right answers to the applicable questions.

MPMalloy

Quote from: EBuff75 on November 16, 2021, 03:23:57 PMGeorge Clooney may not have been intending to throw some shade, but that's essentially what he does in this interview when he points out the safety protocols which are supposed to be followed.  Here's a quote from the article: 
Quote"Every single time I'm handed a gun on set, I look at it, I open it, I show it to the person I'm pointing it to, we show it to the crew," he said. "Every single take you hand it back to the armorer when you're done, and you do it again.
Granted, some of his attention to detail on this might be due to his friendship with Brandon Lee, but at least it sounds like he's very familiar with safe gun handling on sets. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/16/entertainment/george-clooney-rust-shooting/index.html
This.  Is.  It.

majorhavoc

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Anianna

Quote from: majorhavoc on January 19, 2023, 12:14:14 PMI was wrong.

Alec Baldwin to be charged with involuntary manslaughter
And the armorer, as well. 

From that article, it looks like they're blaming him for carelessness in not checking the gun first.  I've been annoyed at how little information has been released in this case.  As I understand it, he wasn't even supposed to be pointing the gun in the direction he pointed it.  I want to know if that was intentional or just stupid.  Was it really manslaughter or murder?  Either way, a manslaughter charge will be easier to make stick in court, but I still wonder.  Too many things in this case never added up.
Feed science, not zombies!

Failure is the path of least persistence.

∩(=^_^=)

Lambykins

#19
Quote from: Anianna on January 19, 2023, 01:50:46 PM
Quote from: majorhavoc on January 19, 2023, 12:14:14 PMI was wrong.

Alec Baldwin to be charged with involuntary manslaughter
And the armorer, as well. 

From that article, it looks like they're blaming him for carelessness in not checking the gun first.  I've been annoyed at how little information has been released in this case.  As I understand it, he wasn't even supposed to be pointing the gun in the direction he pointed it.  I want to know if that was intentional or just stupid.  Was it really manslaughter or murder?  Either way, a manslaughter charge will be easier to make stick in court, but I still wonder.  Too many things in this case never added up.

Alec Baldwin has frequently been characterized as "arrogant" in the tabloids and Hollywood community. From reports I have read about the shooting, Baldwin jumped immediately to damage control mode at the time of the incident. His actions (and inactions) in the hours directly after the shooting will likely play a big part in whatever trials/hearings come from this.
I imagine this will be widely reported on and the nightly news and the tabloids will have a field day with it.

Edited to add this article...the four things Baldwin did wrong after the shooting:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-involuntary-070054871.html
"But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you." Taken

"There is no such thing as a fair fight. Fight dirty EVERY time. Dirty fighters win, fair fighters lose. Every fight is a fight for your life. Fight to win. Fight dirty." My dad

"Am I dangerous? Ask any of my surviving exes..." Me

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